New owners preparing to take a JP3M to sea - help!

[Giant]

Right then. We bought a great big boat. There will probably be another thread about that from the other half who's already on here, but I'm going to get straight to the noisy, greasy, business end of things.

 

She's a 1953 Sheffield size Humber Keel, and still has her original marine JP3 with Blackstone gearbox, hand started, currently looking roughly like this:

 

 

As I am new to this lark and now apparently in charge of this monstrous contraption I am keen for all the advice I can get!

 

It runs nicely as far as I can tell. No dodgy shades of smoke or strange noises that my untrained ear could discern and our surveyor also seemed happy enough watching & listening to it. The boat has made four inland voyages of a few hours each this year successfully.

 

We will be jumping straight in at the deep end however with a ~48 hour trip down the coast through the salty stuff (under command of a suitable skipper of course). So we would like to hear as many opinions as possible on what to check, what to adjust, what spares to carry, what tools to bring, what problems to watch for and prepare for.

 

My own experience here is pretty limited - I'm the electric variety of engineer rather than mechanical, and have fettled the odd car but nothing like this. I've got the manual on CD to read through, have had a rundown from the previous owner on the basics - things to oil and grease, checklists for startup and shutdown and so on, and have just about got the knack of starting it now.

 

The oil was changed within the last year and the engine has run less than 50 hours since then. No spare oil on board so will need to get that, I know it's straight 30, with current recommendation being Morris "Golden Film". Not sure how much to get - would be a 25 litre drum to have a full change on hand but that seems excessive.

 

What other lubricants are needed? Currently just an almost empty yellow tin of "No. 2 GREASE" which is presumably what's been going into the greasing caps for the pump etc.

 

What spares should we carry? The pump leathers were changed recently and we have spares of those aboard, we've also picked up two new fuel filter wicks. Someone recommended fitting a modern cartridge type filter into the fuel supply but I'm not sure I understand the motivation for that - the existing dual filters with running switchover, plus spare wicks and means to clean the old ones seems like a pretty robust arrangement.

 

The fuel tanks are the original ones, one each side of the engine room with a few hundred litres each. I gather that gunk in the bottom of old fuel tanks that haven't rocked around in decades is a common issue when these things go to sea, so cleaning the tanks has been raised as something to do - although the previous owners did this when they got her, around ten years ago, and one skipper has suggested that's recently enough. Is this plausible?

 

The plan for a long voyage will apparently involve oil drums on deck rigged up as a completely alternative fuel supply, but I've yet to hear the details of how this proposed arrangement will be plumbed in and secured.

 

What tends to go wrong with these things? What do you need to fix it when it does? Right now the toolkit in the engine room is pretty much just two adjustable spanners (Whitworth of course ), a hammer and my Swiss army knife. I'm sure we'll need plenty more - but what exactly is best to have to hand?

 

In short... !

[luctor et emergo]

Duct tape is what you need.

 

As for buying other tools, no matter what you buy, inevitably you'll need a tool that you don't (yet) have..

 

Good luck, and enjoy.

[johnthebridge]

You sound like you know what's what, and obviously you must take tools galore, grease, oil etc. BUT, fuel and the tank(s) will almost certainly be the cause of any stumbling block. 10 years really means nothing-what was used to clean out the tanks, what state are the tanks in etc etc. I had a similar situation with our Dutch barge years ago, and I bought a new smallish plastic fuel tank (from ASAP), some new fuel lines and a new separator/filter. Rigged this up in the engine room (tie it all down securely), by-passing all the installed gear, had an extra amount of fresh fuel carried in a drum, complete with pump, funnel etc and it worked perfectly.

If you can't ensure your current set-up is absolutely crap-free, and you'll have to take it all apart to do so, can I urge you to do the above? It'll cost you, obviously, but, believe me, the peace of mind is well worth that. I actually sold on afterwards all the gear I'd bought.

Anyhow, good luck with her, she sounds like a nice old girl, and nice to see the JP in "original" condition, not all painted and polished to extinction. I guess you already know about things like checking the oil level if she's on dry sump lubrication, ie she has a separate oil tank located somewhere nearby? If not, enquire here and someone will help.

John.

Edited August 13, 2013 by johnthebridge

[BEngo]

Can you get a dip pipe to the bottom of the tanks? If so it would be worth having a suck at the very bottom of the tanks to see what's there to be stirred up. Just draw a few samples up into clean clear (jam?) jars. If the fuel is clear and bright with no water or solids settling out I don't think there will be a problem.

 

If it's not then Johnthebridge has probably the best idea.

 

N

[PaddingtonBear]

Write a passage plan and tell the local coastguard. Tell a third party on land when you set off and when you arrive safely. Make sure batteies are charged. Do a radio check. Make sure your insurance specifically covers you for this voyage. Have fun you lucky people.

Edited August 13, 2013 by PaddingtonBear

[LEO]

Make a generous donation to the RNLI - their services may not be needed -- but on the other hand.

 

Good Luck.

 

Leo

[Giant]

Thanks for the tips on the tanks. John, your proposal sounds pretty much like what we've had a couple of skippers suggest, although I think the plan was to skip the pump and just feed down from the drums by gravity. I guess either way this would be installed by fitting a two-way switchover downstream of the existing filters, so we could select either original tanks/filters or the new setup (presumably with a modern cartridge filter inline)?

 

The existing tanks do each have a firmly bolted panel on the side, presumably intended for inspection/cleaning, that looks to be just about big enough to get an arm through to scrub with. Would need to drain them first and get it off and figure out sealing it up again but it would let us get a proper look at the inside and clean if required (what with?). I'm up for giving that a go but it sounds like my effort might be wasted at this point as the delivery skippers we've spoken to seem to want to just distrust the existing fuel system completely and install a separate system regardless.

 

It is indeed a dry sump setup with the oil tank mounted on the forward bulkhead next to the engine. That's the pipe coming out of the corner of it in the left of the picture. I've been shown to look inside, see the level and spot that the oil's flowing and not clogging up on top of the filter mesh when started cold.

[Giant]

Oh and -

 

nice to see the JP in "original" condition, not all painted and polished to extinction.

 

...this is nice to hear, I was expecting to hear moans about the state of it after seeing some of the lovingly stripped down & repainted ones about!

[The Bagdad Boatman (waits)]

I always vacuumed out the bottom of the fuel tank before going on lumpy water. Carrying deck cargo of fuel is iffy when the boat is jumping up and down by a meter or more, any drums can work loose. You have dual tanks so take off the inspection plates to remove any rust and water then get the fuel polished. Look at the stern tube does it need repacking? do you have waterproof grease to top up the greaser? Double secure any fridges and cookers check the security of the battery fastenings. do not rely on gravity to hold anything down. Hire a life raft and pray you do not need it. Wait for a quiet weather window, the boat is no good to you under the sea. Do you need ballast to take the screw down to a working depth. If you ship big waves will the covers or top stay waterproof. Seal windows with scuttles or make wood covers. Is the fan belt missing? Look at the cooling system spare water pump? The best baler is a frightened man with a bucket.

Edited August 13, 2013 by The Bagdad Boatman (waits)

[steven wilkinson]

The best baler is a frightened man with a bucket.

[wren]

Anyhow, good luck with her, she sounds like a nice old girl, and nice to see the JP in "original" condition, not all painted and polished to extinction. I

 

Other half here -- does that mean I can cross "paint and polish engine" off the rather lengthy "to-do-once-actually-living-aboard" list?

[johnthebridge]

 

Other half here -- does that mean I can cross "paint and polish engine" off the rather lengthy "to-do-once-actually-living-aboard" list?

Yep. Leave her looking like a proper ex-working craft, not some nancy modern tin box.

 

So far as the passage skipper's opinion is concerned, I'm afraid I would agree entirely with him/her. I would certainly by-pass all of the original set-up, including the filter. Even a fairly crude old thing like a JP won't be too keen on even small particles of crud in the injectors and pump, and unless you overhaul your present system utterly thoroughly and you can guarantee that 100%, you'll always stand that risk. This isn't crossing Tixall Wide, and you will frighten yourselves senseless if that old girl stops, or even stutters, in a tideway. Believe me, I've been there-there's nothing so terrifying as the sound of silence, with just the tide pushing you ever so surely towards the dry bits. For the sake of a few quid-DO IT!

With a dry sump you need to check the oil level with the engine running, although some will say it's OK to stop the engine and check it immediately. Don't check the level as you would a normal car, ie cold. Apologies if you already know this.

Best of luck!

[by'eck]

Don't forget to unscrew those big black knobs on each cylinder after starting. Driving a big boat such as you have, you will need it in low compression once started. Don't wait until you are at sea though to check them out.

 

Engine oil change every 450 hours BTW with the external tank. Drain sump and mop out anything nasty from bottom of crankcase by taking off the crankcase doors.

[Giant]

Look at the stern tube does it need repacking? do you have waterproof grease to top up the greaser?

The stern tube was repacked recently.

 

To top up the greaser I was planning to order some of this stuff: http://www.morrislubricantsonline.co.uk/k99-water-resistant-grease.html at the same time as getting oil from Morris, but open to other suggestions. Would also be useful to know if the same stuff can double as general purpose grease for the pump etc, or if we should get something different for that.

 

Is the fan belt missing?

 

Fan belt? If there's supposed to be a fan on this thing then there's a lot more than the belt missing...

 

If you're looking at the alternator which is in the picture without its belt fitted, that's on now.

Don't forget to unscrew those big black knobs on each cylinder after starting. Driving a big boat such as you have, you will need it in low compression once started. Don't wait until you are at sea though to check them out.

 

I'd been wondering about those. The previous owner didn't mention them at all that I recall, which leaves the impression that he just left it in high compression. I haven't operated them yet - will do so ASAP and make sure she runs OK at low compression.

[Giant]

So far as the passage skipper's opinion is concerned, I'm afraid I would agree entirely with him/her. I would certainly by-pass all of the original set-up, including the filter. Even a fairly crude old thing like a JP won't be too keen on even small particles of crud in the injectors and pump, and unless you overhaul your present system utterly thoroughly and you can guarantee that 100%, you'll always stand that risk.

 

I've no problem with that but the implication seemed to be to ignore/disconnect the old system and depend on the new one, rather than preparing both and having one as a backup to the other. Not sure I trust the logic of that approach, replacing something that works with something new but untested :-)

Edited August 13, 2013 by Giant

[johnthebridge]

 

I've no problem with that but the implication seemed to be to ignore/disconnect the old system and depend on the new one, rather than preparing both and having one as a backup to the other. Not sure I trust the logic of that approach, replacing something that works with something new but untested :-)

 

So, you're prepared to utilise something old but untested? The "implication" is correct. The existing system may well work on the canal, but out on the foamy brine is another matter entirely. Anyone who chooses to ignore the advice of an experienced passage skipper is, in my humble opinion, foolish. Please bear in mind, it's his life as well as yours. I've said me bit. Should you choose to do otherwise is your choice.

[Giant]

Anyone who chooses to ignore the advice of an experienced passage skipper is, in my humble opinion, foolish. Please bear in mind, it's his life as well as yours. I've said me bit. Should you choose to do otherwise is your choice.

 

I think we must have crossed wires somewhere as I wasn't suggesting to do any such thing. We don't even have a skipper to ignore yet, just a lot of rather vague advice from potential ones.

 

I was trying to understand conflicting suggestions - some advice saying clean out the tanks, other advice saying forget those tanks and install new ones.

 

To me it seemed like the safest answer was perhaps to do both, i.e. install a new system but also clean out the old system and keep that as a backup in case of any problems with the new one. Maybe that's a stupid idea, I don't know, that's why I'm here asking.

[luctor et emergo]

I really don't know how all these ships on the sea cope. Unless they all have a seperate little tank for their fuel.

Or maybe they have a bypass filter system?

 

 

You ditch dwellers are a funny lot.

 

I think we must have crossed wires somewhere as I wasn't suggesting to do any such thing. We don't even have a skipper to ignore yet, just a lot of rather vague advice from potential ones.

 

I was trying to understand conflicting suggestions - some advice saying clean out the tanks, other advice saying forget those tanks and install new ones.

 

To me it seemed like the safest answer was perhaps to do both, i.e. install a new system but also clean out the old system and keep that as a backup in case of any problems with the new one. Maybe that's a stupid idea, I don't know, that's why I'm here asking.

This forum is fantastic for feedback, advice, encouragement, and even banter. But most of the 'lumpy water' advice comes from people who have never been on lumpy water.

 

Just saying.

 

How many boats have a separate fuel tank?

[Giant]

Perhaps it would be better to start a separate thread for the topic of sea voyage preparations. We already have a rather lengthy passage checklist compiled from three different skippers' recommendations plus MCA, RYA, DBA etc advice and all the legal requirements I have been able to identify. There are many items on which it would be helpful to discuss - but would be off topic to do so here in the Lister section.

 

The reason I started this thread is that many of the checklist items are things such as "check/service engine", "tools", "spares", "lubricants" etc and we would like to hear from other JP owners what those imply for this engine specifically.

[George94]

As long as you have clean air and clean fuel, a JP3 SHOULDN'T let you down. And if it does, it will almost certainly be something you couldn't be expected to fix at sea, like a gearbox failure.

 

If you have good access to your fuel tank, you should be able to clean it out and not worry about a temporary arrangement. It's a messy job, but easy enough.

 

Check the hoses and replace if necessary. Dismantle the water pump and replace consumable parts. I put a filter in my system when I found bits of impellor circulating.

 

Good luck.

[mykaskin]

I think I'd want to really test the engine under strain before doing the journey. Moving a JP2 powered boat once, I had the silencer/expansion box blow a tube and water started spraying out the exhaust when having to do an emergency stop - wouldn't want that to happen on a sea voyage. Tie up in some really deep water, and run at high power for several hours, or use the journey to the tide to get some proper stress testing done. Obviously ensure you have all you need to survive should the engine fail. I'd be tempted after my experience to have a bit of pipe work available in case of such issues.

 

If you really want to be sure, have the engine checked and serviced by a professional, but they can't catch all problems...

 

When I picked up Victoria with her JP2, I ended up breaking ice for most of the journey back, flat out, for 12 hours a day for several days - so I knew the engine was good when I took her on the Humber later that year. By the time I'd got her within a few hours of home in London the head gasket (which I knew was on its way out) went completely! Still ran thought, and got me home, but wouldn't have liked it to do that on the tideway.

 

Cheers,

 

Mike

[Giant]

As long as you have clean air and clean fuel, a JP3 SHOULDN'T let you down. And if it does, it will almost certainly be something you couldn't be expected to fix at sea, like a gearbox failure.

 

Obviously there will be things that can't be fixed at sea, yes. However if there were components that were approaching failure, I'd hope that some of them might be identifiable by dismantling and checking for wear etc, so that they could be fixed in advance of the trip rather than waiting for them to fail at sea.

 

If you have good access to your fuel tank, you should be able to clean it out and not worry about a temporary arrangement. It's a messy job, but easy enough

 

Since the access is relatively straightforward we're definitely going to check and clean out the existing tanks, although I think we'll still end up fitting an alternative tank/filter system that bypasses the existing setup, switchable with a valve just before the injector pump.

 

What should we use to clean out the tanks?

 

Check the hoses and replace if necessary. Dismantle the water pump and replace consumable parts. I put a filter in my system when I found bits of impellor circulating.

 

There are a couple of hoses in the cooling water system which look dodgy, so I've bought new radiator hose and clips to replace those sections. The rest seems okay to me, and we'll have some spare hose and clips of various sizes with us.

 

Stripping down the pump sounds doable although I note the manual lists some special tools for this - are any of them actually needed? By consumables do you just mean seals etc or also the impellers? We had one recommendation to carry spares of the impellers also, but I don't know where to get them.

 

Where and how did you insert your filter?

 

[Giant]

I think I'd want to really test the engine under strain before doing the journey.

 

Makes sense - I'll see what we can arrange. I'd like to check as much as I can on it first before running it hard though.

[The Bagdad Boatman (waits)]

I fitted fuel microporous fuel filters with water trap from Delpi. If you replace the plastic drain plug with a metal screw as per regs, make sure the screw isnot too long as it will crack the filter glass. One on each feed line should do the trick, as if one gets blocked you can use the other. I blew the lines out with air to remove any crud.

http://www.filtertechnik.co.uk/Diesel-decontamination.htm?gclid=CODLu6OggrkCFafLtAodXDIAZA

[The Bagdad Boatman (waits)]

Where is the boat now? where are you wanting to take it to? take it out on a deep canal or river and run it for a day.