How Many BW Converted Workboats Still Exist?

[cheshire~rose]

I am hoping some of those members of this forum with a good knowledge of historic boats can help wth this question.

 

As many of you are aware I am involved with Python. She has been under the custodianship of The Chesterfield Canal Trust for around 4 years. In that time a great deal has been done to conserve her and there have been a few adaptatons made to ensure the health, safety and welfare of the crew. The majority of the adaptations have not in any way altered the fabric of the boat as she was when we took delivery of her. I am in the process of speaking to the people who were involved in her transition from a guano covered rusting hulk handed over to us by BW to the vessel we have now so I can ensure we have a proper archive of what has been done, when, and why. I believe that just because the previous 80 years of the vessels life have very little documentation it does not mean that we should not fully document her life now. Her custodians in 50 years time might be very grateful for it!

 

While I believe than when many people see Python they see a vessel that was butchered by BW and little more I believe that this period of her working life was just as significant as any prior period of her working life and so as an example of a BW workboat, devoid of any shiny brass to polish or fancy ropework painting she still has her place.

 

My question is how many other examples of a boat modified by BW to do a job of work for them still exist in the form created by BW? I know many boats were shortened or had different cabins put on. Some have remained short but the BW cabin has been removed and replaced with something more suited to the owners current requirements to use it as a historic or leisure boat. Others have been reconstructed to represent what the boat would have looked like when it left the builders all those decades ago.

 

So what boats do still remain as BW intended?

What booats have been reconstructed?

What boats have had adaptations that have altered the fabric of the boat from that which BW created?

 

Can you help me build a picture of Python's significance as a historic vessel?

 

 

[Derek R.]

Tall order.

 

There's RADIANT, TUCANA, images of SICKLE as she was but not now, TYCHO, LING (I think), and others will have to add more.

 

: Your signature.

 

If your opinion was correct, true, and valid, it would still be your opinion whether it was shared with all or none. But opinions are often very personal things, and influenced by a myriad of personal experiences - not all necessarily based upon fact or truth, but none the less valid to the opinion holder.

 

By definition, to quote a dictionary: "an opinion is that which is held by belief or conclusion held with confidence, but not substantiated by positive knowledge or proof."

 

Therefore a fact, is not an opinion. Truth, may not be an opinion. Validity, is defined through testing a theory, and once tested becomes true or false, and therefore cannot be an opinion.

[Timleech]

Kenilworth still has its lopsided BW forecabin/tool store, even though the hull has been extended and new Northwich-style back cabin and steel conversion cabin fitted.

 

Tim

[cheshire~rose]

Ling has undergone a reconstruction to reflect a former part of her life.

 

Radiant and Tucana both stayed full length I think?

 

I know very little about Tycho

 

There is also Panther - Python's sister

[Derek R.]

http://www.hnboc.org.uk/boats/tycho-0

 

TYCHO, currently owned by 'Speedwheel'.

 

Edit; Those typos again!

Edited September 23, 2013 by Derek R.

[cheshire~rose]

Thanks for that Derek

 

We passed Tycho yesterday on The Shroppie It is much easier to appreciate the boat when you can see an uninterupted side view of it than when I have seen it previously on a pontoon at Alvecote. I was actually doing some reading about researching a boats significance as we went past and I did wonder at the time if the cabin/engine arrangment is still as it would have been intended when converted by BW. It appears that is the case

[madcat]

Radiant is very much preserved in BW workboat form including the paint colour and cabin fitments.

Purton is I think still in BW workboat layout.

 

Edit for spellchecker madness.

Edited September 23, 2013 by madcat

[cheshire~rose]

Thanks for that Madcat

 

It is a huge help being give the names as Google can be a friend. It appears that Purton is 56' so has not been returned to it's original length. It is hard to tell from the images I can find on the net if the cabin has been modified since the 80's when BW sold her but I suspect it might not have been

[alan_fincher]

Arcas still in active CRT service

Don't know current status of Aynho

Caldy

Carnaby

Renton

Slough (the push tug one!)

 

Not sure about how representative of BW days Sagitta now is?

 

Cambourne has BW cabin untouched at back, but is now converted to match forward of that.

Thanks for that Madcat

 

It is a huge help being give the names as Google can be a friend. It appears that Purton is 56' so has not been returned to it's original length. It is hard to tell from the images I can find on the net if the cabin has been modified since the 80's when BW sold her but I suspect it might not have been

I think it is fairly unmodified but am not certain.

[cheshire~rose]

I knew there would be a few on any list you has Alan.

 

It seems there is scant information about several of them via google. I will have to dig a little deeper later when I have more time

 

Where BW responsible for shortening up Sudbury or was a private owner?

[Laurence Hogg]

"Barnet" is still in her "as supplied" by BW state with only the addition of a modern large weedhatch and access deck as a change. Mast, stands and running gear were added to the hold too, otherwise she is unchanged but cared for a lot better.

 

"Tucana" needed extensive work and the cabin was unusable so she will not be returning to "as found" state but refitted for educational use but in a correct looking manner.

Edited September 23, 2013 by Laurence Hogg

[cheshire~rose]

Thanks Laurence, it is a shame the cabin cannot be salvaged but I found some info about her on the net and it is really good that she is being salvaged

 

When you say "correct" is that correct as per the later BW design or correct as her builder made her?

Edited September 23, 2013 by cheshire~rose

[alan_fincher]

Now I'm home on a proper keyboard, I'll add a few more thoughts.

 

Mention has been made of "Sickle" & "Tycho".

 

However, of course these "Middle Northwich" boats, (along with "Sextans" & "Theophilus", and "Large Northwich" "Renton") were all converted to ice-breaker tugs in 1942 by the Ministry of War Transport, so their conversion pre-dates nationalisation of the waterways, and hence DIWE or BW ownership by at least 6 years.

Of these five, only Sickle and Renton stayed on the BW maintenance fleet long enough to get butchered about to have a "reverse layout" cabin, with the engine moved to the rear, and worker accommodation ahead of that. Of course when it was restored by the Parrotts "Sickle" had this removed, and was given a replica Northwich riveted cabin, based on dimensions taken from "Tycho".

 

However "Renton" has passed to the custody of the Herefordshire and Gloucestershire Canal Trust, and like "Python" and "Panther" has retained its "reverse layout modern" BW cabin, and been given a modern paint job that pertains to the trust, rather than having any historical significance. "Renton" however remains rather different from those two Joshers, (and indeed the many other boats shortened under BW ownership), because all BW did to it was to change the cabin/engine configuration, and remove the ice ram. The actual shortening had occurred much earlier, long before BW had it.

[FadeToScarlet]

Willow spent a good deal of time as a BW workboat- or, rather, a not-work boat, because it tended to stay moored up, apparently.

 

I like the crane that it had in the hold, though.

[FMC Ling 317]

I am hoping some of those members of this forum with a good knowledge of historic boats can help wth this question.

 

As many of you are aware I am involved with Python. She has been under the custodianship of The Chesterfield Canal Trust for around 4 years. In that time a great deal has been done to conserve her and there have been a few adaptatons made to ensure the health, safety and welfare of the crew. The majority of the adaptations have not in any way altered the fabric of the boat as she was when we took delivery of her. I am in the process of speaking to the people who were involved in her transition from a guano covered rusting hulk handed over to us by BW to the vessel we have now so I can ensure we have a proper archive of what has been done, when, and why. I believe that just because the previous 80 years of the vessels life have very little documentation it does not mean that we should not fully document her life now. Her custodians in 50 years time might be very grateful for it!

 

While I believe than when many people see Python they see a vessel that was butchered by BW and little more I believe that this period of her working life was just as significant as any prior period of her working life and so as an example of a BW workboat, devoid of any shiny brass to polish or fancy ropework painting she still has her place.

 

My question is how many other examples of a boat modified by BW to do a job of work for them still exist in the form created by BW? I know many boats were shortened or had different cabins put on. Some have remained short but the BW cabin has been removed and replaced with something more suited to the owners current requirements to use it as a historic or leisure boat. Others have been reconstructed to represent what the boat would have looked like when it left the builders all those decades ago.

 

So what boats do still remain as BW intended?

What booats have been reconstructed?

What boats have had adaptations that have altered the fabric of the boat from that which BW created?

 

Can you help me build a picture of Python's significance as a historic vessel?

 

 

Do you meen only boats that were cut down and/or had bw cabins fitted rather than boats still as they are after they left bw's care? As some had there bw cabins removed by those they were on lease to!

"Barnet" is still in her "as supplied" by BW state with only the addition of a modern large weedhatch and access deck as a change. Mast, stands and running gear were added to the hold too, otherwise she is unchanged but cared for a lot better.

 

"Tucana" needed extensive work and the cabin was unusable so she will not be returning to "as found" state but refitted for educational use but in a correct looking manner.

not forgetting the bw cabin was cut off in the late 90s

[cheshire~rose]

Thanks everyone for your your help with this.

 

What am trying to work out is how many examples of a "Python" type boat still exisit out there. Panther is the obvious one being Python's sister but her cabin is completely different. It would appear Slough & Carnaby are contenders as is Arcas. I suspect Aynho is too if anyone has any information about what has happened to her? Renton might actually have been the boat that made the blue print for the others if the date of conversion I have read is correct. Alder also appear to have a similar cabin but have a far more varied pedigree of of bits going to make the boat it are today.

 

Dave and I are scouring the net to find photo's or information to help decide what boats have Python like qualites to them. The common denominator seems to be boats that were converted at Bulls Bridge during the 70's and 80's.

 

My understanding of the others is as follows (please feel free to correct me if you think I have got it wrong)

 

I have discounted Sickle & Tycho as they are ice breakers (regardless of the fact that it was not BW that converted them)

 

While Tucana's cabin is like Python's if this is to be replaced then without knowing whether it will be returned to her original style "as built" or a replacement of the BW style cabin I can't say if she will be like Python or not but she is a full length boat anyway.

 

It appears that Radiant never had her original cabin removed - just an adataptation for the water pump to make her a fire boat. This was also done by the Ministry Of War Transport and is not a BW conversion

 

Kenilworth - I can find very little information about this boat but Tim has already indicated it has had the cabin replaced

 

Ling we know has been reconstructed (and no David you can't start a cabin collection)

 

Purton was converted in the 60's and I suspect the cabin may be original? if not then it is of the original style rather than a reverse layout

 

I can find no information on Caldy at all. Can anyone tell me what she is/was

 

Lacerta appears to have a traditional cabin

 

Dorado was another name that popped up in my research but it does not have the reverse layout cabin

 

Sagitta and Barnet do not have the same style of cabin as Python

 

 

Does the name Frank Hyder (sp?) mean anything to anyone in connection with Bulls Bridge and boat modification?

[Speedwheel]

Thanks for that Derek

 

We passed Tycho yesterday on The Shroppie It is much easier to appreciate the boat when you can see an uninterupted side view of it than when I have seen it previously on a pontoon at Alvecote. I was actually doing some reading about researching a boats significance as we went past and I did wonder at the time if the cabin/engine arrangment is still as it would have been intended when converted by BW. It appears that is the case

 

What time? I was on there for some of the day.

[cheshire~rose]

 

What time? I was on there for some of the day.

 

For a moment there we were both trying to work out what time it would have been that we passed. Then I remembered I took a photo of Tycho and so according to the data on the card we passed at 12:37pm

 

You have to love technology!

 

She was locked up so I am guessing you were not there at that time

 

[Timleech]

Here's Kenilworth in approximately BW style in 1995, though I don't imagine it was clothed up or that colour scheme:

 

 

Tim

Edited September 23, 2013 by Timleech

[cheshire~rose]

Thanks for that Tim. That looks a rather interesting boat!

[cheshire~rose]

I realised that to anyone who is not as au fait with these boats as many of the experts there are a lot of words but very few pictures. I think it might be useful to demonstrate the type of cabin style I am trying to find among existing boats. Most of the photo's have been found via the internet places like HNBC and so I am unsure of the original source in most cases.

 

Here is Python:

 

Panther

 

(notice the curved top to the cabin edges)

 

 

Slough

 

Carnaby (Photo by Dave Hamster)

 

 

Arcas

The only photo's I seem to find of Renton are from Alan Fincher.

 

Reading what I have found again this morning it appears Renton was also turned into an ice breaker like Sickle. I know it was changed again later by BW but I wonder if Alan knows whether it still has the ice breaker type hull? if so I will group it with Sickle and Tycho in my head rather than with Python and Panther!

Alder can be seen at this link:

 

http://www.h-g-canal.org.uk/html/heritage_boats.htm

 

I am unable to find any images of Aynho anywhere but I suspect it would have a similar cabin to those shown above. Does anyone know how long ago it was that it was sold to it's new owner and vanished? Does anyone have any photo's of it from prior to this?

Edited September 24, 2013 by cheshire~rose

[Derek R.]

DORADO was at 'Flyboat in '99 awaiting work. The cabin looked original and in very poor condition, took no photo I'm afraid but wouldn't have met the criteria.

 

Edit:

 

RENTON's blade was cut off long ago, and reputedly in the hold as ballast - so Ian reckons.

Edited September 24, 2013 by Derek R.

[cheshire~rose]

DORADO was at 'Flyboat in '99 awaiting work. The cabin looked original and in very poor condition, took no photo I'm afraid but wouldn't have met the criteria.

 

Thanks Derek. We met the crew of Dorado at Markey Drayton earlier on this year. She does look a lovely boat but I can confirm she has the traditional style cabin.

[alan_fincher]

If you are discounting Sickle and Tycho because of the history of their 1942 conversion to icebreakers, them you also need to discount Renton, as its early history is the same.

 

I'm doubtful Renton received its modern BW cabin or reverse layout very early. I would have thought it one of the later ones but could be wrong. What date has been suggested to you, please?

[cheshire~rose]

I will have to try and dig back through the various web sources I found last night Alan. From memory I read somewhere that it had a lot of work done on it back in the early 70's by BW - I think 1974?

 

I am wondering if I ought to discount it looking at this image I found today

 

Photo by R-P-M

 

Renton is in the foreground and Alder in the background.

 

Do you know if Renton still has the ice breaker style hull like Sickle or was this also changed by BW when they altered her?