A Battery Question

[MtB]

I've never been a fan of those solid lead pillars on batteries. Lead being so soft and ductile seems to me to be a daft material to put a clamping, squeezing design of connector onto. Even worse, many of the clamps themselves seem to be made of lead too.

 

Getting back to the OP's battery problem, I agree that this technician (doesn't sound like an engineer to me) has a poor grasp of battery design and his belief that there is a 'battery within a battery' suggests he may have other mad misconceptions too. Therefore look for independent verification of any other odd-sounding advice he may come up with.

 

I also wonder if only the hottest, most distant battery has a short-circuited cell. The adjacent battery may have heated up purely from physical conduction as it seems to be installed directly against the overheating one.

 

MtB

[Old Son]

Thanks Chris

[WotEver]

While we are on the subject of terminals, do not like the look of the cable termination, not the black tape, well that as well but the actual 'ring' looks to be split.

Well observed, so it does.

[Christianonthecut]

I like the 8mm studs much better than the usual clamping arrangement.

 

However, that's the only good comment I would make about the Numax CXV batteries...Completely and utterly unimpressed with mine.

[Leo No2]

I've never been a fan of those solid lead pillars on batteries. Lead being so soft and ductile seems to me to be a daft material to put a clamping, squeezing design of connector onto. Even worse, many of the clamps themselves seem to be made of lead too.

 

Getting back to the OP's battery problem, I agree that this technician (doesn't sound like an engineer to me) has a poor grasp of battery design and his belief that there is a 'battery within a battery' suggests he may have other mad misconceptions too. Therefore look for independent verification of any other odd-sounding advice he may come up with.

 

I also wonder if only the hottest, most distant battery has a short-circuited cell. The adjacent battery may have heated up purely from physical conduction as it seems to be installed directly against the overheating one.

 

MtB

 

 

I've never been a fan of those solid lead pillars on batteries. Lead being so soft and ductile seems to me to be a daft material to put a clamping, squeezing design of connector onto. Even worse, many of the clamps themselves seem to be made of lead too.

 

Getting back to the OP's battery problem, I agree that this technician (doesn't sound like an engineer to me) has a poor grasp of battery design and his belief that there is a 'battery within a battery' suggests he may have other mad misconceptions too. Therefore look for independent verification of any other odd-sounding advice he may come up with.

 

I also wonder if only the hottest, most distant battery has a short-circuited cell. The adjacent battery may have heated up purely from physical conduction as it seems to be installed directly against the overheating one.

 

MtB

 

MtB - got it in one - yes it was the furtherest away battery but I am of the belief that the other three probably got a roasting as well because they were being charged at 45 amps whilst being fully charged anyway so I have changed all four - I believe that the proper practice - if not please shout!

 

No4 battery was still too hot to easily touch 24 hours after being switched off -

[Chris Pink]

Misconception: the other batteries would not be accepting 45 A because one was faulty. They would be taking exactly the same as they would if there wasn't a faulty battery.

 

It is the battery that decides what current to take.

 

It is not the proper practice to change all batteries (unless you're a battery salesman) and I'm a little unhappy I'm not at Stoke Breune to take the other 3 (or 2). 3 is more likely.

You didn't answer about the age of the batteries. The warranty is three years and a shorted cell would likely be a manufacturing fault.

[Leo No2]

Misconception: the other batteries would not be accepting 45 A because one was faulty. They would be taking exactly the same as they would if there wasn't a faulty battery. It is the battery that decides what current to take. It is not the proper practice to change all batteries (unless you're a battery salesman) and I'm a little unhappy I'm not at Stoke Breune to take the other 3 (or 2). 3 is more likely.You didn't answer about the age of the batteries. The warranty is three years and a shorted cell would likely be a manufacturing fault.

Chris - my paperwork is in Stoke Bruerne but I am just above Black Jack's Lock on the GU. My gut feel is that the batteries are about four years old - I am fairly sure they are outwith their guarantee. If you had been close by you could have had the old ones with pleasure but they have now gone back to the supplier which was part of the deal for buying from him. The new ones have access to be topped up which I think is probably better but I don't wish to start a debate on the relative merits of sealed and unsealed just now!

 

I know I have said it before but I am most grateful to the virtual team on here for their comments, advice and views. I have found it most useful.

[MtB]

I agree with Chris, 40 of the 45 Amps would have been passing through the one failed battery which is why it got so hot. And the current through it was so high because the shorted cell reduced the battery voltage by two volts and the internal resistance by 16.7%. V = IR and all that (or in this case I = V/R).

 

So I'm not surprised the supplier wanted the old set, he knew three of them were probably perfectly good batteries

 

MtB

 

 

Edit to change 8% to 16.7% to correct my mental arithmetic!

Edited July 17, 2013 by Mike the Boilerman

[alan_fincher]

Your "engineer" is, as others have rightly pointed out talking complete bollocks, and needs stringing up by his!

 

I never cease to be amazed by the crap some so called experts want you to believe.

 

I wonder if he actually believes it himself. I can't decide if it is worse that he is an idiot, or if it is worse that he is a liar!

Two things the engineer said to me tonight - he's never felt a battery as hot as my No4 was and he is finding this type of error more and more frequently on all types of boats because, he says, most people don't understand the auxiliary stud.

 

He clearly doesn't, (or does, but doesn't want you to!).

 

You need only have replaced the failed battery, not the whole set, but a bit late now, unfortunately!

[Leo No2]

Alan - I genuinely appreciate your comments but my question is could I have done anything else in the circumstances which were.

 

Travelling up the GU with friends to a loose (ish) timetable - IWA festival at Watford.

Batteries overheat

RCR don't cover (damn) but do call out an 'engineer' for me. Not a marine electrician but a general 'engineer'

I am in an area where I don't know what the local support is

He turns up to look at the issue and advises new batteries are required

I need to continue my trip within a reasonable time so make the decision to replace all batteries - they are at least three years old if not four

I didn't really want to carry the old batteries - car in Addlestone, home in Stoke Bruerne - but the old batteries had been 'promised' to the supplier of the new ones as part of the 'engineer's' deal with them

Rock and hard place come to mind

 

Is there an opportunity for something like 'Check-a-Trade' on the forum?

[Richard10002]

You could name the "engineer" so others can be wary of him WRT electrical stuff. He definitely led you up a garden path, and took advantage of your situation. You out to tell RCR that you have been done by their recommended "engineer".

 

Every now and then, we all get "done up like a kipper", so sometimes you have to take it on the chin, but do your best to prevent others suffering at their hands.

 

I've been done up by a few 2nd hand car dealers in recent years - the dealers won't care, but I make sure no one I know goes near either of them without my warning them off.

 

It would be interesting to know what make/model and how much you paid for the new batteries, and how much for fitting. Your old batteries, even if all were knackered, we're worth about £35 to £40 to the guy.... And much more if 3 were still working fine.

[keble]

Just seen this thread. I had a very similar battery failure last year, but just a single battery.

We had extremely hot weather at the time. I wonder if that is a common factor?

[bizzard]

Just seen this thread. I had a very similar battery failure last year, but just a single battery.

We had extremely hot weather at the time. I wonder if that is a common factor?

Personally I think it has got a lot to do with it, especially when banks of batteries are imprisoned and packed hard up against each other stuffed up on the uxter plate close under under a scorching hot sun heated cruisers steel stern deck alongside a hot roaring engine with hardly any ventilation being caned by a high output alternator.

[Chris Pink]

You out to tell RCR that you have been done by their recommended "engineer".

 

 

I agree with this I think this person (I won't call him engineer) has now behaved dishonestly by stealing the remaining batteries.

 

I would be interested in the 'deal' - simple prurient curiosity though because I can understand the desire to move one, too late and all...

[bizzard]

The funny thing is a few years ago many battery vendors didn't want your old battery ( Take it away we don't want it we've only got to dump it, they'd say) now because of jolly old China they're reluctant to flog you a new battery unless they can keep your old one.

[alan_fincher]

You could name the "engineer" so others can be wary of him WRT electrical stuff. He definitely led you up a garden path, and took advantage of your situation. You out to tell RCR that you have been done by their recommended "engineer".

Well, I think they have been named and shamed (see Pst 5).

 

The only odd thing is that Googling them comes up as a dealership in Hamble, Southampton, so seems a bit of an odd choice for a boat in distress on the lower Grand Union.

 

Perhaps it isn't them?

[Semitrad]

Surely 3 or perhaps 4 years is reasonable for a set of domestics? Especially if one has had a catastrophic failure. I think the engineer was right to advise they all be changed, even if he was wrong about other things. Imagine the repercussions if another battery failed a few locks later.

[Chris Pink]

Well, I think they have been named and shamed (see Pst 5).

 

The only odd thing is that Googling them comes up as a dealership in Hamble, Southampton, so seems a bit of an odd choice for a boat in distress on the lower Grand Union.

 

Perhaps it isn't them?

 

RK Marine Engineering & Surveying

 

aka RK Marine consultants

 

07956 33xxxx

 

"24hr breakdown service for Watford & Grand Union South"

 

And is listed at Canal Junction as a surveyor

Edited July 18, 2013 by Chris Pink

[bizzard]

Many moons ago around the mid 1960's 70's when the fairly rapid change over on vehicles from nice gentle dynamos to the much more vigorous alternators took place I was called out by customers on several occasions with exploded or overheated batteries. Two of these cars were early Jaguar XJ6's and they made a horrible mess under the bonnet. Another, I think it was an Audi 100 which I arrived at at the same time as the fire brigade, too late, battery alight, car in flames, the car was a right off. A VW transporter van also almost went the same way. These battery fires could of course been caused by something else like dodgy cables or connections shorting other than them receiving a high charge rate in hot weather. Also the alternators regulators could have gone berserk causing it not to regulate the charge and so cooking the battery. However the battery manufacturers must have got wind of all this and probably began making their batteries with more substantial innards, this and more reliable alternator regulators, because as everyone knows this rarely happens happens on vehicles nowadays.

[alan_fincher]

 

 

RK Marine Engineering & Surveying

 

aka RK Marine consultants

 

07956 33xxxx

 

"24hr breakdown service for Watford & Grand Union South"

 

Also claims to be a surveyor

 

 

[bulk of post removed, pending any confirmation that this is actually who is being talked about]

 

FORMER EDIT RETAINED:

 

Bit of a surprise though. Googling his real name turns up posts on the forum from someone who is normally very well informed, giving him a fairly unconditional recommendation. That makes what has happened here seem very strange, if it is the same person!

Edited July 18, 2013 by alan_fincher

[Chris-B]

 

 

RK Marine Engineering & Surveying

 

aka RK Marine consultants

 

07956 33xxxx

 

"24hr breakdown service for Watford & Grand Union South"

 

Also claims to be a surveyor

 

 

 

For your information Mr Pink , Ralph Kitts is a qualified surveyor.

It never ceases to amaze me how you and other keyboard warriors jump to conclusions with hearing the other side of something

I have just texted Ralph and given him the link to this thread , as I feel that he has a right of reply

Chris-B

[Chris Pink]

Good. I think that's right. It will be interesting to see what he says after creating unprecedented agreement in an electrical thread.

 

I particularly look forward to his explanation of how the "battery within a battery" works

and this mysterious "auxiliary stud"

 

...and thanks for the confirmation, it's always nice to have information from the internet qualified by an authoritative source.

 

I shall edit my post to reflect your update.

 

And perhaps now, Mr Chris B, keyboard warrior of this parish, you'd stop Dave Mayall rubbishing my professional skills as it seems this has become your mission.

[Chris-B]

Good. I think that's right. It will be interesting to see what he says after creating unprecedented agreement in an electrical thread.

 

I particularly look forward to his explanation of how the "battery within a battery" works

and this mysterious "auxiliary stud"

 

...and thanks for the confirmation, it's always nice to have information from the internet qualified by an authoritative source.

 

I shall edit my post to reflect your update.

 

And perhaps now, Mr Chris B, keyboard warrior of this parish, you'd stop Dave Mayall rubbishing my professional skills as it seems this has become your mission.

Thank you for the correction Chris, I am not rubbishing your professsional skills as I like many other agree that you have a lot to offer..as for Mr Mayall sorry pal you will have to sort that yourself....

I do look forward to actually having a beer one day and meet face to face

Chris

[MtB]

These battery fires could of course been caused by something else like dodgy cables or connections shorting other than them receiving a high charge rate in hot weather. Also the alternators regulators could have gone berserk causing it not to regulate the charge and so cooking the battery. However the battery manufacturers must have got wind of all this and probably began making their batteries with more substantial innards, this and more reliable alternator regulators, because as everyone knows this rarely happens happens on vehicles nowadays.

 

But surely this it the chicken and egg thing. Did the alternator going berserk cause the batteries to short a cell or did the battery cell short first, causing the alternator to see 10v instead 12v and attempt to charge the hell out of it in order bring it back up to 12v?

 

MtB

P.S. What happens on a car battery these days if a battery cell shorts out?