Is this normal or did we encounter a complete twunt?

[carlt]

Clearly this forum shows that there isn't a 100% consensus on this issue but the large majority close gates behind them. That should be reason enough to do the same and to campaign for a change in guidance and to build an alternative consensus.

That's just silly.

 

Even if it were true that the majority do as they are told, not what is correct(and I have yet to see any evidence) why should the minority who behave in the correct manner change their practice just because the majority choose to follow a guideline that has no sensible reason to justify it being followed?

 

I shall continue to do what is correct, not what the sheep are told to do.

[saltysplash]

Now you know why he's on his own !

 

Like you I would be upset with his behaviour, but in 10 mins he'll be gone ...in the opposite direction.

 

Forget him and enjoy the rest of your day.

Indeed and, "oh look, his centre line appears to have come loose and has fallen in the water and his boat is drifting out of the lock"

 

Youd think after all his obvious experience he wouldve made sure his line was secure before walking off

[Ex- Member]

Ok, I'll retract the words 'rule' and 'rules' from my previous post and replace them with 'consensus' and 'consensuses'(sic?). Clearly this forum shows that there isn't a 100% consensus on this issue but the large majority close gates behind them. That should be reason enough to do the same and to campaign for a change in guidance and to build an alternative consensus. Rather than just flout it. I'd be more than happy to sign a petition to CaRT to change the guidance to leaving gates open.

 

Well the thread ange linked me to which ran up to this January all 14 pages suggested otherwise from what I read.

 

To claim a 100% consensus is a bit daft when you're debating with those many of whom clearly disagree. Would be an interesting vote of course if people voted on the logic and common sense of the argument rather than an unwillingness to challenge anything written by a government agency or authority.

[Thorfast]

That's just silly.

 

Even if it were true that the majority do as they are told, not what is correct(and I have yet to see any evidence) why should the minority who behave in the correct manner change their practice just because the majority choose to follow a guideline that has no sensible reason to justify it being followed?

 

I shall continue to do what is correct, not what the sheep are told to do.

 

But surely it is only 'correct' by your definition, not by others....they would say what they are doing is 'correct'.

Using the word correct neither confirms it is a 'rule' or 'guidance'

[Jerra]

So if I ask you to leave gates open because that is the most sensible way to leave a lock would you be selfish if you exercise your right to disagree and continue closing them?

If you made a request to me that wasn't over ridden by either law or the wishes of somebody who in my opinion has more right to request how the situation is handled, of course. However in this situation I feel the BW/CRT have the right to request I close the lock gates and I am afraid they have more credence for me than any individual.

 

Its a bit like the NT telling me I should always close a gate and you saying its more sensible to leave it open. I am afraid the NT would win.

 

I also incidentally find it amazing that so many people on the forum complain about the behaviour of new/hire boaters and then decry what is (as far as I know) one of the only easily obtained reasonably simple & comprehensive documents they could use to get some basic idea of what they should be doing.

 

Imagine the scenario person just booked their first canal holiday reading the forum seeing members saying words to the effect of its rubbish its wrong don't read it ignore it will they read it and be slightly more prepared? I don't think so.

[Paul C]

The problem isn't whether leaving gates open or closed is the correct thing to do. The problem is that many boaters get upset by perceiving the actions of others as selfish (note, they might have done the correct thing, but the perception remains). To resolve this type of problem, all we need is a convention ie either leave them open or close them (assuming no other boats coming - then its pretty simple to see that the best thing to do here is to leave them open). A handbook/guide/guidelines etc published and publicised by the navigation authority and a large number of hire firms, as a single point source of information, I believe is a reasonable guideline for determining the convention.

 

carlt and others disagree that the guidelines have any merit, but are short on suggesting a better guide (apart from saying on an internet forum that they are more qualified than Sarina Young).

[Jerra]

I shall continue to do what is correct, not what the sheep are told to do.

Surely what is correct in most cases is what whoever controls the land/facility/canal/whatever wants people to do rather than what any individual no matter how experienced/intelligent etc wants for themselves personally.

[nicknorman]

The amount of water wasted by an open gate pales into insignificance when compared to the water loss caused by shiney Hudson owners, refusing to share wide locks

80)

Oh that's me OK then, my boat may be shiny but i certainly ain't, annual bath day coming up in a few weeks though.

 

 

Hi Dave

 

It's not a rule apparently, just guidance although I couldn't find it in the ridiculously long boaters handbook

As I said in my earlier post, its on page 13 and maybe elsewhere. As I also mentioned, once you venture off the K&A onto the main part of the system, you will find many flights of locks with reminder notices to close all gates and paddles on exit.

 

That is only ignorance of the shiney boat owner. They have no idea what rubbing strakes are for. You can always tell when the upper strakes are painted gloss.

Yes, however for Lucky's benefit you will never see a Hudson with any gloss below the gunnels - well maybe just a bit of gloss scraped off other boats that weren't giving us enough room.

[Ex- Member]

But surely it is only 'correct' by your definition, not by others....they would say what they are doing is 'correct'.

Using the word correct neither confirms it is a 'rule' or 'guidance'

 

There's a big difference between correct and logic. I would prefer to decide things based on logic, and not what someone believes is correct.

 

It simply is not logical to close a lock gate when there's going to be someone wanting to go into it and probably so in a short space of time. This would never pass as acceptable in a time and motion study.

 

Also there are many single handed boaters, leaving gates open assists them greatly. At the end of the day, leaving locks open will benefit more boaters than it would be detrimental. If the only viable argument is that it's written in a hand book to close them, then that's an illogical argument from someone with a closed mind.

[Thorfast]

The amount of water wasted by an open gate pales into insignificance when compared to the water loss caused by shiney Hudson owners, refusing to share wide locks

 

 

 

 

80)

 

Does this happen often?.......I can't think of an instance when a shiney boat owner has refused to share with me ( and my boat is def. NOT shiney! )

[carlt]

But surely it is only 'correct' by your definition, not by others....they would say what they are doing is 'correct'.

Using the word correct neither confirms it is a 'rule' or 'guidance'

No, if you actually think about it you will see that leaving gates open is the better practice resulting in less work for everyone.

 

If you are talking about "protocol" rather than what is the sensible thing to do then I'm afraid I have no interest in such nonsense.

[Thorfast]

There's a big difference between correct and logic. I would prefer to decide things based on logic, and not what someone believes is correct.

 

It simply is not logical to close a lock gate when there's going to be someone wanting to go into it and probably so in a short space of time. This would never pass as acceptable in a time and motion study.

 

Also there are many single handed boaters, leaving gates open assists them greatly. At the end of the day, leaving locks open will benefit more boaters than it would be detrimental. If the only viable argument is that it's written in a hand book to close them, then that's an illogical argument from someone with a closed mind.

Ah....logic......since when has logic been used to define best practice

[carlt]

The problem isn't whether leaving gates open or closed is the correct thing to do.

Yes it is as far as I am concerned.

 

People erroneously thinking I am selfish is of no concern to me whatsoever.

 

(apart from saying on an internet forum that they are more qualified than Sarina Young).

I didn't say I was I said I suspected that I was but if she wants to provide evidence of more appropriate qualifications and greater experience than me then I will happily suspect otherwise.

[Thorfast]

Isn't it interesting how we have all used the words...

rules

guidance

correct

logical

best practice

.......to further our side of the argument....whichever side that may be!

[carlt]

Surely what is correct in most cases is what whoever controls the land/facility/canal/whatever wants people to do rather than what any individual no matter how experienced/intelligent etc wants for themselves personally.

If that were the case then I am sure they would attempt to introduce rules rather than a guide book.

 

Isn't it interesting how we have all used the words...

rules

guidance

correct

logical

best practice

.......to further our side of the argument....whichever side that may be!

Not really.

What other words would you replace them with?

[Paul C]

Yes it is as far as I am concerned.

 

Oh no its not! (As far as I am concerned). I don't think there's been a robust enough argument presented on the water leakage prong. I know that overall, its more efficient for boaters in terms of number of tasks, distance to walk, etc while operating locks (which is what I think your main thrust of the argument is). But this in itself isn't a massive issue, after all its not like people are in a hurry on a canal are they? With these 2 things in balance, I'm happy that either action is okay to do - but my point is that if only half the boaters do one thing (and half the other) it negates the benefits which each side uses in their argument.

[KevMc]

The 'guide' says to leave closed unless a boat is coming in the other direction - well it's pretty damn certain that there is a boat coming in the other direction. Maybe not immediately, but soon enough :-) Problem solved

[Thorfast]

If a boat is travelling behind you (in sight) but no boat is travelling in sight in the other direction, do you still leave the gates open as you leave the lock?

[nicknorman]

 

There's a big difference between correct and logic. I would prefer to decide things based on logic, and not what someone believes is correct.

 

It simply is not logical to close a lock gate when there's going to be someone wanting to go into it and probably so in a short space of time. This would never pass as acceptable in a time and motion study.

 

Also there are many single handed boaters, leaving gates open assists them greatly. At the end of the day, leaving locks open will benefit more boaters than it would be detrimental. If the only viable argument is that it's written in a hand book to close them, then that's an illogical argument from someone with a closed mind.

Although this issue is in danger of being derailed by the usual lot for whom the argument is more important than the issue, the bottom line is that on the main part of the system, everyone closes gates on exit unless another boat is visibly approaching. If you don't you will be talked about in derogatory tones and considered to be of kin with the subject of the OP. So if you feel you know better, and feel no need to follow convention or the guide, that's up to you but don't be surprised at the consequence.

 

If you don't care about annoying others or what other people think about you, I'm afraid that speaks volumes about your character.

 

I think the K&A is a little different, being isolated from the main canal system and in part a river navigation. I also sometimes wonder whether its occupants are mostly all children of Maggie Thatcher. I've never been there but that is an impression I get on here.

Edited May 10, 2013 by nicknorman

[Ex- Member]

The 'guide' says to leave closed unless a boat is coming in the other direction - well it's pretty damn certain that there is a boat coming in the other direction. Maybe not immediately, but soon enough :-) Problem solved

 

 

Careful Kev, you're displaying signs of using complete logic

[carlt]

Oh no its not! (As far as I am concerned).

So the most important thing is to do as you are told regardless if what you are told is wrong?

 

If that is the crux of your argument then I am afraid I would never subscribe to that and so your point is meaningless to me.

 

I believe it is much more important to look at the facts and reach a conclusion as to how I will behave rather than blindly follow the herd.

 

The leaky gates argument is appropriate in a very few cases (which could be signed as the exception to the sensible rule of leaving gates open) and becomes even less appropriate when you are leaving a lock with a fast flowing bywash.

 

If you don't you will be talked about in derogatory tones and considered to be of kin with the subject of the OP. So if you feel you know better, and feel no need to follow convention or the guide, that's up to you but don't be surprised at the consequence.

 

Why should the opinion of someone whose judgement is flawed be of any interest to me?

[Ex- Member]

Although this issue is in danger of being derailed by the usual lot for whom the argument is more important than the issue, the bottom line is that on the main part of the system, everyone closes gates on exit unless another boat is visibly approaching. If you don't you will be talked about in derogatory tones and considered to be of kin with the subject of the OP. So if you feel you know better, and feel no need to follow convention or the guide, that's up to you but don't be surprised at the consequence.

 

I think the K&A is a little different, being isolated from the main canal system and in part a river navigation. I also sometimes wonder whether its occupants are mostly all children of Maggie Thatcher. I've never been there but that is an impression I get on here.

 

Well that wasn't the case when I was on the water there between 2005 and 2007 we on many occasions approached an open lock.

 

I'm certainly no supporter of Thatcher either or one of her children.

Although this issue is in danger of being derailed by the usual lot for whom the argument is more important than the issue, the bottom line is that on the main part of the system, everyone closes gates on exit unless another boat is visibly approaching. If you don't you will be talked about in derogatory tones and considered to be of kin with the subject of the OP. So if you feel you know better, and feel no need to follow convention or the guide, that's up to you but don't be surprised at the consequence.

 

I think the K&A is a little different, being isolated from the main canal system and in part a river navigation. I also sometimes wonder whether its occupants are mostly all children of Maggie Thatcher. I've never been there but that is an impression I get on here.

[Terence]

There's a big difference between correct and logic. I would prefer to decide things based on logic, and not what someone believes is correct.

 

It simply is not logical to close a lock gate when there's going to be someone wanting to go into it and probably so in a short space of time. This would never pass as acceptable in a time and motion study.

 

Also there are many single handed boaters, leaving gates open assists them greatly. At the end of the day, leaving locks open will benefit more boaters than it would be detrimental. If the only viable argument is that it's written in a hand book to close them, then that's an illogical argument from someone with a closed mind.

When you drive your car and stop at a traffic light on red, you can clearly see there is nothing coming from your right, does your logic tell you it is safe for you to turn left and the law is an ass so you do so. No you stay put. That’s because the law says so, Canals can't be policed as the roads are so we have guidelines. Who’s to say they are right or wrong? The trustees have asked us to close Gates then that is what we should do. Nothing to do with as Carl said Sheep etc etc. The Trust have taken a huge responsibility with our Canals so we should help them by adhering to their guidelines

 

With top Gate open, if the gate at the bottom of the lock leaks then water will constantly drain through. If the top gate was closed then this theoretically should help to stop water draining away or at least minimise the loss.

If the top Gate is the leaky one and the bottom gate is sound then the lock would stay full whether the gate was left open or not.

 

But clearly from your replies you will continue to leave gates open no matter what anyone says on this forum. Happy sailing.

[nicknorman]

 

Why should the opinion of someone whose judgement is flawed be of any interest to me?

My comment was addresses to julynian not to you. I wouldn't waste my breath on you because as you say, it would be of no interest to you. You are so wrapped up in your own self righteousness that nothing is likely to impinge. Edited May 10, 2013 by nicknorman

[carlt]

The Trust have taken a huge responsibility with our Canals so we should help them by adhering to their guidelines

Sorry Terence but if the guide book is wrong but we should follow them regardless then it has everything to do with "Sheep".

 

The water wastage argument, except for a few locations, is based on the 70s and early 80s when the system was falling apart and locks didn't hold water.

 

The locks are not in such a poor condition and the torrents of water flowing down the bywashes are testament to this.

 

By all means close gates where lock leakage remains a problem but elsewhere it just makes no sense and I'm afraid I don't do "nonsense".

 

My comment was addresses to julynian not to you. I wouldn't waste my breath on you because as you say, it would be of no interest to you. You are so wrapped up in your own self righteousness that nothing is likely to impinge.

Why do you feel the need to get personal? It merely devalues your argument.

 

This isn't about "self-righteousness" it is a simple mathematical and engineering problem that has one solution.

 

Bringing personal insults into it is irrelevant.