New owners preparing to take a JP3M to sea - help!

[by'eck]

 

Ouch!

[Giant]

Good to see that you have cleaned the fuel tank. The corrosion was caused by water in the old fuel. I do not know of a protective application that is fuel proof. Leading with solder from Frosts would work but not practical.

 

I have searched around and it seems there are a number of tank sealing/protection products which essentially create a thin layer of polyurethane over the surface.

 

http://www.frost.co.uk/por15-fuel-tank-sealers.html

http://www.rust.co.uk/products/product/413135/0003-slosh-ethanol-resistant-tank-seal-kit/

 

Since it may be hard to completely prevent future water getting in, I am inclined to apply one of these. The instructions describe application to a vehicle tank by removing the tank and rotating it to slosh the stuff around all over, but since I only want to apply to the bottom I guess it can be done in situ in this case.

 

Fire regulation prohibit the use of rubber piping and clips on a fuel system. Copper and compression fittings are needed. Support the filters rigidly and use a loop of copper to alow for engine movment.

 

Righty ho.

 

My water pump dripped and most people Said 'oh they all do the seals are a bit worn'. When I took it apart the whole thing was completely knackered and barely working. Tim Leech of this forum did a superb restoration job. It's an easy job to pull the pump off and check just in case.

 

OK. I was thinking of stripping down the pump anyway just to check the leathers and be sure I knew how to change them out quickly if needed. So I will go ahead and do that and see how things look inside.

 

Your picture shows water that is most likely to have come up around the head studs. It's quite common with JPs in marine use and is usually caused by a build up of sludge and rust in the block. This restricts the water flow in parts of the engine and causes hot and cold spots. The coarse thread on the studs will allow water past if they have not had sealant on them. JP3M blocks crack from the front corner of the block nearest to the injector pump in a line along the block top face below the changover valves. Its one of the areas affected by frost damage too. It may be that you have pressure building as a result which may be passing the studs or has cracked the block.

If you look up the CRJ Skinner Welding website and scroll through their gallery you will come across some pictures of a JP2 block of ours that cracked as described under repair. It shows exactly what I describe.

 

Blimey, that is a hell of a crack. Amazing to see that even something like that can be repaired though.

 

I suppose the next step then is to remove the cylinder heads and have a look at the top of the block? And then if not cracked, have a look at sealing the studs?

[MoominPapa]

I have searched around and it seems there are a number of tank sealing/protection products which essentially create a thin layer of polyurethane over the surface.

 

http://www.frost.co.uk/por15-fuel-tank-sealers.html

http://www.rust.co.uk/products/product/413135/0003-slosh-ethanol-resistant-tank-seal-kit/

 

Since it may be hard to completely prevent future water getting in, I am inclined to apply one of these.

I thought your primary goal in all of this was to avoid a sudden engine stop whilst at sea? Are you absolutely sure that you're not going to end up with filters/pumps/injectors clogged with tank sealant? That would raise a wry smile, but only after you'd been safely rescued.

 

MP.

[steamraiser2]

 

I have searched around and it seems there are a number of tank sealing/protection products which essentially create a thin layer of polyurethane over the surface.

 

http://www.frost.co.uk/por15-fuel-tank-sealers.html

http://www.rust.co.uk/products/product/413135/0003-slosh-ethanol-resistant-tank-seal-kit/

 

Since it may be hard to completely prevent future water getting in, I am inclined to apply one of these. The instructions describe application to a vehicle tank by removing the tank and rotating it to slosh the stuff around all over, but since I only want to apply to the bottom I guess it can be done in situ in this case.

 

 

Righty ho.

 

 

OK. I was thinking of stripping down the pump anyway just to check the leathers and be sure I knew how to change them out quickly if needed. So I will go ahead and do that and see how things look inside.

 

 

Blimey, that is a hell of a crack. Amazing to see that even something like that can be repaired though.

 

I suppose the next step then is to remove the cylinder heads and have a look at the top of the block? And then if not cracked, have a look at sealing the studs?

 

 

Tip of the iceberg methinks. In all probability you could be well into major refurbishment territory . Saltwater duty engines do tend to corrode around the stud holes and ,when removed, dont go back in without retapping or in extreme cases helicoiling. I think you need to consider carefully if your engine is in good enough condition to take you safely to sea? Not a place to be with a knackered engine is it.

[Giant]

I think you need to consider carefully if your engine is in good enough condition to take you safely to sea? Not a place to be with a knackered engine is it.

 

If the engine is not in good enough condition then the only way it is going to sea will be behind a tug.

 

If your professional opinion is that the existing evidence proves beyond doubt the engine is knackered, then we will do that and tackle the engine later.

 

If the cause is not certain then I will take the heads off and investigate further.

[steamraiser2]

My professional opinion is that no one should go to sea in a vessel that is not 100% fit for the voyage. Your engine is showing signs of trouble even under the low loadings it has recently experienced inland. Hard slogging at sea is an entirely different proposition. If it dies on you you could well be dead in the water, no pun intended I assure you.

Edited September 16, 2013 by steamraiser2

[Batavia]

 

I have searched around and it seems there are a number of tank sealing/protection products which essentially create a thin layer of polyurethane over the surface.

 

http://www.frost.co.uk/por15-fuel-tank-sealers.html

http://www.rust.co.uk/products/product/413135/0003-slosh-ethanol-resistant-tank-seal-kit/

 

Since it may be hard to completely prevent future water getting in, I am inclined to apply one of these. The instructions describe application to a vehicle tank by removing the tank and rotating it to slosh the stuff around all over, but since I only want to apply to the bottom I guess it can be done in situ in this case.

 

 

All the major coating manufacturers make 2 pack epoxy products (such as International's Interline 984) that are designed for the internal coating of white oil storage tanks and which with neither affect, nor be affected by, the fuel in the tank. One of these would be greatly superior to some of the "magic mixtures" sold for amateur use.

 

The challenge would be to obtain the stuff in small quantities - and to prepare the surface properly.

 

Chris G

[flatplane8]

I had similar leakage round the head joint and long story short, had the heads refurbished including a small skim. I had it on two out of the three, but it seems ok now, even after a tidal trip down to London. There is a thread about the head work further back in th Lister section here.

[George94]

If your tank is not sitting in the bottom of the boat, I would recommend fitting a drain and valve onto a three inch length of three inch diameter pipe, welded to the lowest part of the tank. Any water in the tank will find its way there, and all you have to do is to open the valve occasionally to see if there is any water. Drain it off if there is.

 

The diesel will then protect the tank from rust. No need for expensive sealing which might not work.

 

BTW, the changeover valves are there for a reason, and that reason is to aid starting. In normal use, the valves should be opened to lower the compression. Totally crazy to risk running the engine fast with them closed.

[Giant]

So we began today on dismantling things for a proper look. Manifolds disconnected, injectors out, valve rockers removed from the first cylinder - but then defeated by our Whitworth sockets stopping short of the 3/4" size needed for the nuts on the tubular studs. Will be picking that size socket up tomorrow to continue. The three stud nuts that we started loosening before getting to the first tubular one, moved without trouble at about 110lb/ft torque, which is promising. We did manage to break one of the fuel lines while removing the injectors but it's on the spill side, so low pressure and easily repaired.

 

The water passages now visible into the heads and cooling manifold look surprisingly good for things that have had hot raw water going through them for decades. There is a thin layer of orange residue on the inner surfaces and a bit of flaking in places, but no sign of deep corrosion or any thick sludge that would impede water flow. It may turn out to be a different story further down in the block, but we'll see.

 

There is a fair amount of black gunk built up on the injector nozzles:

 

 

Although they seem to have been working fine, whilst we have them out I am inclined to get them looked over, especially as there is a specialist just down the road in Scunthorpe (http://www.pslaterfie.co.uk/injectors.php).

 

I had similar leakage round the head joint and long story short, had the heads refurbished including a small skim. I had it on two out of the three, but it seems ok now, even after a tidal trip down to London. There is a thread about the head work further back in th Lister section here.

 

Thanks for this - that thread (http://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=38575 for anyone looking) is a goldmine of useful info!

 

If your tank is not sitting in the bottom of the boat, I would recommend fitting a drain and valve onto a three inch length of three inch diameter pipe, welded to the lowest part of the tank. Any water in the tank will find its way there, and all you have to do is to open the valve occasionally to see if there is any water. Drain it off if there is.

 

The diesel will then protect the tank from rust. No need for expensive sealing which might not work.

 

The tanks are mounted high up on each side of the engine room and already have drain valves in the bottom so this is easily checked in future.

 

We have definitely settled on leaving the active tank as bare metal for the time being, although I'm going to investigate the two-part epoxy systems suggested above for when we eventually restore the second tank. If we find something that's definitely good, we might then apply to both at that time.

[frangar]

Can recommend Peter slater for the fuel system work. The orange stuff is fairly normal. You can usually see from discolouration on the head gaskets where they have been blowing.

 

Check that the liners sit slightly proud of the block. It might be worth getting the heads slightly skimmed just to make sure they are true.

 

When you put it all back together I would suggest using wellseal to coat the faces with. I also torqued my heads down....then left it for a week or so and rechecked them before refitting all the rocker gear etc to give the new studs and gaskets a chance to bed in. I would also try and get some original head gaskets. There are some on eBay at the moment. Some of the Indian copies aren't great.

 

Cheers

 

Gareth

[Giant]

Check that the liners sit slightly proud of the block. It might be worth getting the heads slightly skimmed just to make sure they are true.

 

When you put it all back together I would suggest using wellseal to coat the faces with. I also torqued my heads down....then left it for a week or so and rechecked them before refitting all the rocker gear etc to give the new studs and gaskets a chance to bed in. I would also try and get some original head gaskets. There are some on eBay at the moment. Some of the Indian copies aren't great.

 

We have already picked up three gaskets and shims. The gaskets are old stock stamped as Made in England by Coopers, shims are original Lister parts still in their packaging. Got some Wellseal too.

 

We're expecting to need to skim the heads, probably by the place in Coventry you recommended in the other thread, unless we turn up somewhere promising that's closer. But going to have a good look with a straightedge and some feelers first to understand what's going on.

[frangar]

Depending on the bump clearances you might not need the shims but if you have them it's good just in case! My engine didn't btw. Well done with the coopers gaskets! How are the studs looking? They have been known to snap at the block due to the shoulder by the thread. If you are thinking they look a bit suspect then it's less stress to change them now than have one snap as you torque the heads down! Get a good quality stud extractor and use plenty of plusgas if you need to change them. It's a lot of work and expense but at least you will know what work has been done.

 

Please keep us posted & don't be afraid to ask anything however daft it seems.

 

Cheers

 

Gareth

[Alastair]

I'm late to this thread, but it is interesting.

 

Seems like you have most of it covered. Do take some 'sea trials' in the Humber. With a GPS do a run up and then down the same channel for a set distance - average the speeds recorded by the GPS and you have your speed over ground. It is good to know this for navigation.

 

You say '48 hours'; are you heading for London? If so, I've done the trip in the reverse direction, in a smaller barge.

 

You've concentrated on the engine. Now go over your steering gear. Check it all works perfectly, then get some spares for bits that might break. Consider how you'd rig emergency steering gear if something breaks.

 

Lights - you'll need nav lights. What is the charging output from your engine?

[Giant]

OK, 3/4" Whitworth socket acquired so we are about to dive back into the engine room and get the head stud nuts off.

 

I have noticed the gasket between the No 1 cylinder water outlet and the water outlet manifold is in poor condition, and I would like to replace it. I believe this is the part listed as "Cylinder Head Water Outlet Pipe Joint" in the manual, with part number 8-1/B59 in one version and 10-2-59 in another.

 

Stationary Engine Parts have these ones: http://www.stationaryengineparts.com/Water-Jacket-Flange-Gasket-Pair.html with product code 10/02/1959 - same thing? They look about the right shape but can anyone confirm if these are actually correct for the JP3M?

 

[by'eck]

The water rail to head gaskets have the later part number 10-2-59 and are used seemingly on all JP/JS/JK models.

 

I would ask for confirmation that the items Stationary Engine Parts sell are the same, which seems likely despite the slight part number difference.

[Giant]

Right, that wasn't too hard!

 

Head number 1 off, first look inside:

 

 

 

There is some surface corrosion on the studs but very thin and scrapes right off. There were two little piles of it where the head scraped against the studs on the way up:

 

 

The cylinder liner looks good, no scoring, and sits very slightly above the level of the block as required - will check the exact height soon.

 

On removing the gasket we found a surprise underneath - two small sections of extra copper gasket material placed around the water channels:

 

 

We hear that this is something Waddingtons used to do when the engines leaked water - change the gasket and supplement it with a bit of the old one.

 

Here's the top of the piston:

 

 

And here's the underside of the head:

 

 

More to come...

[George94]

My professional opinion is that no one should go to sea in a vessel that is not 100% fit for the voyage. Your engine is showing signs of trouble even under the low loadings it has recently experienced inland. Hard slogging at sea is an entirely different proposition. If it dies on you you could well be dead in the water, no pun intended I assure you.

 

My professional opinion is that on that basis, nobody would ever put to sea.

Edited September 24, 2013 by George94

[Giant]

Whilst I await any opinions on our findings so far, a more immediate question:

 

When we removed the nuts holding the exhaust manifold to the no. 1 cylinder head, the studs came out with them. This was convenient as it let us lift out that head without disturbing the manifold. On the other two cylinders however, the nuts came off normally and the studs are still in place.

 

This leaves us with a dilemma - do we remove the manifold, which we hear is very hard to get back on and realign, or do we try to remove the remaining exhaust studs, and if so how? I like the non-destructive method using two nuts locked to each other, but on at least one of them there isn't really enough thread accessible to try this, at least with the rather thick nuts we have to hand. Or there's the destructive approach of a stud extractor, but then we (1) need to source new Whitworth studs, and (2) are rather stuck if we damage the ends and then they won't come out. What shall we do?

Edited September 24, 2013 by Giant

[George94]

Whilst I await any opinions on our findings so far, a more immediate question:

 

When we removed the nuts holding the exhaust manifold to the no. 1 cylinder head, the studs came out with them. This was convenient as it let us lift out that head without disturbing the manifold. On the other two cylinders however, the nuts came off normally and the studs are still in place.

 

This leaves us with a dilemma - do we remove the manifold, which we hear is very hard to get back on and realign, or do we try to remove the remaining exhaust studs, and if so how? I like the non-destructive method using two nuts locked to each other, but on at least one of them there isn't really enough thread accessible to try this, at least with the rather thick nuts we have to hand. Or there's the destructive approach of a stud extractor, but then we (1) need to source new Whitworth studs, and (2) are rather stuck if we damage the ends and then they won't come out. What shall we do?

 

If the locking nuts aren't practicable, there is not a lot you can do. I have the same problem on my boat, and am forced to remove the manifold. It's a bore, but not impossible.

 

BTW, I use silicon gasket sealant instead of normal gaskets on the manifolds. Works a treat.

[flatplane8]

Hi,

 

New nuts and studs are available, I think I got some from eBay. The stud extractor is one option, or you could carefully peen over the end of the stud so a single nut jams on it. If that didn't work you still might be able to salvage the stud afterwards.

 

Simon

[frangar]

I'm not sure that having an extra thickness of gasket just around the water passages would have helped the overall sealing of the gasket.

 

The water passages don't look too bad from the pictures.....I reckon some wellseal would work....if they are worse than they look then you can get a loctite sealant but for the life of me I can't remember the number....I think it was white in colour....not a lot of help...sorry!!

 

My engine was salt water cooled in its early life and shows worse corrosion.

 

If you do remove the manifold and get the studs out then just take your time when you are putting all back together....assemble everything loosely then tighten up evenly making sure nothing can bind as I have heard of the stud hole lugs being broken off which would be annoying to say the least.

 

Those manifold gaskets look about right but the chap at SEP is very helpful so would be worth a call.

 

The main studs don't look too bad.....maybe clean them up and make sure they haven't corroded deeply.

 

Have you got any pictures of the head gaskets....they often show the route of the tracking so you can see where any trouble spots might be.

 

Cheers

 

Gareth

Edited September 25, 2013 by frangar

[martyn 1]

But they do and that is why in the UK we are in the lucky position that the RNLI exists to save people in some cases from there own stupidity.

 

You wouldn't head off for a long drive knowing you brakes are a bit dodgy and one wheel is hanging off. But with boats I have spent many an hour towing in people that are only in danger because of poor preparation and maintenance. You won't believe how many people jump on a boat that hasn't moved for years and head straight to sea without any more checks than does it start.

 

 

My professional opinion is that on that basis, nobody would ever put to sea.

[martyn 1]

Other than the extra components to remove the manifold isn't a hard job to re align. Fit all the bits loosely. Tighten the joint between manifold and silence, then tighten the manifold to the heads evenly, finally check for a gap under the silencer. If no gap tighten down, if a gap make a suitable shim, fit and then tighten down.

 

Whilst I await any opinions on our findings so far, a more immediate question:

 

When we removed the nuts holding the exhaust manifold to the no. 1 cylinder head, the studs came out with them. This was convenient as it let us lift out that head without disturbing the manifold. On the other two cylinders however, the nuts came off normally and the studs are still in place.

 

This leaves us with a dilemma - do we remove the manifold, which we hear is very hard to get back on and realign, or do we try to remove the remaining exhaust studs, and if so how? I like the non-destructive method using two nuts locked to each other, but on at least one of them there isn't really enough thread accessible to try this, at least with the rather thick nuts we have to hand. Or there's the destructive approach of a stud extractor, but then we (1) need to source new Whitworth studs, and (2) are rather stuck if we damage the ends and then they won't come out. What shall we do?

[Giant]

Well, we have unfastened the manifold but now have a new problem, see image below. I have labelled a few stud locations to explain more clearly.

 

 

The problem is stud A, which as far as I can tell should not be there at all. The manual lists four set screws connecting the manifold to the silencer, and the other three were there as expected, but in place of this one was a stud with a cap nut on it. As such the manifold is now blocked in by the combination of studs.

 

I have tried locking two nuts on stud A to remove it, but could not get it moving. My next plan is to try removing B and C by this method, which would allow the manifold to pivot around E, since D came out already with its nut.

 

If that doesn't work I suppose it will be a stud extractor job, although it will probably have to be on B, C and E because the silencer blocks proper access to A.

 

Any other ideas?

 

If I ever find out who inserted stud A I will insert it somewhere else!