New owners preparing to take a JP3M to sea - help!

[frangar]

Don't forget to oil and grease the valve gear as well. Try and get a manual (eBay on cd Rom) as it helps show a lot of what you need to know. Would strongly recommend running on low compression on the lumpy stuff. Do try the valves first tho before its critical! Oh any oil pressure over 15psi is fine btw! Good luck!!

 

Cheers

 

Gareth

[by'eck]

Don't forget to oil and grease the valve gear as well. Try and get a manual (eBay on cd Rom) as it helps show a lot of what you need to know. Would strongly recommend running on low compression on the lumpy stuff. Do try the valves first tho before its critical! Oh any oil pressure over 15psi is fine btw! Good luck!!

 

Cheers

 

Gareth

 

You can download the marine JP/JK 2/3 manual here

[frangar]

You can download the marine JP/JK 2/3 manual here

That's a useful link!!

 

Cheers

 

Gareth

[Timleech]

 

Obviously there will be things that can't be fixed at sea, yes. However if there were components that were approaching failure, I'd hope that some of them might be identifiable by dismantling and checking for wear etc, so that they could be fixed in advance of the trip rather than waiting for them to fail at sea.

 

 

Since the access is relatively straightforward we're definitely going to check and clean out the existing tanks, although I think we'll still end up fitting an alternative tank/filter system that bypasses the existing setup, switchable with a valve just before the injector pump.

 

What should we use to clean out the tanks?

 

 

There are a couple of hoses in the cooling water system which look dodgy, so I've bought new radiator hose and clips to replace those sections. The rest seems okay to me, and we'll have some spare hose and clips of various sizes with us.

 

Stripping down the pump sounds doable although I note the manual lists some special tools for this - are any of them actually needed? By consumables do you just mean seals etc or also the impellers? We had one recommendation to carry spares of the impellers also, but I don't know where to get them.

 

Where and how did you insert your filter?

 

 

Lots and lots of cotton rags, (after removing the fuel of course). Make a new joint for the inspection door and seal it with a good jointing compound (eg STAG).

 

Regarding the water pump, first you talk about new leathers and then impellers. Which type of pump is it? If it's the Lister impeller (actually rubber gear) type, you do need special tools to reassemble it, I've no idea whether new gears/impellers can still be got (ask Chris B of this forum). If it's the plunger type then normal tools will do the job but all you can really do is check the leathers and valve cages and look for sever wear on the piston pin. If you do fit new leathers make sure they are the correct ones, and fit properly around the locating shoulders.

 

Tim

[howardang]

In addition to the passage skipper, I would strongly suggest that you try to find a marine engineer - and I mean a real one, not an enthusiastic amateur, with the greatest respect to all amateurs - and get him to give his views on the planned passage and the installation. Who knows, you might be able to persuade him to come with you to give peace of mind:-)

 

Howard

[George94]

I used a cheapo wet and dry vac to remove sludge from the fuel tank, then cleaned it with Gunk (I think).

 

My water pump is a Jabsco with a rubber impellor. Just needs a screwdriver. The impellors are very expensive, for what they are.

 

The filter is a BOSS stainless steel gauze strainer, housed in a bronze body which fits a one inch pipe.

 

ETA: Once you have the fuel tank sorted, I can't see any good reason to fit a separate temporary one. Having said that, a permanent day tank is a good idea.

Edited August 20, 2013 by George94

[Giant]

Where is the boat now? where are you wanting to take it to? take it out on a deep canal or river and run it for a day.

 

She's currently at Goole and needs to get to Maldon. Any trial run needing high power in deep water would presumably need to be done on the Humber.

 

Regarding the water pump, first you talk about new leathers and then impellers. Which type of pump is it? If it's the Lister impeller (actually rubber gear) type, you do need special tools to reassemble it, I've no idea whether new gears/impellers can still be got (ask Chris B of this forum). If it's the plunger type then normal tools will do the job but all you can really do is check the leathers and valve cages and look for sever wear on the piston pin. If you do fit new leathers make sure they are the correct ones, and fit properly around the locating shoulders.

 

Aha - I hadn't previously realised there were multiple types of pump in use with this model of engine, so assumed advice relating to impellers was relevant. The pump is in fact a piston type that looks like this:

 

 

Where would this pump have originated then? The one in the JPM/JKM manual is the rubber gear type you describe. Is this piston one made by someone else or is it an alternative Lister option I would find in some different manual?

[Timleech]

 

She's currently at Goole and needs to get to Maldon. Any trial run needing high power in deep water would presumably need to be done on the Humber.

 

 

Aha - I hadn't previously realised there were multiple types of pump in use with this model of engine, so assumed advice relating to impellers was relevant. The pump is in fact a piston type that looks like this:

 

 

Where would this pump have originated then? The one in the JPM/JKM manual is the rubber gear type you describe. Is this piston one made by someone else or is it an alternative Lister option I would find in some different manual?

 

It's actually the more commonly found pump, but had perhaps been phased out by the time the usually-available edition of the manual was produced.

 

Tim

[Giant]

It's actually the more commonly found pump, but had perhaps been phased out by the time the usually-available edition of the manual was produced.

 

Ah, OK. I guess I shall keep a vague eye out for earlier copies of the manual then.

 

The serial number is 473JPMP7 - would be interested to know when this dates it to, and whether it is the original she was built with or a later swap by Waddingtons.

[by'eck]

 

She's currently at Goole and needs to get to Maldon. Any trial run needing high power in deep water would presumably need to be done on the Humber.

 

 

Aha - I hadn't previously realised there were multiple types of pump in use with this model of engine, so assumed advice relating to impellers was relevant. The pump is in fact a piston type that looks like this:

 

 

Where would this pump have originated then? The one in the JPM/JKM manual is the rubber gear type you describe. Is this piston one made by someone else or is it an alternative Lister option I would find in some different manual?

 

Love the remote stop control

 

The gear type of water pump shown in the manual was an option throughout the production life and became the only sea water pump listed towards the end with a further bilge pump option. The piston type you have seems most popular though despite occasionally leaking, and incorporated a bilge pump as standard I believe.

 

Ah, OK. I guess I shall keep a vague eye out for earlier copies of the manual then.

 

The serial number is 473JPMP7 - would be interested to know when this dates it to, and whether it is the original she was built with or a later swap by Waddingtons.

 

The last number would indicate 1950 + 7 = 1957 build, indicating a late model since the JS3 took over in 1959 quickly replaced by the more reliable JK3, although I believe there was an overlap with earlier models.

Edited August 20, 2013 by by'eck

[Giant]

Love the remote stop control

 

Yup, goes up to a lever in the wheelhouse along with gear, throttle and oil pressure.

 

The gear type of water pump shown in the manual was an option throughout the production life and became the only sea water pump towards the end with a further bilge pump option. The piston type you have seems most popular though despite occasionally leaking, and incorporated a bilge pump as standard I believe.

 

Yes, one piston pumps cooling water and the other acts as a bilge pump.

[by'eck]

 

It's actually the more commonly found pump, but had perhaps been phased out by the time the usually-available edition of the manual was produced.

 

Tim

 

For the benefit of the OP and others interested, the earlier Lister JP2 & JP3MGR marine manual is available from the MPS website here

 

The piston type sea water pump parts diagram with part numbers is shown over pages 108..111

 

Note that acceptable oil pressure at normal engine speed in this manual is quoted in the 8-15 psi range as distinct from the later recommendation of 15-20 psi on the same models.

Edited August 21, 2013 by by'eck

[The Bagdad Boatman (waits)]

you can get a good run from Goole to Castlford as the first trip if you have not been out before. Are you going through the glory hole at Lincoln? I know that the glory hole will allow a 15 foot beam boat through and it is 2.90 meters at its highest point. Going up the Trent to Torksey and down the Witham to the Wash cuts out the long run round the Lincoln coast.

[Timleech]

you can get a good run from Goole to Castlford as the first trip if you have not been out before. Are you going through the glory hole at Lincoln? I know that the glory hole will allow a 15 foot beam boat through and it is 2.90 meters at its highest point. Going up the Trent to Torksey and down the Witham to the Wash cuts out the long run round the Lincoln coast.

 

We took our Sheffield keel through Lincoln with a few inches to spare, but we did have 20 tons of ballast, more towards the front to get her trimmed roughly level.

 

Tim

[Giant]

Are you going through the glory hole at Lincoln? I know that the glory hole will allow a 15 foot beam boat through and it is 2.90 meters at its highest point. Going up the Trent to Torksey and down the Witham to the Wash cuts out the long run round the Lincoln coast.

 

I'm pretty sure she's too big for that route. We think she's 15'6" beam - that's what she's listed as having been built to in the Harkers yard list, and as I understood was the standard width for Sheffield keels. The locks on the Fossdyke and the Witham navigation are listed at 15'2", even if you could get through the bridge.

 

There were Lincoln keels built specifically to go down that way, which would have been narrower and also had the top shaped to fit through the glory hole. Misterton is one of them - and I hear even they went round the coast in recent years as they weren't sure she'd fit with the modern lack of dredging.

We took our Sheffield keel through Lincoln with a few inches to spare, but we did have 20 tons of ballast, more towards the front to get her trimmed roughly level.

 

Now that is interesting. Which boat is this, and is she really the full Sheffield size? Which direction did you get there from - and did you continue all the way between the Trent and the Wash?

 

Either your boat must be smaller or some of these locks must be bigger!

Edited August 22, 2013 by Giant

[Timleech]

 

Now that is interesting. Which boat is this, and is she really the full Sheffield size? Which direction did you get there from - and did you continue all the way between the Trent and the Wash?

 

Either your boat must be smaller or some of these locks must be bigger!

 

It was the BEECLIFFE, actually about 15'9" beam as far as I remember.

 

We went from Swinton (I think, though it may have been Stanley Ferry where we had worked on the boat for some time) to Boston, & from there non-stop to Oostende.

Engine was a Lister HA3

The year was 1975.

 

Tim

[Giant]

 

It was the BEECLIFFE, actually about 15'9" beam as far as I remember.

 

We went from Swinton (I think, though it may have been Stanley Ferry where we had worked on the boat for some time) to Boston, & from there non-stop to Oostende.

Engine was a Lister HA3

The year was 1975.

 

Tim

 

Indeed, by the time you posted this Wren had already noted from the Sheffield keels thread that your boat would have been Beecliffe, and Google had found me your account of the trip in the June 1976 newsletter of the HKSPS! Apparently you went from Swinton :-)

 

How interesting. I wonder if it can still be done.

Edited August 22, 2013 by Giant

[wren]

How interesting. I wonder if it can still be done.

 

Road, er, canal trip!

 

More seriously, without trying, how could we find out?

[Giant]

 

Road, er, canal trip!

 

More seriously, without trying, how could we find out?

 

Road trip with a tape measure?

[The Bagdad Boatman (waits)]

I hope you have taken advantage of the September soft weather window and are now in your mooring.

[wren]

Thanks for the wishes -- we've heard nothing from any of the possible skippers we're in touch with!

[Giant]

Right, time for an update.

 

One of our preferred skippers is now almost finished with his other movements so will be available soon. We've been working away at the long passage checklist and it's finally getting mostly ticked off.

 

The following things are currently bothering us in the engine department:

 

Fuel Tanks

 

As per the advice here, most of the attention in the engine room has been going into the fuel arrangements. We have two tanks of around 220 litres each. One of these has not been in use and upon opening it we found it to be quite rusty inside, so we are setting that one aside for future restoration.

 

The plan now, per skipper's advice, is to clean and use the remaining 220 litre main tank for the voyage, and to carry two 45 gallon drums for additional storage, refilling the main tank from these as required. To that end we have drained the main tank of fuel, shoveled out about half a bucket of black/brown sludge from the bottom, scraped and cleaned the inside as best we can, and it now looks like this:

 

 

The sides appear to be in excellent condition as does much of the bottom, but there is some pitting on parts of the bottom which shows up as the lighter areas in this image. None of it seems to be deep enough to be at any risk of holing, but I would like to prevent further corrosion if possible - so how best to prepare and protect this surface before putting the tank back into service?

 

For now we are letting this dry out thoroughly to eliminate any remaining water and make it easier to vacuum out loose particles. When we do refill it will be with new clean diesel, plus a dose of preventative chemicals against future diesel bug.

 

Fuel Filters

 

Our skipper's recommendation is to filter the fuel to 5 microns with via a cartridge type filter inserted in the fuel path. We discussed placement of this and agreed that the best position would be downstream of the existing filters i.e. just before the injector pump. This should make best use of both, allowing the coarser socks to pick up any larger gunk, then refining further in the cartridge.

 

Of course this should best be done as a twin housing with a switchover arrangement so the cartridges can be changed while running.

 

I am wondering about the best way to do this plumbing - cut the existing metal pipe and add in valves and filter housings via rubber fuel hose and lots of clips? Or try to do the job more neatly with metal pipe and fittings? I haven't done metal plumbing before, but perfectly willing to give it a go if I can figure out what I need - any clues?

 

Changeover Valves

 

I discussed these with the previous owner who confirmed that he had always operated the engine in high compression. He had spoken with former commercial skippers of these vessels, who always ran the JPs in high when the boats were unloaded - and the current fitout is probably barely a tenth of what her cargo load would have been, so he stuck with their practice.

 

The wisdom of that may be debatable, but in any case we have now tested the valves and run the engine in both high and low compression. Both ends of the range seem to achieve a good seal and proper compression on all cylinders.

 

There is a slight wisp of smoke that comes from the vent hole on the No. 2 cylinder changeover valve. This happens in both high and low compression, so by my understanding of the mechanism does not appear to be associated with a poor seal at one end or the other. It's been suggested to me that this may be some gunk in the valve gradually burning off. Any thoughts?

 

Gaskets?

 

On the last run I noticed some "fizz" appearing at the base of the cylinder heads on the port (changeover valve) side.

 

 

Of course this immediately made me suspect a head gasket issue; however I'm not sure what I'm seeing is consistent with that. It is occuring more or less equally beneath all three cylinder heads and only on the port side, which would imply an unlikely synchronicity of problems between the independent gaskets on each head. It also continues to fizz out after the engine is shut down, when I would have thought there should be no pressure in the cylinders. It seems more consistent with some fluid/gas being boiled out as the engine block heats up, but where from?

 

What is going on here?

 

Pump

 

The piston type coolant / bilge pump seems to be working well but does drip a fair bit around the base, despite generous use of the greaser caps. How normal is this?

[The Bagdad Boatman (waits)]

Good to see that you have cleaned the fuel tank. The corrosion was caused by water in the old fuel. I do not know of a protective application that is fuel proof. Leading with solder from Frosts would work but not practical. Fire regulation prohibit the use of rubber piping and clips on a fuel system. Copper and compression fittings are needed. Support the filters rigidly and use a loop of copper to alow for engine movment.

[starman]

My water pump dripped and most people Said 'oh they all do the seals are a bit worn'. When I took it apart the whole thing was completely knackered and barely working. Tim Leech of this forum did a superb restoration job. It's an easy job to pull the pump off and check just in case.

[steamraiser2]

Your picture shows water that is most likely to have come up around the head studs. It's quite common with JPs in marine use and is usually caused by a build up of sludge and rust in the block. This restricts the water flow in parts of the engine and causes hot and cold spots. The coarse thread on the studs will allow water past if they have not had sealant on them. JP3M blocks crack from the front corner of the block nearest to the injector pump in a line along the block top face below the changover valves. Its one of the areas affected by frost damage too. It may be that you have pressure building as a result which may be passing the studs or has cracked the block.

If you look up the CRJ Skinner Welding website and scroll through their gallery you will come across some pictures of a JP2 block of ours that cracked as described under repair. It shows exactly what I describe.

Edited September 16, 2013 by steamraiser2