2 near misses today

[luctor et emergo]

who mentioned ropes?

 

Ill raise you a deep river Wey lock

I'll see your Wey lock, and raise you the Bath Deep lock.

In the likely event of the Bath flight being closed again, we could retire some 2 miles downstream, and come up Weston Lock instead. For the full experience (trauma?) you should wait below whilst we empty the lock..

[alan_fincher]

Nick if you ever come past lock 59 on the GU going uphill please call me to come and operate the lock for you. Only stipulation is only your boat in the lock.

I promise you a lock you will never forget

Go on - enlighten me!

 

Your local lock - what is special about it?

 

If on our own, we would whack up all paddles fairly smartly, but leaving offside ground to last, as we generally do.

 

Can't remember any issues with that lock?

[nicknorman]

Never once do you consider that in the past the steerer when faced with a helper would have a far greater confidence that the putative helper would do nothing silly.

 

It isn't a change in attitude that is behind it. It is a change in what is being offered.

 

Well this point is worthy of discussion. Yes 20 years ago there were fewer boaters about (although not that many fewer I suspect, we still had queues at popular locks), but surely its not so much how many boaters are about, but more to do with their experience. For instance, if we had a large number of boaters about but they had all been doing it for 20 years, I don't see the problem. On the other hand if there is a sudden expansion, that means a lot of folk around who are new to boating.

 

So what do we have today? I would say a static or slightly shrinking number of boaters, and therefore, looking at a long term average, fewer than average novice boaters. Therefore in conclusion I don't think there are more completely inexperienced boaters around now than 20 years ago. As I said, what has changed is the current trend towards boat owner's precious and islandic attitudes. And most of them don't even have decent shiny boats to worry about!

 

Re-reiterating, I am now 56, I started boating at 8, boated at least yearly until 19 including some long trips (eg Warwick to Ripon and back), then a break before coming back to it about 20 years ago. The first time I encountered the attitude I am referring to was about 10 years ago, and its grown steadily ever since.

[DeanS]

I have no idea what attitude you're on about. I began boating 2yrs ago. One of the things I was told by fellow boaters was...."be careful in locks.....keep your rudder off the cill, and dont get your bow caught on anything....as well as....be careful your boat doesnt get caught on lock walls.". This is not an attitude. It's a safety guideline. In order to follow it, requires at least that I keep my eyes on the boat if I'm handling paddles.

 

If someone comes along at the moment my boat is dropping in a lock, and takes my attention off the boat, (whatever their personal boating experience and intentions), they are crossing a line they should never cross unless previously invited. I fail to see how safety 20yrs ago, and safety today, would have changed that much..surely?

 

I've done about 500 locks in my time of all shapes and sizes, in a narrowboat and a widebeam. They certainly don't scare me, but I have come to realise that (up north), every lock is completely different, and things never go quite the same each time. I was in a lock recently that had a jet of water out the middle of the gates. It would hit the cill and bounce...straight over my bow, and onto my (covered) gennie. I therefore took a little longer than normal trying to get the boat to sit to one side of the spray while opening the paddles. Eventually the "spray" was contained by the rising level of water in the lock...but by now a hire boat behind us had caught us up, and arrived en masse...3 guys...3 gals...all swinging windlasses.....I gave up trying to explain about the jet of water (which was now hidden under the lock water level)...and felt a definate "rushing" on their part to get us out the lock so they could "get going".

[mattlad]

God, is everyone suffering from sun stroke???

I have travelled for years single handed and always welcome any help although am more than capable of doing locks myself.

I wouldn't dream of marching up to a lock, not speaking to the driver of the boat and just winding paddles up/down willy nilly!

I understand everyone has a certain way of doing a lock and I will watch and listen to how they would like help.

If I see something obvious that could cause an accident, I would try and point it out, for example a windlass left on a lock with no catch.

So if anyone sees me out and about and would like to help, please do, I will even put the kettle on

Cheers!

[mayalld]

Well this point is worthy of discussion. Yes 20 years ago there were fewer boaters about (although not that many fewer I suspect, we still had queues at popular locks), but surely its not so much how many boaters are about, but more to do with their experience. For instance, if we had a large number of boaters about but they had all been doing it for 20 years, I don't see the problem. On the other hand if there is a sudden expansion, that means a lot of folk around who are new to boating.

 

So what do we have today? I would say a static or slightly shrinking number of boaters, and therefore, looking at a long term average, fewer than average novice boaters. Therefore in conclusion I don't think there are more completely inexperienced boaters around now than 20 years ago. As I said, what has changed is the current trend towards boat owner's precious and islandic attitudes. And most of them don't even have decent shiny boats to worry about!

 

Re-reiterating, I am now 56, I started boating at 8, boated at least yearly until 19 including some long trips (eg Warwick to Ripon and back), then a break before coming back to it about 20 years ago. The first time I encountered the attitude I am referring to was about 10 years ago, and its grown steadily ever since.

 

Well, there we have it.

 

Living proof that if you try hard enough, you can imagine enough statistics into existence to justify anything.

 

No matter what your ill-thought calculations tell you about the relative degree of experience that there is on the canals today (your reasoning is flawed by the way), it simply isn't relevant.

 

The question isn't whether the average boater is more or less experienced that 20 years ago. The question is whether the average inexperienced boater is more or less likely to interfere than 20 years ago.

 

But, in your case, even that isn't particularly relevant.

 

All this talk of micromanagement, and your concession that you will talk to people who appear nervous or unsure. The heart of the matter from your point of view is that you want to be in charge.

 

You don't accept that other people are capable of working a lock without your input (or at the very least they will be better off with your help), and if you are involved, you will be in charge. You aren't going to accept somebody whose skills you regard as inferior telling you what you can and can't do.

 

That's why you only talk to the nervous ones. You only want to engage where you will be accepted as in charge.

[nicknorman]

Well, there we have it.

 

Living proof that if you try hard enough, you can imagine enough statistics into existence to justify anything.

 

No matter what your ill-thought calculations tell you about the relative degree of experience that there is on the canals today (your reasoning is flawed by the way), it simply isn't relevant.

 

The question isn't whether the average boater is more or less experienced that 20 years ago. The question is whether the average inexperienced boater is more or less likely to interfere than 20 years ago.

 

But, in your case, even that isn't particularly relevant.

 

All this talk of micromanagement, and your concession that you will talk to people who appear nervous or unsure. The heart of the matter from your point of view is that you want to be in charge.

 

You don't accept that other people are capable of working a lock without your input (or at the very least they will be better off with your help), and if you are involved, you will be in charge. You aren't going to accept somebody whose skills you regard as inferior telling you what you can and can't do.

 

That's why you only talk to the nervous ones. You only want to engage where you will be accepted as in charge.

No Dave, I certainly don't want to be in charge of any lock, especially one which doesn't contain my boat. And all the rest of the rubbish which you either delude yourself I said, or more likely are putting words into my mouth from shear mischief and a desire to prolong this now tedious argument, are not true.

 

Other people are quite capable of working their own locks (usually!) and I have repeatedly said that no-one needs to be charge of a routine and straightforward task. The only need to "be in charge of MY LOCK" stems from insecurity, whether as a result of nervousness or having tiny genitalia.

Edited July 18, 2013 by nicknorman

[nicknorman]

I have no idea what attitude you're on about. I began boating 2yrs ago. One of the things I was told by fellow boaters was...."be careful in locks.....keep your rudder off the cill, and dont get your bow caught on anything....as well as....be careful your boat doesnt get caught on lock walls.". This is not an attitude. It's a safety guideline. In order to follow it, requires at least that I keep my eyes on the boat if I'm handling paddles.

 

If someone comes along at the moment my boat is dropping in a lock, and takes my attention off the boat, (whatever their personal boating experience and intentions), they are crossing a line they should never cross unless previously invited. I fail to see how safety 20yrs ago, and safety today, would have changed that much..surely?

 

I've done about 500 locks in my time of all shapes and sizes, in a narrowboat and a widebeam. They certainly don't scare me, but I have come to realise that (up north), every lock is completely different, and things never go quite the same each time. I was in a lock recently that had a jet of water out the middle of the gates. It would hit the cill and bounce...straight over my bow, and onto my (covered) gennie. I therefore took a little longer than normal trying to get the boat to sit to one side of the spray while opening the paddles. Eventually the "spray" was contained by the rising level of water in the lock...but by now a hire boat behind us had caught us up, and arrived en masse...3 guys...3 gals...all swinging windlasses.....I gave up trying to explain about the jet of water (which was now hidden under the lock water level)...and felt a definate "rushing" on their part to get us out the lock so they could "get going".

Sorry but if you have only been boating for 2 years, its not surprising that you don't get my point about changing attitudes from 20 years ago. You are right, locks, like anything else from crossing the road to cutting a slice of bread in the kitchen, has the potential to cause harm. But the degree of attentiveness required for a lock is not that great and most people manage to do other things such as chat whilst in transit. You are lucky that you have a fat boat since you then don't share wide locks. When sharing a wide lock with another narrowboat, its customary to chat to the other boater whilst going up or down. If the other boater didn't want to chat because they were having to concentrate on the job in hand, I would consider that downright weird and rather sad, but in 20 years its never happened. I think this demonstrates that you are extremely unusual in not feeling able to converse whilst going through a lock. Could I suggest either some lessons in multitasking from LSW or maybe just to realise its not that hard. I can't help feeling that your intensity must make it all very stressful and tiring, a great shame. Edited July 18, 2013 by nicknorman

[mayalld]

. You are right, locks, like anything else from crossing the road to cutting a slice of bread in the kitchen, has the potential to cause harm. But the degree of attentiveness required for a lock is not that great

 

 

I was about to suggest that you are talking twaddle, but I have reconsidered.

 

You are talking dangerous twaddle, and your complaceny about locking (whether due to long experience or not) is reprehensible.

 

With an attitude like that, you should most certainly keep well away from anybody elses boat in a lock.

[luctor et emergo]

I will add one last comment, as it has now become tedious.

 

Norman, your self proclaimed overseer status, is bordering on the phsycotic. You only see your point, at all, and by definition you need to belittle and denigrate those that are not you. What is so difficult ? Somebody is locking their boat. If they wish to do it alone, their way, that is their perogative. Nobody has a right to intervere with another's locking. Just because you think you know better, doesn't make it right.

 

It's their boat. I will repaet, it is their boat. What gives you, or anybody else, the idea that you can impose your ways and practise on them??

 

 

Are you a former forum member in disguise?

[magpie patrick]

And who's prolonged this argument Nick? Yes Dave Mayall, but of course you won't stop ramming your point of view home will you?

 

You also insist at having a go (and no weasel words, that's what it is) at DeanS, one of the nicest and more normal blokes on this forum. Yes, he has a reputation of a bit of a worrier, but, a bit like your reputation for being an argumentative loudmouth, it is only partially deserved. 2 years and 500 locks doesn't make Dean inexperienced, it simply makes him less experienced than you or I.

 

I'm not going to discuss the merits of whether or not to help at locks, FWIW my views are somewhere in the middle, standing back and not even being interested is as anti-social as going in with windlasses blazing. But it has ceased to be about that, and become about how everyone should be as you are. Even if I was 100% in favour of your approach (which I'm not) that would make the world a dull place indeed.

There are newcomers, some of them are nervous, there are seasoned boaters, some of them are unreasonable. That's the way it is.

[nicknorman]

I will add one last comment, as it has now become tedious.

Norman, your self proclaimed overseer status, is bordering on the phsycotic. You only see your point, at all, and by definition you need to belittle and denigrate those that are not you. What is so difficult ? Somebody is locking their boat. If they wish to do it alone, their way, that is their perogative. Nobody has a right to intervere with another's locking. Just because you think you know better, doesn't make it right.

It's their boat. I will repaet, it is their boat. What gives you, or anybody else, the idea that you can impose your ways and practise on them??

Are you a former forum member in disguise?

Naughty Lucky you are doing a Mayall and putting words into my mouth. Could you point me to one post where I have said people aren't allowed to work locks alone or must have my ways imposed? No, thought not!

 

If you actually bothered to read by posts they are of regret at the passing of more relaxed and friendly times, with the increasing prevalence of some of the attitudes seen on this thread. So I am not swayed by your imagination and I suggest you find someone else to inject your grumps into.

 

Just a thought, what happens when two such people have to share a wide lock? I suppose they probably ignore water conservation and decline to share, or if they do there surely must be a punch up whilst its determined who will be the dominant alpha boater who will be in charge of "MY LOCK (which I reluctantly allow you to share as long as you don't talk to me)" What a joy such people bring to the waterways!

Edited July 18, 2013 by nicknorman

[Guest]

Sorry but if you have only been boating for 2 years, its not surprising that you don't get my point about changing attitudes from 20 years ago. You are right, locks, like anything else from crossing the road to cutting a slice of bread in the kitchen, has the potential to cause harm. But the degree of attentiveness required for a lock is not that great and most people manage to do other things such as chat whilst in transit. You are lucky that you have a fat boat since you then don't share wide locks. When sharing a wide lock with another narrowboat, its customary to chat to the other boater whilst going up or down. If the other boater didn't want to chat because they were having to concentrate on the job in hand, I would consider that downright weird and rather sad, but in 20 years its never happened. I think this demonstrates that you are extremely unusual in not feeling able to converse whilst going through a lock. Could I suggest either some lessons in multitasking from LSW or maybe just to realise its not that hard. I can't help feeling that your intensity must make it all very stressful and tiring, a great shame.

 

For the record Dean's previous boat was a narrowboat IIRC, so he will have experience of sharing wide locks.

[nicknorman]

And who's prolonged this argument Nick? Yes Dave Mayall, but of course you won't stop ramming your point of view home will you?

 

You also insist at having a go (and no weasel words, that's what it is) at DeanS, one of the nicest and more normal blokes on this forum. Yes, he has a reputation of a bit of a worrier, but, a bit like your reputation for being an argumentative loudmouth, it is only partially deserved. 2 years and 500 locks doesn't make Dean inexperienced, it simply makes him less experienced than you or I.

 

I'm not going to discuss the merits of whether or not to help at locks, FWIW my views are somewhere in the middle, standing back and not even being interested is as anti-social as going in with windlasses blazing. But it has ceased to be about that, and become about how everyone should be as you are. Even if I was 100% in favour of your approach (which I'm not) that would make the world a dull place indeed.

There are newcomers, some of them are nervous, there are seasoned boaters, some of them are unreasonable. That's the way it is.

The argument is mostly prolonged by people claiming I have said something that I haven't. Its a good technique to ensure I respond, as its quite hard to walk away from being defamed. Yes having a bit of a go at Dean who does seem a nice chap as far as one can tell, but for his own good (have to be cruel to be kind!) because surely someone who feels unable to chat whilst going through a lock is too stressed for his own good. I hoped to sow a seed that it wasn't that hard, he didn't need to be that stressed, and that his way of thinking was not normal, so that in time he might find he is able to relax.

 

Thank you for the gratuitous insult by the way.

Edited July 18, 2013 by nicknorman

[mark99]

Just a thought, what happens when two such people have to share a wide lock? I suppose they probably ignore water conservation and decline to share, or if they do there surely must be a punch up whilst its determined who will be the dominant alpha boater who will be in charge of "MY LOCK (which I reluctantly allow you to share as long as you don't talk to me)" What a joy such people being to the waterways!

 

 

But Nick, in your way, the queue behind the lock would grow as you would both be looking hard at each other trying to interpret what the respective microscopic body languages are. Perhaps looking for that raised eyebrow to indicate you lead?

Edited July 18, 2013 by mark99

[nicknorman]

But Nick, in your way, the queue behind the lock would grow as you would both be looking hard at each other trying to interpret what the respective microscopic body languages are. Perhaps looking for that raised eyebrow to indicate you lead?

Hopefully your post is joking, for if you really don't get the power of body language its because you haven't thought about it.

 

Surprisingly we seem to manage to share wide locks without having to call in ACAS, we like most normal people, just get on with it.

[magpie patrick]

Nick, I may have another market for your skills, if you would be so kind... You know, the desire to get people to do things "for their own good"

 

My estranged wife is lonely and short of money, both directly attributable to the fact she decided to leave (She may have had a lot of other emotions before she left, but loneliness wasn't one of them). Could you use your charm and skills to persuade her that it's in her own best interests, whatever she thinks, to come back?

[nicknorman]

Nick, I may have another market for your skills, if you would be so kind... You know, the desire to get people to do things "for their own good"

 

My estranged wife is lonely and short of money, both directly attributable to the fact she decided to leave (She may have had a lot of other emotions before she left, but loneliness wasn't one of them). Could you use your charm and skills to persuade her that it's in her own best interests, whatever she thinks, to come back?

Well I would like to help, but have to take her overall well being into consideration, and bearing in mind the tone of your previous post, it might not be the right thing to do.

 

 

 

 

Well you asked for that one! But in all seriousness, I'm sorry things have turned out as they have and that you are both unhappy with the outcome.

[magpie patrick]

Well I would like to help, but have to take her overall well being into consideration, and bearing in mind the tone of your previous post, it might not be the right thing to do.

 

 

 

And thanks also for your sensitive comments that followed.

[LoneWolf]

Nick, I think i missed your answer to Dave's question as to how one can tell the difference between someone who knows enough to not be winding up paddles etc before my boat is ready and someone who is going to wind them up fast when i'm half way up the ladder.

 

 

As far as chatting at locks is concerned, i dont feel any obligation to chat to other boaters lockside. I'm not going to be rude of unpleasant but I find many lockside conversations (especially with the summer boaters) annoyingly intrusive. Why do people ask personal questions to someone they've just met?

[Bod]

May I sum up?

 

Skilled, experienced help, can be useful.

Unskilled, inexperienced help, can at best be unwelcome, at worst, dangerous.

 

Bod

 

Ps As for tea, should be banned by law!

[Chris Pink]

No, sorry Bod, don't agree.

 

Single handed I can get unskilled inexperienced help working very effectively and safely on my behalf. Especially children opening lock gates, they love it.

 

Carry on lads....

Edited July 18, 2013 by Chris Pink

[nicknorman]

Nick, I think i missed your answer to Dave's question as to how one can tell the difference between someone who knows enough to not be winding up paddles etc before my boat is ready and someone who is going to wind them up fast when i'm half way up the ladder.

 

 

As far as chatting at locks is concerned, i dont feel any obligation to chat to other boaters lockside. I'm not going to be rude of unpleasant but I find many lockside conversations (especially with the summer boaters) annoyingly intrusive. Why do people ask personal questions to someone they've just met?

If you are single handing, I think its trickier because you are at the mercy of those bankside. Someone who winds paddles whilst you are disembarking must surely be incredibly stupid, but I guess it can happen. But whilst I agree this could potentially be a problem, I don't see that it is strictly relevant to my point. In your case, you are worried about actions from people you can't yet communicate with, in my case I am concerned about those who resent being helped unless it can first be clearly established who is in command. These are not quite the same things. If you want me to condemn anyone who winds paddles whilst you are 1/2 way up a ladder, I will gladly do so!

 

As to chatting at locks, I agree it doesn't need to be personal, and in my experience nearly all such chat isn't. I suspect some folk seeing Jeff and I are desperate to ask if we are "an item" but it rarely happens.

[Chris Pink]

Of course, anyone can come up with a daft "paddle opened whilst climbing lock ladder" scenario to reinforce a dubious point.

 

24 years, it's never happened to me.

 

(Cue Mayall - that's 'cos you don't go anywhere useless bullshit)

 

Nor has anyone throwing rocks at me in the lock.... etc etc.

 

Stupid scenarios further no debate.

 

As for the chatting and 'intrusive' questions, why shouldn't people be curious about our lifestyles? I would rather they went away learning something other than "those boaters are a closed and grumpy lot.". I have always thought of boating like the gypsy caravans of old, you're in the curious public gaze, they can see the outside, they can see a small glimpse of shadowy interior but you could be doing whatever you like in there and they'd never know.

[Bod]

No, sorry Bod, don't agree.

 

Single handed I can get unskilled inexperienced help working very effectively and safely on my behalf. Especially children opening lock gates, they love it.

 

Carry on lads....

It's good to see you involving kids, they love to help!

I take it though you are in charge of what they do, and when they do it.

Your skill & experience, their muscle!

The way to go.

 

Bod