Types of engine/efficiency

[onionbargee]

and probably not the last.

 

I do admire those that can live with a 'vintage' and are willing to put in the hours to look after them.

 

 

what hours ? most of the old Listers are made to run for years with minimum maintanence, and still have plenty stocks of parts off the shelf ( except FR's ) the rest of the parts are over engineered and last forever. And having the engine sitting in it's own engine room means you can access every where on it, and see any leaks or problems immediately.

[Rustykev]

My two penneth worth.

 

We have a RN DM2. Fuel consumption is 0.6-0.8 l/hr. Drinks oil, but hey..... I do not like running it just to charge batteries as it is not working hard enough, but I recognise that we have little other option for those days we don't cruise and there is insufficient sun for the panels (when on board Leo, we are, in effect CC'ers, moving most days).

 

However, when stationary and we start Russell, the whole boat "comes alive" thanks to the rigid mounting - comforting yes, but not ideal for a quiet sunday afternoon.

 

A DM3 will obviously be thirstier, but unlikely to exceed the 1 l/hr. However, being a 3 cyl, it should be more balanced than a 2 pot and hence less intrusive on the rest of the boat. Also, it is likely to be really too big for sensible canal use. Not only will you need a meaty prop to use the power, you are likely to draw more than most boats and thus struggle through some of the shallower waterways.

 

Spares are expensive yes, but no more in real terms than modern engines.

 

As for the Beta Tug, I am unable to comment, other than if Leo had not come along with its RN, we would have loked at Tug engined boats.

[John V]

8 litre 6 cyl normally aspirated 160 bhp at 2200 I am way over engined and overpropped so do 11 kts at 1500 rpm, has an exhaust like a drainpipe and sounds like one of the older tug engines, just grumbles away.

 

edited to add....was originally going to rebuild a 6LW but Watermota made me an offer I couldn't turn down.

 

Just re-read this....MAKES ME SOUND LIKE A PLONKER....When I said it sounds like a tug I wasn't talking about the same type of tug that you are used to talking about, I was meaning the type that I normally come across, Dock tugs and river tugs, usually with big Gardners, Polars, or even Lister Blackstones......very different animals!

[bottle]

Whoah!!

 

My litle post sure bought out the 'vintage' engine brigade.

 

Now just go back into your engine rooms and get polishing and if you do not polish it, you hould be ashamed of yourselves.

 

Edited November 3, 2012 by bottle

[MtB]

I'm still doing my homework so here's another piece of string question.

 

I need 2 seperate living spaces and the types of boat I've been looking at (with back cabins) tend to have older "interesting" engines. All well and good on the surface and another dimension to the attraction of narrowboats for me.

 

<snip>

 

1 has a "Beta Marine J D 3 Tug engine"

 

1 has a "1946 vintage 3-cylinder 45HP Russell Newbery diesel engine"

 

 

Point of order here Mr Hunter. The way you phrase your question seem to suggest you class the Beta Marine JD3 as an 'older, interesting engine'. Not so. It is a modern engine wearing a bowler hat and neckerchief. I used to have the preceding model the (Beta BD3 tug) in my boat and did a very workmanlike job of pushing the boat around, but like all modern engines, it HAD NO SOUL. So I flogged it and installed a proper vintage motor, a Kelvin K1. WHAT a contrast.

 

 

 

 

Any comments on the thirst of these engines for full time living aboard? Let alone pottering about, if I'm to run them every day for battery charging and they're inefficient, perhaps it should be a deal breaker and set me off looking at different style boats with more modern engines and scope to adapt the interior for our needs. Or maybe if there's not such a great difference compared to say a modern engine or old taxi engine, get a genny for battery charging?

 

Thanks again patient people. I'm all ears.

 

It pains me to see ANY propulsion engine being run for hours on end for battery charging/water heating. What a way to abuse an engine and in addition, if you are anywhere near other occupied boats it is plain Bad Manners (in my opinion). Get a nice quiet suitcase generator and a Morco

 

Mike

 

P.S. or even better, a silent cocooned diesel genny installed under the tug deck!

[by'eck]

My two penneth worth.

 

We have a RN DM2. Fuel consumption is 0.6-0.8 l/hr. Drinks oil, but hey..... I do not like running it just to charge batteries as it is not working hard enough, but I recognise that we have little other option for those days we don't cruise and there is insufficient sun for the panels (when on board Leo, we are, in effect CC'ers, moving most days).

 

However, when stationary and we start Russell, the whole boat "comes alive" thanks to the rigid mounting - comforting yes, but not ideal for a quiet sunday afternoon.

 

A DM3 will obviously be thirstier, but unlikely to exceed the 1 l/hr. However, being a 3 cyl, it should be more balanced than a 2 pot and hence less intrusive on the rest of the boat. Also, it is likely to be really too big for sensible canal use. Not only will you need a meaty prop to use the power, you are likely to draw more than most boats and thus struggle through some of the shallower waterways.

 

Spares are expensive yes, but no more in real terms than modern engines.

 

As for the Beta Tug, I am unable to comment, other than if Leo had not come along with its RN, we would have loked at Tug engined boats.

 

That's why it uses so little diesel

[MtB]

That's why it uses so little diesel

 

Indeed, and if you are buying a boat with a vintage engine, be very wary when you see a 25 litre drum or two of Morrisons SAE30 standing in the corner of the engine room., a common sight in boats with vintage engines. Bolinders especially. Ask yourself why buy oil in such large quantities!

 

I looked over TACKLEY (currently on sale at Braunston) when it was for sale at Whilton a few years ago and decided not to buy it for this exact reason! Dunno if the engine has since been rebuilt.

 

Mike

[Timleech]

Indeed, and if you are buying a boat with a vintage engine, be very wary when you see a 25 litre drum or two of Morrisons SAE30 standing in the corner of the engine room., a common sight in boats with vintage engines. Bolinders especially. Ask yourself why buy oil in such large quantities!

 

 

Mike

 

Bolinders are a special case, in that they have total-loss lubrication.

 

A lot of older engines, especially the purpose-built marine units, have large sumps and it makes sense to buy oil in a big enough quantity to fill the sump.

They generally have a correspondingly long oil change interval. A 25l drum isn't necessarily an indication of heavy oil use.

 

That said, Nationals and RNs do have a reputation for being 'self-basting' (Tim Woods' phrase, I think).

 

There's one Lister marine engine that I work on from time to time which has a 1000 hour recommended oil change.

It's not in a narrow boat, though!

 

Tim

[Rustykev]

Indeed, and if you are buying a boat with a vintage engine, be very wary when you see a 25 litre drum or two of Morrisons SAE30 standing in the corner of the engine room., a common sight in boats with vintage engines. Bolinders especially. Ask yourself why buy oil in such large quantities!

 

 

Mike

 

Simple economics Mike. An oil change every 300hrs or so takes 2 gallons of sae30. Your friendly chandlers charges about £20 for a 5l can (or suppose "plastic" is more apt these days). Buy 25l drum direct from Morris, and it sets you back about £80. I'm up for saving £20!!

[Tony Brooks]

Simple economics Mike. An oil change every 300hrs or so takes 2 gallons of sae30. Your friendly chandlers charges about £20 for a 5l can (or suppose "plastic" is more apt these days). Buy 25l drum direct from Morris, and it sets you back about £80. I'm up for saving £20!!

 

 

Or buy 5 litre cans of reputable second line oil from a motor factors for about £12 and save even more. Typically Comma Premium 20W50 API CC or their HD30 API CC.

[onionbargee]

When you say "Beta tug engine" you mean a de-rated John Deere tractor engine with junk bolted to it ! no thanks.

[boathunter]

Thanks everyone for continuing to patiently educate me.

 

As I'm sure is obvious, I'm only just starting to consider engines. The whole shebang is fascinating to me - I love learning. My head's still spinning over the possibilities of electricals which I keep coming back to hoping that a little at a time will sink in. In between for a little light relief I fill the gaps with bogs, engines, fridges, heating... you know the score.

 

Back to the engines - coming from a position of complete ignorance, having to run your propulsion engine with just alternator load for several hours a day in order to charge batteries was rather a surprise TBH. On the face of it rather an odd thing to do, yet this seems to be the most common set-up? I am attracted to boats with cacooned generators, but not sure why. Perhaps because they're quite an expensive thing to add at a later date. They seem quite a rarity on the boats I've looked into at so far and I wonder why that is.

[bizzard]

Thanks everyone for continuing to patiently educate me.

 

As I'm sure is obvious, I'm only just starting to consider engines. The whole shebang is fascinating to me - I love learning. My head's still spinning over the possibilities of electricals which I keep coming back to hoping that a little at a time will sink in. In between for a little light relief I fill the gaps with bogs, engines, fridges, heating... you know the score.

 

Back to the engines - coming from a position of complete ignorance, having to run your propulsion engine with just alternator load for several hours a day in order to charge batteries was rather a surprise TBH. On the face of it rather an odd thing to do, yet this seems to be the most common set-up? I am attracted to boats with cacooned generators, but not sure why. Perhaps because they're quite an expensive thing to add at a later date. They seem quite a rarity on the boats I've looked into at so far and I wonder why that is.

If you mean the permanently built in diesel ones, very expensive and not portable if you need to use the generator elswhere.

[boathunter]

If you mean the permanently built in diesel ones, very expensive and not portable if you need to use the generator elswhere.

But if a boat just happened to have one is it something that would get used or an expensive white elephant? I don't envisage needing one away from the boat - I intend to scrape a living as mobile vehicle mechanic but peeps have 240V at their houses...

 

On a litres fuel/kw basis I read genny's are comparitively inefficient on a light load. I need to read up some more...

[bizzard]

But if a boat just happened to have one is it something that would get used or an expensive white elephant? I don't envisage needing one away from the boat - I intend to scrape a living as mobile vehicle mechanic but peeps have 240V at their houses...

 

On a litres fuel/kw basis I read genny's are comparitively inefficient on a light load. I need to read up some more...

If the boat happened to have one you'd probably use it. A common permanently installed and plumbed in one is the water cooled Mase diesel cocooned generator.

[dmr]

I think the charging from a generator vs charging from the main engine debate is almost an a par with pump-out vs cassette, and is certainly worthy of its own thread.

It really depends on the lifestyle you plan to lead, and also the type of boat that you have.

A big diesel genny takes up space, is expensive, and is another engine to look after.

A little petrol genny is cheap, but then you will need to keep petrol on the boat (unless you get a gas conversion)

If you plan to mostly be a tow path continuous moorer then a genny makes sense.

If you plan to cruise quite a lot a genny starts to be less of an advantage.

You are thinking about a trad engine room boat and this puts another slant on things as the engine will also be putting some very useful heat into the boat in winter. If you get a travelpower you can run the washing machine too, so running the main engine starts to make a lot more sense, especially as you have just learned that trad style engines are fuel efficient.

 

..........Dave

[boathunter]

I think the charging from a generator vs charging from the main engine debate is almost an a par with pump-out vs cassette, and is certainly worthy of its own thread.

It really depends on the lifestyle you plan to lead, and also the type of boat that you have.

A big diesel genny takes up space, is expensive, and is another engine to look after.

A little petrol genny is cheap, but then you will need to keep petrol on the boat (unless you get a gas conversion)

If you plan to mostly be a tow path continuous moorer then a genny makes sense.

If you plan to cruise quite a lot a genny starts to be less of an advantage.

You are thinking about a trad engine room boat and this puts another slant on things as the engine will also be putting some very useful heat into the boat in winter. If you get a travelpower you can run the washing machine too, so running the main engine starts to make a lot more sense, especially as you have just learned that trad style engines are fuel efficient.

 

..........Dave

Thanks Dave, but have I not also just learned that running an old style engine on low load is bad for it?

 

I'll be doing both about 50/50 by the looks of it - cruising throughout the summer and parking up for the winter. This will suit my work well as it's winter when people want their campers mending and in the winter, cruising becomes difficult with closures and I imagine not so much fun as in the summer anyway. So just when I need the heat, chances are I won't be going far. Sods law at work.

 

If the boat happened to have one you'd probably use it. A common permanently installed and plumbed in one is the water cooled Mase diesel cocooned generator.

Thanks Bizz - I'll have a read up this evening. Just found more plaster falling off the wall - best get on with that.