sounds like a bag of spanners

[andrea_mcguinn]

Hi all,

A cry out for help again ! Our engine sounds like a bag of spanners and can't find out why. It's a seawolf mk2 petrol. Here's the thing's we've tried, full service, new ignition coil, checked compression which is reading at 125 or above and new ht leads.

 

Please help any advice would be greatly appreciate, we are ment to be going away in 2 and a half week's on her and at the moment, that thought is very bleak. The vibrations are that bad it shakes components of the engine, hence a replacement ignition coil it didn't fair well bouncing around on the z drive.

 

Many thanks in advance

Andrea

[RLWP]

Is that a Watermota based on a Ford crossflow?

 

What kind of ignition system do you have - e.g. points and distributor

 

Richard

[andrea_mcguinn]

Yes, that's the one and it's a points and distributor.

[bizzard]

And the firing order on those engines is 1243 not 1342.

[andrea_mcguinn]

Our mechanic has been firing numbers at us about firing order, but that went straight over my head. He really knows his stuff but has come back baffled !

 

Also forget to mention checked spring valves and they look in good working order.

[RLWP]

Well...

 

The good, old-fashioned reason for bad running is either dirty points, or more likely a failed condenser

 

Richard

[andrea_mcguinn]

A new condenser was fitted Sunday along with regulating and cleaning the points, new plugs and fresh oil.

 

Hence why we are baffled !

[RLWP]

So, you have compression, and you have swapped all of the ignition components. I guess (WARNING) that the timing is right

 

Not a lot left then - must be fuel related

 

Richard

Edited July 9, 2013 by RLWP

[Semitrad]

Well...

 

The good, old-fashioned reason for bad running is either dirty points, or more likely a failed condenser

 

Richard

 

 

The condenser manufacturers have made fortunes from that theory.

[RLWP]

Funny how swapping one often cured weird misfiring, isn't it

 

Richard

[Dalslandia]

My first thought is firing order, then check fireing order in correct order, normally the rotor in the distrubutor rotate in the direction it can be rotated against a spring load, but i have not seen this engine.,

 

then water in the fuel, in the carbs if there is any, or injection, dirt in the injection, that stuck fully open, rare but happends.

[andrea_mcguinn]

Thanks everyone for all your input it's really appreciated.

 

Will have a look around the fuel system and if not that, keep trouble shooting and hope something fixes the problem.

[RLWP]

You don't have a lot of choices left. You need compression, a mixture of fuel and air and a spark delivered at the correct time

 

Your compression test says you have compression, so your pistons and valves are OK

 

You've replaced most of your electrics, so you should have a spark

 

That only leaves the fuel/air mixture - so, carburettor, inlet manifold, um...

 

Richard

[bizzard]

If its a crossflow engine it would normally have an Autolite distributor with a contact breaker gap with point heel on the top of a cam is 25 thou. If an older Lucas distributor the gap would be 12 to 15 thou if I remember correctly, however if the gaps are too wide the ignition will be over advanced if too small, retarded. Every time contact points are renewed, removed, cleaned refitted and re-gapped the ignition timing would really need checking either with a timing light with engine running or static. If I were you I'd first make sure that the HT plug leads are in the correct order and on the right spark plugs.

If the distributor has been removed and not put back correctly with the points just breaking as the rotor passes the correct HT post on the distributor cap it will not run properly if at all. The distributor is driven by the camshaft by a helical gear and has many different teeth positions that it can go back on but only one position is correct and it will not run properly on any other.

To check that the HT plug leads are on the correct plugs;--- If the engine is turned by hand ''clockwise'' looking at the engines front crankshaft pulley ''Its running direction'' the distributor centre cam spindle rotates in an anti-clockwise direction, so,''' IF'' the distributor is more or less in its correct position, looking down on the distributor cap and working in an anti-clockwise direction the top right HT lead should go to No1 plug, the next one on its left goes to No2 plug the next to No4 and the last one to No3.

[Dalslandia]

earth cable, minus or positive i don't know, but check them, fireing order, leaky inlet manifolds. water in carbs, drain them. Lucas system? there is spare harness smoke on glass can to replace old smoke that stoped smoking. ;-)

 

http://www3.telus.net/bc_triumph_registry/smoke.htm

[John Holden]

Yes, that's the one and it's a points and distributor.

 

Bottom end of dizzy, either a broken spring or cracked plate or something like that.

[bizzard]

If its a crossflow engine it would normally have an Autolite distributor with a contact breaker gap with point heel on the top of a cam is 25 thou. If an older Lucas distributor the gap would be 12 to 15 thou if I remember correctly, however if the gaps are too wide the ignition will be over advanced if too small, retarded. Every time contact points are renewed, removed, cleaned refitted and re-gapped the ignition timing would really need checking either with a timing light with engine running or static. If I were you I'd first make sure that the HT plug leads are in the correct order and on the right spark plugs.

If the distributor has been removed and not put back correctly with the points just breaking as the rotor passes the correct HT post on the distributor cap it will not run properly if at all. The distributor is driven by the camshaft by a helical gear and has many different teeth positions that it can go back on but only one position is correct and it will not run properly on any other.

To check that the HT plug leads are on the correct plugs;--- If the engine is turned by hand ''clockwise'' looking at the engines front crankshaft pulley ''Its running direction'' the distributor centre cam spindle rotates in an anti-clockwise direction, so,''' IF'' the distributor is more or less in its correct position, looking down on the distributor cap and working in an anti-clockwise direction the top right HT lead should go to No1 plug, the next one on its left goes to No2 plug the next to No4 and the last one to No3.

Also the coils low tension wires need to be on the correct terminals IG to ignition switch and CB to contact breaker ''distributor''.

[MtB]

Also the coils low tension wires need to be on the correct terminals IG to ignition switch and CB to contact breaker ''distributor''.

My experience too (on BMC A-series engine), but I've never figured out why it would matter.

 

Another thing, in what way does the engine run like 'a bag of spanners'? Misfiring you mean? A Mini engine will still run if the centre two plug leads are accidentally reversed, but like the bag of spanners you mention, I suspect.

 

Is there another thread about this as Bizz jumped straight in with firing order info?

 

 

MtB

[Dalslandia]

If it is not fuel or ignition relatet, something is wrong with the hard stuff.

is something lose at the flywheel end?

how does it behave before it ignite when cranking the engine or the starter?

if it start easy, take the power wire of to the coil, and run it just on starter to see how it behave, just some seconds.

 

Jan

[Bobbybass]

Have you checked that you haven't left a bag of spanners in there ?

[jake_crew]

Also the coils low tension wires need to be on the correct terminals IG to ignition switch and CB to contact breaker ''distributor''.

 

The importance of this is that the HT and LT windings have a common connection ...... the CB terminal.

 

If the coil terminals are marked IG ( or SW standing for ignition switch) and CB, its absolutely clear which terminal is which.

 

But nowadays most coil terminals are marked + and -, so you need to be absolutely certain whether the coil is for a -ve or +ve earth car.

 

If the LT is 2 ohms and the HT 10000, SW to HT would be 10002 ohms. Its very difficult to measure the difference as most meters aren't that accurate.

 

The engine will run if the LT wires are crossed, but not so well as you're getting a smaller spark.

 

 

As an owner of old cars of both earth systems, I keep a look out for coils marked SW and CB to be sure I know how they are wired.

Edited July 10, 2013 by jake_crew

[Tony Brooks]

Also the coils low tension wires need to be on the correct terminals IG to ignition switch and CB to contact breaker ''distributor''.

 

WARNING

 

In general this is correct BUT if the coil is a positive earth one and the engine has been converted to negative earth then the above needs reversing. If the coil is marked + & - then its + to ign. sw. & - to distributor for negative earth. If by chance its positive earth reverse this.

 

Incorrect connection will lead to a low HT voltage and misfires.

 

 

 

Also have a good look at how the wires inside the distributor are fitted to the contacts. It has been known for live terminals to be too close to the distributor body metal so it shorts out with vibration and advance retard movement.

 

Also make sure no insulating washers have been lost or left out. Typically above or below the contact pivot. Where and if required depends upon the distributor.

Edited July 10, 2013 by Tony Brooks

[David Mack]

Have you checked that you haven't left a bag of spanners in there ?

I knew a boater who once left a pair of pliers in the sump of a Bolinder!

[bizzard]

Also a dot of grease on the distributors cam is very very important to lubricate the moving contact breakers heel, without it the heel will wear down rapidly and the engine will stop.

Also a very common cause of bad missfiring is interfiring or engine stoppage caused by a knackered distributor cap, check for any traces of burn tracking lines connecting any of the HT poles inside or outside of the cap. Very common also is the rotor arms plastic can break down and track to earth between the sweep arm and cam spindle.

If a Lucas distributor ''Usually pre Crossflow engines'' with a spring loaded centre carbon HT brush make sure this has not worn out and ceased making contact with the rotor arm. Autolite or Motocraft distributors had a static centre carbon HT brush which can also wear down and loose contact with the spring leaf sweep contact on the rotor arm.

In my opinion although a bit more fiddly to service contact and condenser wise the Lucas distributor was much more reliable than the Autolite- Motocraft one.

[Dalslandia]

Good there, here, is people that still know what a braker is and what it does, ellbow grease become more and more sparse, the todays tech's is covered in anti-flame chemicals only.

 

Blody windy today here. Just saw a sailboat, with the sails down, I dont think I have seen one with the sails up here on the "canal" the last years