South East Mooring Proposals - As Discussed At The Midlands Meeting

[jenlyn]

According to 2011 Census figures, the population of Milton Keynes is about 248,800

and the population of Birmingham is about 1,073,000

 

How quickly will Milton Keynes be the size of Birmingham, please?

I suppose Mr Welch's virus is contagious, it seems to be spreading. One hopes they find a cure soon.

[Nyx]

I live on my boat, NOT TO AVOID council tax, but BECAUSE I ENJOY THE LIFESTYLE. Do you get that? Do you make a habit of stereotyping folk?

I don't have to pay council tax because I doubt very much I use any of the services. I paid ni and tax all my life plus plenty of council tax. I now have private healthcare and am very environmentally conscious. Just how much blood do you want from this stone, eh?

As an afterthought, can you ask the chap of the hire business up your way to give consideration to other users of the canal on change over days? Several times I have come that way and found the canal obstructed. :-)

 

Well said! There is also VAT, not only on the licence fee, but on mooring fees too, this alone works out to more than I'd pay in council tax. And as for the so called "continuous moorers" as I've commented before, there are many genuine folk who cannot afford to moor in a marina.

 

Regarding the original topic, what if someone wants to spend their holiday cruising to a town to visit relatives hoping to stay at least a week, will this now mean that they will have to move every 2 days or moor miles away in the back of beyond, something as solo female boater, I wouldn't want to do.

[cotswoldsman]

I have been boating now for over 50 years and 50 years ago there were so few boats it did not matter where you moored as long as you were not too close to a bend, bridge or lock where you could be hit by a loaded boat. Things are different now and the two things that have changed is the dramatic increase in the number of boats and linear moorings and the ever increasing number of people living on boats without having a mooring often using some of the best tow path moorings. We must support the IWA and the Trade in promoting 'a waterways for all' and not a waterway for a 'privileged few' who want to live on a boat without a mooring or cruising so as to avoid council tax amongst other things. If you are paying for a mooring when you go boating you want to be sure that when you pass the local village, shop, pub or other attraction that you will be able to moor and visit the area even if only for 24/48 hours. What we need is many more visitor moorings which will not only make cruising more enjoyable but greatly boost the local economy. Apart from one stretch of visitor moorings at the very south end of Milton Keynes at Fenny Stratford there are no CRT visitor moorings in the whole of Milton Keynes (The Parks Trust do have a few at Campbell Park and two at Great Linford). For a town that is to be the size of Birmingham I find this extraordinary. Generally speaking continuous moorer's are responsible people and do not overstay on 24/48 hour moorings but if we have no visitor moorings of course all the best moorings will always be taken by continuous moorers so the simple solution is to have moor visitor moorings which in principle is what the SE moorings review is all about. Do we want MK to end up a no go area for visiting boats like parts of London and the Kennet and Avon canal? We are very lucky to have over 4000 vacant berths in marinas. Is it not reasonable to expect that when you take your boat out of your marina you should expect to find visitor moorings? This will make no difference to 7 and 14 day moorings as they will remain either side of visitor moorings. The whole length of the towpath being 14 day anyway.

 

Not quite sure where to start. may be I will start at the beginning and work my way through your post.

1. Linear Moorings never quite understand why Linear Moorings are a problem there is 2,000 miles of canal that would be enough for about 176,000 boats moored on the canal. If every licensed boat was moored on Linear Moorings that would take up about 350 miles still pleanty of canal left without Linear Moorings

2. Are you saying all the best Visitor Moorings should be reserved for non livaboards?

3. So I am living on my boat because I want to avoid Council Tax! Where am I going wrong? Last year I spent about £1,000 on licence and Insurance and about a further £800 on my engine (Service and some new parts) £2,000 on various bits and pieces to ensure my boat stays safe and in a good condition. Council Tax on my house £1,800 What are the other things I am trying to avoid paying? Not even going into the amount of Income Tax I paid last year.

4. If you come down where I am at present there are loads of vacant Visitor Moorings I have been supporting the local economy for the last 3 months and during that time I have not seen one Hire Boat and maybe about 5 Leisure Boaters. During the last 3 months I have spent about £700 with local Marinas and Coal Boats on fuel and coal,

5. More Visitor Moorings yes certainly needed during June/July/August to cope with the number of boats coming out of marinas not needed for months October - April as Visitor Moorings are mostly empty

6. The SE Mooring Consultation will result in less moorings, can I ask what consultation you are looking at?

 

I see this is your first post can I suggest that maybe you try and get your facts correct on future posts.

[alan_fincher]

Perhaps Martin37 can tell us just how many of his claimed 4000 unoccupied marina berths are in the South East region of CRT? For those of the 4000 that are not, how are they in any way relevant to this debate, please?

 

More than a few red herrings in that post, I think!

[cotswoldsman]

Perhaps Martin37 can tell us just how many of his claimed 4000 unoccupied marina berths are in the South East region of CRT? For those of the 4000 that are not, how are they in any way relevant to this debate, please?

 

More than a few red herrings in that post, I think!

 

If there were 4,000 Marina spaces in the SE then I guess this would help some of the 4,000 to 6,000 boats moored between Bulls bridge and Tottenham get Vaughan on the case think he would get on well with Martin37

[Tuscan]

Where I do agree with him however is that more visitor moorings would be a good thing in many areas and the consultation I do not believe addresses this. I have always managed to moor in Milton Keynes on the towpath although it has got harder in recent years as it is an area that has got much more popular with continuous cruisers that would appear to like the long lock free pounds.

[jenlyn]

What is it with VM's?

I find myself embroiled in this even though I don't look to moor on them, and seldom do. On the few occasions I have had to use them, it's been because the mooring either side of them has either been poor quality to tie to, or too shallow.

[alan_fincher]

Apart from one stretch of visitor moorings at the very south end of Milton Keynes at Fenny Stratford there are no CRT visitor moorings in the whole of Milton Keynes (The Parks Trust do have a few at Campbell Park and two at Great Linford). For a town that is to be the size of Birmingham I find this extraordinary.

I believe your error about the size of Milton Keynes versus Birmigham has already been corrected!

 

However none-the-less I'm guess Milton Keynes embraces maybe 12 miles of the Grand Union, so well over 63,000 feet of canal. Even assuming that (conservatively) only half of that is "moorable" by visiting boats, that would still allow mooring of around 450 70 foot boats, wouldn't it? It is surely stretching imagination to believe that we are anywhere close to approaching a problem where you can't moor up reasonably close to any part of the MK environs you might wish to be in.

 

Comparisons with Birmingham and London are meaningless in my view. Both these are major cities, with very distinct areas that visiting boaters quite reasonably wish to get near. Whatever you think of Milton Keynes, it is still largely a mixture of older towns and villages, with slowly increasing amounts of new housing in between, but a fair bit of it still rural, and with no obvious centres of great activity that are going to cause visiting boats to all want to tie up at the same sots in large numbers. Central Milton Keynes is not particularly close, and I can't see extra dedicated visitor moorings suddenly making it a major tourist attraction for canal boaters. There are large amounts of tow-path near all popular pubs, and having to walk more than a couple of hundred miles to any after mooring would be highly unusual.

 

I actually think it fairly irrelevant to create designated visitor moorings in any number at locations like MK - why do you need them, if you can pick any bit of bank, and moor with few problems?

 

If it really concerns you, however, then your list of existing VMs is incomplete, according to CRT, who recognise in addition 14 day moorings at Old Wolverton, and a mix of 48hr and 14 day moorings at Black Horse. I guess the 48 hour moorings at Cosgrove lie just outside the MK area, although of course this is a more popular tying up location for many visiting boaters.

 

I have always managed to moor in Milton Keynes on the towpath although it has got harder in recent years as it is an area that has got much more popular with continuous cruisers that would appear to like the long lock free pounds.

Which areas of Milton Keynes would you suggest it has become hard to tie up in, and at what times are there difficulties, please?

 

Nobody disputes there are a lot of boaters there with no declared home mooring, but as there is about 12 miles of Milton Keynes, most of what you boat past is surely unoccupied bank, rather than tied up boats? Yes, many people might prefer to tie up immediately outside the Plough, for instance, rather than 100 yards from it, but is there (for example) a pub you have not been able to visit because of CC-er numbers?

 

We seem to me to continue to be dragging the issue of non-compliant CC-ers into a debate about restricted stay times at visitor moorings, but they are not the same thing.

 

If you can't control a "non-compliant" CC-er on a 14 day mooring, nobody has yet convinced me you will have a greater success on a 2 day mooring.

 

Why will restricting stay times for "compliant" boaters deal with a problem of those who do not comply with current rules?

[Alan de Enfield]

There are large amounts of tow-path near all popular pubs, and having to walk more than a couple of hundred miles to any after mooring would be highly unusual.

 

 

 

 

Agreed !

[TNC]

From a boating aspect, who the hell wants to stop in central Milton Keynes! It is certainly high up in TNC's list of most boring bits of canal....the Paddington Arm of the GU is another...best done in the dark, to add a slight excitement factor...

[churchward]

The thought that you can charge for overstaying at a vm is silly. If you overstay at a vm, your breaking the rules. You get fined for breaking rules. The fact there is no real service provided for such an over the top charge is also silly, and I have no doubt CRT would lose substantial ground if they tested it in court and lost. Also, perhaps if the licence terms are so clear to you, CRT should come to you rather than shoesmiths.

I don't care what it is called the charge is supposed to be a deterrent not overstaying.

 

I am not saying all the licence terms are clear just the bit I quoted is very clear to me.

[jenlyn]

I don't care what it is called the charge is supposed to be a deterrent not overstaying.

 

I am not saying all the licence terms are clear just the bit I quoted is very clear to me.

Surely describing it as a deterrent, would suggest its a fine?

[churchward]

 

If you can't control a "non-compliant" CC-er on a 14 day mooring, nobody has yet convinced me you will have a greater success on a 2 day mooring.

 

Why will restricting stay times for "compliant" boaters deal with a problem of those who do not comply with current rules?

That is true people who have no care for the rules no matter how they are defined are not likely to obey some new ones on a VM.

 

I do think though that if the the VMs are defined and managed properly at the most congested or popular spots issues of overstaying at them will be minimise and so give folk a better chance of mooring at these spots when they want to.

 

I do not agree with all the proposed changes but I do think that in many places the signage could be clearer and better enforcement (of present rules) would be useful. I think this is likely to be as fruitful as the focus on licence evasion has been,

 

Surely describing it as a deterrent, would suggest its a fine?

quite frankly I do not care what it is called.

[Tuscan]

I believe your error about the size of Milton Keynes versus Birmigham has already been corrected!

 

However none-the-less I'm guess Milton Keynes embraces maybe 12 miles of the Grand Union, so well over 63,000 feet of canal. Even assuming that (conservatively) only half of that is "moorable" by visiting boats, that would still allow mooring of around 450 70 foot boats, wouldn't it? It is surely stretching imagination to believe that we are anywhere close to approaching a problem where you can't moor up reasonably close to any part of the MK environs you might wish to be in.

 

Comparisons with Birmingham and London are meaningless in my view. Both these are major cities, with very distinct areas that visiting boaters quite reasonably wish to get near. Whatever you think of Milton Keynes, it is still largely a mixture of older towns and villages, with slowly increasing amounts of new housing in between, but a fair bit of it still rural, and with no obvious centres of great activity that are going to cause visiting boats to all want to tie up at the same sots in large numbers. Central Milton Keynes is not particularly close, and I can't see extra dedicated visitor moorings suddenly making it a major tourist attraction for canal boaters. There are large amounts of tow-path near all popular pubs, and having to walk more than a couple of hundred miles to any after mooring would be highly unusual.

 

I actually think it fairly irrelevant to create designated visitor moorings in any number at locations like MK - why do you need them, if you can pick any bit of bank, and moor with few problems?

 

If it really concerns you, however, then your list of existing VMs is incomplete, according to CRT, who recognise in addition 14 day moorings at Old Wolverton, and a mix of 48hr and 14 day moorings at Black Horse. I guess the 48 hour moorings at Cosgrove lie just outside the MK area, although of course this is a more popular tying up location for many visiting boaters.

 

 

Which areas of Milton Keynes would you suggest it has become hard to tie up in, and at what times are there difficulties, please?

 

Nobody disputes there are a lot of boaters there with no declared home mooring, but as there is about 12 miles of Milton Keynes, most of what you boat past is surely unoccupied bank, rather than tied up boats? Yes, many people might prefer to tie up immediately outside the Plough, for instance, rather than 100 yards from it, but is there (for example) a pub you have not been able to visit because of CC-er numbers?

 

We seem to me to continue to be dragging the issue of non-compliant CC-ers into a debate about restricted stay times at visitor moorings, but they are not the same thing.

 

If you can't control a "non-compliant" CC-er on a 14 day mooring, nobody has yet convinced me you will have a greater success on a 2 day mooring.

 

Why will restricting stay times for "compliant" boaters deal with a problem of those who do not comply with current rules?

 

 

Nowhere in my post did I state that I was bashing continuous cruisers or did I suggest that any boat was moored illegally , I appreciate you may not have noticed but others including myself have observed that the number of boats moored along the tow path through Milton Keynes have increased fairly substantially over the last few years for whatever reason . As I have posted previously I do not agree with the consultation as CRT have produced no evidence in support that there is a serious problem at the majority of visitor moorings caused by overstaying. I am however not blinkered to the fact that there are some boaters that are flouting the current regulations which I believe CRT are now trying to enforce with a bit more vigour and personally I suspect that's all that's needed in the vast majority of cases.

 

However as I mentioned and you were kind enough to requote I stated that I have always managed to get in at the towpath although this is getting harder. In 2012 seeing as you asked we were unable to get within 100 yards of both the Plough and The Black Horse although I didn't see that as a huge problem as I prefer to moor just past Gt Linford by the ruined church or walk several hundred yards if I need to. I have had greater problems trying to get within several 100 yards of the shop and services or the bridge to get into Linford Park (appreciate there are sme long stay moorings there).

[churchward]

 

 

Comparisons with Birmingham and London are meaningless in my view. Both these are major cities, with very distinct areas that visiting boaters quite reasonably wish to get near.

Birmingham is in a unique position with the many existing network of canals in the BCN. This does not mean there are not hotspots of course in the VM sense.

 

To digress a little I think CRT and Birmingham council have a huge opportunity to help regenerate and use under utilised parts and dead end branches of the BCN for affordable moorings residential and otherwise

[jenlyn]

I dont really think you need to change VM's to police them any better. Just police them properly now.

Its turning into a farcical band wagon with no real basis, and definitely no direction. The money wasted on it would be better spent making a mile either side of a VM better for mooring. Its ass about face and bad management trying to impose these visitor mooring regs when you have not firstly ensured sufficient mooring either side in the first place. It seems reality, honesty and sheer stupidity are simmering nicely in merlins spell pot. I just wonder what flippin concoction will end up in the next bye laws spell book.

[cloggy]

Slightly off topic.

Here is an example of a 48hr VM on the Shroppie (Note the boot baths to stop you getting mud on the boat). Apart from the very muddy 5 day moorings a bit further up the cut there is no where to moor for about 1 mile.

Well worth £25 if only for the boot baths.

[matty40s]

Slightly off topic.

Here is an example of a 48hr VM on the Shroppie (Note the boot baths to stop you getting mud on the boat). Apart from the very muddy 5 day moorings a bit further up the cut there is no where to moor for about 1 mile.

Well worth £25 if only for the boot baths.

That looks like Gnossal, we'd better hurry then or there will be no space with free bootbath left.

[Martin37]

If there were 4,000 Marina spaces in the SE then I guess this would help some of the 4,000 to 6,000 boats moored between Bulls bridge and Tottenham get Vaughan on the case think he would get on well with Martin37

I am not sure how many of the 4000 marina spaces are in the SE but I do now all the marinas in the Braunston area have spaces. Perhaps the best people to ask are CRT themselves.

 

According to 2011 Census figures, the population of Milton Keynes is about 248,800

and the population of Birmingham is about 1,073,000

 

How quickly will Milton Keynes be the size of Birmingham, please?

Not sure on this one but what I do know is that when MK was first planned in the 60s us locals were told it would end up the size of Birmingham.

[Martin37]

Well said! There is also VAT, not only on the licence fee, but on mooring fees too, this alone works out to more than I'd pay in council tax. And as for the so called "continuous moorers" as I've commented before, there are many genuine folk who cannot afford to moor in a marina.

 

Regarding the original topic, what if someone wants to spend their holiday cruising to a town to visit relatives hoping to stay at least a week, will this now mean that they will have to move every 2 days or moor miles away in the back of beyond, something as solo female boater, I wouldn't want to do.

Yes I have to also pay VAT and a license and mooring fee and council tax.

By continuous moorer I mean a boat which has a continuous cruiser license but does not continually cruise. I am sorry if I did not make this clear. I have nothing against people living on boats as long as they abide by the license rules set by CRT.

By having more 24/48 visitor moorings will not make any difference to visiting relatives. You just moor on a visitor 7 or 14 day mooring.

 

Not quite sure where to start. may be I will start at the beginning and work my way through your post.

1. Linear Moorings never quite understand why Linear Moorings are a problem there is 2,000 miles of canal that would be enough for about 176,000 boats moored on the canal. If every licensed boat was moored on Linear Moorings that would take up about 350 miles still pleanty of canal left without Linear Moorings

2. Are you saying all the best Visitor Moorings should be reserved for non livaboards?

3. So I am living on my boat because I want to avoid Council Tax! Where am I going wrong? Last year I spent about £1,000 on licence and Insurance and about a further £800 on my engine (Service and some new parts) £2,000 on various bits and pieces to ensure my boat stays safe and in a good condition. Council Tax on my house £1,800 What are the other things I am trying to avoid paying? Not even going into the amount of Income Tax I paid last year.

4. If you come down where I am at present there are loads of vacant Visitor Moorings I have been supporting the local economy for the last 3 months and during that time I have not seen one Hire Boat and maybe about 5 Leisure Boaters. During the last 3 months I have spent about £700 with local Marinas and Coal Boats on fuel and coal,

5. More Visitor Moorings yes certainly needed during June/July/August to cope with the number of boats coming out of marinas not needed for months October - April as Visitor Moorings are mostly empty

6. The SE Mooring Consultation will result in less moorings, can I ask what consultation you are looking at?

 

I see this is your first post can I suggest that maybe you try and get your facts correct on future posts.

Sorry no room to reply to all your questions. Nothing wrong with linear moorings as long as they abide by the CRT licensing rules.

 

Not quite sure where to start. may be I will start at the beginning and work my way through your post.

1. Linear Moorings never quite understand why Linear Moorings are a problem there is 2,000 miles of canal that would be enough for about 176,000 boats moored on the canal. If every licensed boat was moored on Linear Moorings that would take up about 350 miles still pleanty of canal left without Linear Moorings

2. Are you saying all the best Visitor Moorings should be reserved for non livaboards?

3. So I am living on my boat because I want to avoid Council Tax! Where am I going wrong? Last year I spent about £1,000 on licence and Insurance and about a further £800 on my engine (Service and some new parts) £2,000 on various bits and pieces to ensure my boat stays safe and in a good condition. Council Tax on my house £1,800 What are the other things I am trying to avoid paying? Not even going into the amount of Income Tax I paid last year.

4. If you come down where I am at present there are loads of vacant Visitor Moorings I have been supporting the local economy for the last 3 months and during that time I have not seen one Hire Boat and maybe about 5 Leisure Boaters. During the last 3 months I have spent about £700 with local Marinas and Coal Boats on fuel and coal,

5. More Visitor Moorings yes certainly needed during June/July/August to cope with the number of boats coming out of marinas not needed for months October - April as Visitor Moorings are mostly empty

6. The SE Mooring Consultation will result in less moorings, can I ask what consultation you are looking at?

 

I see this is your first post can I suggest that maybe you try and get your facts correct on future posts.

Sorry no room to reply to all your questions. Nothing wrong with linear moorings as long as they abide by the CRT licensing rules.

[alan_fincher]

By having more 24/48 visitor moorings will not make any difference to visiting relatives. You just moor on a visitor 7 or 14 day mooring.

Only if they actually leave anything at more than 2 days.

 

Have you actually looked at the proposals in detail?

 

At some locations there will be no visitor mooring available near big towns that allow anything beyond a 2 day stay.

 

You can't moor on a 14 day mooring if they have got rid of all moorable bank in that town in favour of 2 day.

[oarfish]

You can't moor on a 14 day mooring if they have got rid of all moorable bank in that town in favour of 2 day.

 

Oxford seems a pretty hostile environment for cruising boaters due to this. Add the vagaries of the Thames and overstaying is inevitable.

[Grace and Favour]

Oxford seems a pretty hostile environment for cruising boaters due to this. Add the vagaries of the Thames and overstaying is inevitable.

 

These damnable vagaries get everywhere . . . . .

 

We've vagaries in the Midlands, and vagaries in the North . . . .

 

 

And don't even get me started on Eastern Bloc Vagaries.............

[cotswoldsman]

I am not sure how many of the 4000 marina spaces are in the SE but I do now all the marinas in the Braunston area have spaces. Perhaps the best people to ask are CRT themselves.

 

 

 

 

What use is a mooring space in Braunston to someone that works in London? Biy like saying there are mooring spaces on The Leeds and Liverpool

[sueb]

What use is a mooring space in London if you can't legally moor there?