Vintage Engines

[mark99]

Southern GU near Berko.

 

Leo.

 

 

PM sent to you Leo.

 

Mark

[MtB]

Don't forget to ask to see the Kelvins hand-started on petrol. FAR more impressive than pressing the starter motor button!

[onionbargee]

quote...

 

"Diesel engines can suffer damage as a result of misapplication or misuse - namely internal glazing (occasionally referred to as bore glazing or piling) and carbon buildup. Ideally, diesel engines should be run at least 60% to 75% of their maximum rated load. Short periods of low load running are permissible providing the set is brought up to full load, or close to full load on a regular basis.

Internal glazing and carbon buildup is due to prolonged periods of running at low speeds or low loads. Such conditions may occur when an engine is left idling as a 'standby' generating unit, ready to run up when needed, (misuse); if the engine powering the set is over-powered (misapplication) for the load applied to it, causing the diesel unit to be under-loaded, or as is very often the case, when sets are started and run off load as a test (misuse).

Running an engine under low loads causes low cylinder pressures and consequent poor piston ring sealing since this relies on the gas pressure to force them against the oil film on the bores to form the seal. Low cylinder pressures causes poor combustion and resultant low combustion pressures and temperatures.

This poor combustion leads to soot formation and unburnt fuel residues which clogs and gums piston rings, which causes a further drop in sealing efficiency and exacerbates the initial low pressure. Glazing occurs when hot combustion gases blow past the now poorly-sealing piston rings, causing the lubricating oil on the cylinder walls to 'flash burn', creating an enamel-like glaze which smooths the bore and removes the effect of the intricate pattern of honing marks machined into the bore surface which are there to hold oil and return it to the crankcase via the scraper ring.

Hard carbon also forms from poor combustion and this is highly abrasive and scrapes the honing marks on the bores leading to bore polishing, which then leads to increased oil consumption (blue smoking) and yet further loss of pressure, since the oil film trapped in the honing marks is intended to maintain the piston seal and pressures.

Unburnt fuel then leaks past the piston rings and contaminates the lubricating oil. Poor combustion causes the injectors to become clogged with soot, causing further deterioration in combustion and black smoking.

The problem is increased further with the formation of acids in the engine oil caused by condensed water and combustion by-products which would normally boil off at higher temperatures. This acidic build-up in the lubricating oil causes slow but ultimately damaging wear to bearing surfaces.

This cycle of degradation means that the engine soon becomes irreversibly damaged and may not start at all and will no longer be able to reach full power when required.

Under-loaded running inevitably causes not only white smoke from unburnt fuel but over time will be joined by blue smoke of burnt lubricating oil leaking past the damaged piston rings, and black smoke caused by damaged injectors. This pollution is unacceptable to the authorities and neighbors.

Once glazing or carbon build up has occurred, it can only be cured by stripping down the engine and re-boring the cylinder bores, machining new honing marks and stripping, cleaning and de-coking combustion chambers, fuel injector nozzles and valves. If detected in the early stages, running an engine at maximum load to raise the internal pressures and temperatures allows the piston rings to scrape glaze off the bores and allows carbon buildup to be burnt off. However, if glazing has progressed to the stage where the piston rings have seized into their grooves, this will not have any effect."

 

So while you may have restored a big engine, Mr Gardner or Mr kelvin is spinning in his grave at you abusing his fine piece of engineering.

 

much of the reason detre of fitting bigger and bigger engines is one-up-man-ship, narrow boats navigating muddy ditches were never mean't to have such engines.

 

 

( give me a minute to get my tin hat on, and get down the bunker )

Edited September 16, 2012 by onionbargee

[Proper Job]

Actually I don't think Mr Kelvin (Walter Bergius) would mind at all

 

The K series engine was designed to be operated at low load, low speed and low temperature for long periods of time.

 

That is why they do work in NB's

[Athy]

I'm not sure if the various Mr. Gardners would mind either: the most commonly-used Gardner in canal boats is the 2LW which, at 2.8 litres and 28 h.p., is hardly a leviathan.

[Proper Job]

quote...

 

"Diesel engines can suffer damage as a result of misapplication or misuse - namely internal glazing (occasionally referred to as bore glazing or piling) and carbon buildup. Ideally, diesel engines should be run at least 60% to 75% of their maximum rated load. Short periods of low load running are permissible providing the set is brought up to full load, or close to full load on a regular basis.

Internal glazing and carbon buildup is due to prolonged periods of running at low speeds or low loads. Such conditions may occur when an engine is left idling as a 'standby' generating unit, ready to run up when needed, (misuse); if the engine powering the set is over-powered (misapplication) for the load applied to it, causing the diesel unit to be under-loaded, or as is very often the case, when sets are started and run off load as a test (misuse).

Running an engine under low loads causes low cylinder pressures and consequent poor piston ring sealing since this relies on the gas pressure to force them against the oil film on the bores to form the seal. Low cylinder pressures causes poor combustion and resultant low combustion pressures and temperatures.

This poor combustion leads to soot formation and unburnt fuel residues which clogs and gums piston rings, which causes a further drop in sealing efficiency and exacerbates the initial low pressure. Glazing occurs when hot combustion gases blow past the now poorly-sealing piston rings, causing the lubricating oil on the cylinder walls to 'flash burn', creating an enamel-like glaze which smooths the bore and removes the effect of the intricate pattern of honing marks machined into the bore surface which are there to hold oil and return it to the crankcase via the scraper ring.

Hard carbon also forms from poor combustion and this is highly abrasive and scrapes the honing marks on the bores leading to bore polishing, which then leads to increased oil consumption (blue smoking) and yet further loss of pressure, since the oil film trapped in the honing marks is intended to maintain the piston seal and pressures.

Unburnt fuel then leaks past the piston rings and contaminates the lubricating oil. Poor combustion causes the injectors to become clogged with soot, causing further deterioration in combustion and black smoking.

The problem is increased further with the formation of acids in the engine oil caused by condensed water and combustion by-products which would normally boil off at higher temperatures. This acidic build-up in the lubricating oil causes slow but ultimately damaging wear to bearing surfaces.

This cycle of degradation means that the engine soon becomes irreversibly damaged and may not start at all and will no longer be able to reach full power when required.

Under-loaded running inevitably causes not only white smoke from unburnt fuel but over time will be joined by blue smoke of burnt lubricating oil leaking past the damaged piston rings, and black smoke caused by damaged injectors. This pollution is unacceptable to the authorities and neighbors.

Once glazing or carbon build up has occurred, it can only be cured by stripping down the engine and re-boring the cylinder bores, machining new honing marks and stripping, cleaning and de-coking combustion chambers, fuel injector nozzles and valves. If detected in the early stages, running an engine at maximum load to raise the internal pressures and temperatures allows the piston rings to scrape glaze off the bores and allows carbon buildup to be burnt off. However, if glazing has progressed to the stage where the piston rings have seized into their grooves, this will not have any effect."

 

So while you may have restored a big engine, Mr Gardner or Mr kelvin is spinning in his grave at you abusing his fine piece of engineering.

 

much of the reason detre of fitting bigger and bigger engines is one-up-man-ship, narrow boats navigating muddy ditches were never mean't to have such engines.

 

 

( give me a minute to get my tin hat on, and get down the bunker )

 

That will also apply to all of those modern van engines that are fitted in NB's that sit there at tickover in neutral for hours on end charging batteries

[Chubby Chaser]

I've had a Lister JP2 (whose crankshaft snapped) and Gardner 2LW restored by Walshes. No comparison. Get the Gardner.

[Athy]

Get the Gardner.

I did, and from Walsh's too. But in what ways does the JP fall short of the Gardner?

[LEO]

I did, and from Walsh's too. But in what ways does the JP fall short of the Gardner?

 

hi A,

 

Lacks the engineering inovation and quality that a Gardner has, both were good (in their day) but the Gardner had the edge.

 

It is posible to snap the crankshaft on a Gardner by mounting the gearbox on the wrong end.

 

Listers had a good range of engines - I spent ages shovelling sand and gravel in a cement mixer driven by a Lister 'D' in 1963/4.

 

L.

[Batavia]

Southern GU near Berko.

 

Leo.

And just down the road from Leo you could normally see a Bolinder 1052 and an 1113.

 

Chris G

 

 

[rjasmith]

Actually I don't think Mr Kelvin (Walter Bergius) would mind at all

 

The K series engine was designed to be operated at low load, low speed and low temperature for long periods of time.

 

That is why they do work in NB's

 

On the same theme - I once asked Seaward Engineering's Andy Bruce the question about low power running for long periods on Kelvins vis a vis bore glazing.

 

His answer (I won't attempt the splendid Glaswegian) - "These engines were designed to run all day in a Herring Ring Netter just idling in gear to keep the nets open with the boat drifting".

 

Obviously it's also good to be able to open it up a bit from time to time and I should be able to do that on the southern big rivers where our boat will mostly be based.

 

I've also had the pleasure of meeting George Bergius (Walter's son) once at a Kelvin rally. He didn't have a problem with fitting these engines in a few of today's canal boats and was rather pleased that they were enjoying a small renaissance from their dying use in fishing boats.

 

Richard

[Proper Job]

hi A,

 

Lacks the engineering inovation and quality that a Gardner has, both were good (in their day) but the Gardner had the edge.

 

It is posible to snap the crankshaft on a Gardner by mounting the gearbox on the wrong end.

 

Listers had a good range of engines - I spent ages shovelling sand and gravel in a cement mixer driven by a Lister 'D' in 1963/4.

 

L.

JP2's were prone to breaking crankshafts because there is no main bearing between the two cylinders. JP3's, 4's & 6's have main bearings between the cyclinders and are therefore stronger.

 

Gardners always configured their engines: engine, flywheel, gearbox.

 

Marine JP's were: flywheel, engine, gearbox. If anything in stopped the prop dead, The flywheel tried to keep going and the weakest thing was often the crank (which was sat beteen the two).

 

When JP's were used as 'industrial' engines, they were usually configured: engine, flywheel, output.

[Chubby Chaser]

Gardner is quieter and smoother than JP2 and has less inertia so there is less time lag. I find the boat goes better with the Gardner as well. Only downside I have found is that the Blackstone gearbox is good if you want to unwind something from the prop. Put on the decompressors and get someone to wind the starting handle and it's easier to clear the prop. My engine room does look rather odd, though. Day tank with Lister logo and Gardner engine. That confuses people. Walshes are very good people to deal with.

[MoominPapa]

Marine JP's were: flywheel, engine, gearbox. If anything in stopped the prop dead, The flywheel tried to keep going and the weakest thing was often the crank (which was sat beteen the two).

 

When JP's were used as 'industrial' engines, they were usually configured: engine, flywheel, output.

Ah, that may explain why the smaller FRs (1,2,and 3) are flywheel, engine, gearbox but the larger 4 and 6 cylinder engines with longer cranks are engine, flywheel, gearbox.

 

MP.

[Timleech]

Ah, that may explain why the smaller FRs (1,2,and 3) are flywheel, engine, gearbox but the larger 4 and 6 cylinder engines with longer cranks are engine, flywheel, gearbox.

 

MP.

 

The same goes for JPs etc.

I think it also applies to the H range, never dealt with one bigger than a 3 so can't say with 100% certainty.

 

Tim

[LEO]

JP2's were prone to breaking crankshafts because there is no main bearing between the two cylinders. JP3's, 4's & 6's have main bearings between the cyclinders and are therefore stronger.

 

Gardners always configured their engines: engine, flywheel, gearbox.

 

Marine JP's were: flywheel, engine, gearbox. If anything in stopped the prop dead, The flywheel tried to keep going and the weakest thing was often the crank (which was sat beteen the two).

 

When JP's were used as 'industrial' engines, they were usually configured: engine, flywheel, output.

 

Agreed, but some nb's have them turned them round - flywheel, engine, gearbox,

 

M.

 

And just down the road from Leo you could normally see a Bolinder 1052 and an 1113.

 

Chris G

 

Cheers Chris,

 

Shame we can't all get together and have a 'crank up', would be quite impressive and couple this with a banter...mmmm! idea for next year?.

[Proper Job]

Agreed, but some nb's have them turned them round - flywheel, engine, gearbox,

 

I wonder how long it will be before one of them breaks a crank then?

 

By far, the safest configuration for an engine is: engine, flywheel, load