Brass Chimney Chain Links

[Laurence Hogg]

Hi all

 

This is a long shot.....Resolute's chimney chain is a set of 7 "double" links, as shown in the earlier posts (that's where the d ring is fixed to the hook by a wrapped srong brass strap. 2 od my links have lettering stamped into them. One says " T R & sons" and the other, stamped around the hook, presumably before bending, reads AG20 JB 7/50. Can any forum members enlighten me as to meaning for either of them? I did enquire of the Imperial War Museum several years ago but I'm still waiting for a reply!

 

While typing, does anyone have accurate information on the dates of production of both types of clip, the double and more common single? (The single has the D ring attached directly to the hook). One theory I've met with is that the more ornate doubles were WW1 and the simpler single WW2 altho' I've yet to see pictures of WW1 bags. Many of the bags I've cut clips from are dated 1941 and are singles.

 

Sorry to be an anorak, I'm waiting for paint to dry so thought I'd ask the question. Hope someone can help.

 

Cheers

 

Dave

 

AG20 is a type of brass (bronze) with a minor silver content. The silver improves the ductile nature of the metal.

[ChimneyChain]

Some of my double link ones have A.R.S 41 stamped on them. Possibly air raid services.

 

Darren

Edited October 24, 2012 by ChimneyChain

[antarmike]

Some of my double link ones have A.R.S 41 stamped on them. Possibly air raid services.

 

Darren

The service in charge of the Air raid wardens was the ARP (Air Raid Precautions) Wardens equipment would I suggest have been marked ARP not ARS. ARS may however be the manufacturing company. Personally I have never heard of "Air raid services"

In 1941 ARP was absorbed into "Civil Defence Service" although the initials ARP continued to be used.

Edited October 24, 2012 by antarmike

[ChimneyChain]

Well a quick google search reveals that A.R.S 41 stands for

Arsemal factory in Tallinn. Apparently they were a mix of British and soviet gas masks. According to the advert they were extremely rare. Another search class them as "air refuelling services" so not quite sure.

 

Darren

[antarmike]

clicky to Tallin gasmask

 

Hi all

 

This is a long shot.....Resolute's chimney chain is a set of 7 "double" links, as shown in the earlier posts (that's where the d ring is fixed to the hook by a wrapped srong brass strap. 2 od my links have lettering stamped into them. One says " T R & sons" and the other, stamped around the hook, presumably before bending, reads AG20 JB 7/50. Can any forum members enlighten me as to meaning for either of them? I did enquire of the Imperial War Museum several years ago but I'm still waiting for a reply!

 

While typing, does anyone have accurate information on the dates of production of both types of clip, the double and more common single? (The single has the D ring attached directly to the hook). One theory I've met with is that the more ornate doubles were WW1 and the simpler single WW2 altho' I've yet to see pictures of WW1 bags. Many of the bags I've cut clips from are dated 1941 and are singles.

 

Sorry to be an anorak, I'm waiting for paint to dry so thought I'd ask the question. Hope someone can help.

 

Cheers

 

Dave

 

JB could be manufacturer and 7/50 could be month and year of production.....The threat of gas attack continued into the cold war......

[antarmike]

AG20 is a type of brass (bronze) with a minor silver content. The silver improves the ductile nature of the metal.

 

Brass is different from bronze. Brass is an alloy containing almost exclusively Copper and Zinc in varying proportions but occasionally having small quantities (typically up to 3% but never more than 10%) of other elements to modify its properties.

 

Bronze is a Copper Tin alloy (Although other metals can replace Tin to form specific bronzes).

 

Ag20 is neither of these.

 

Ag20 has not got a minor Silver content but a whopping 20%. (and although the majority of this alloy is Copper and Zinc, the very high proportion of the alloy being another element means that it is not classed as a brass, it is technically a Silver alloy.)

 

Ag20 is a Silver based brazing alloy. It is intended to join metals together in a "Silver soldering, Silver brazing or Hard Soldering" type application. It is not an alloy that would be used for producing clips for gas mask cases, nor for making any component of any kind. Its only use is to form joints between other metal components.

 

The Silver is not in the alloy to improve ductility but is there because it enhances capillary flow, improves corrosion resistance of less-noble alloys (but unfortunately it worsens corrosion resistance of gold and palladium), it wets copper and it reduces the melting point of many brazing alloys. (properties that make it suitable for a Brazing filler)

 

The high Silver content makes it very expensive and totally unlikely to be used in the mass produced clips on gas mask cases. It is not supplied in sheet or strip form suitable for stamping out parts.

 

Whatever AG20 stands for it does not stand for the alloy Ag20 or identify this as the material used in the manufacture of the clips!

 

It is also worth pointing out that the alloy I talk about is Ag20 not AG 20 so unless the post that first mentioned AG20 has used a capital "G" by mistake the Alloy name does not even match the stamping on the clip. The chemical symbol for Silver is Ag.

 

Having said what it doesn't stand for, I must confess I have no suggestion what AG20 does stand for.

Edited November 5, 2012 by antarmike

[Laurence Hogg]

Brass is a bronze, having worked with foundries here in the Black Country no one would agree with your statement.

A lot of original canal boat "brass" is actually LG2/LG4 bronze in reality as it came from chandlers supplying the marine offshore trade principally ie Simpson Lawrence.

As for the AG20 you talk about which is used in brazing the silver, (AG) content is 2% with Phoshorous 1% and 97% copper.

[antarmike]

Brass is a bronze, having worked with foundries here in the Black Country no one would agree with your statement.

A lot of original canal boat "brass" is actually LG2/LG4 bronze in reality as it came from chandlers supplying the marine offshore trade principally ie Simpson Lawrence.

As for the AG20 you talk about which is used in brazing the silver, (AG) content is 2% with Phoshorous 1% and 97% copper.

If you had clicked my clickey in the previous post Ag20 you would have seen that the silver content according to the data sheet is 20% (by weight). (Silver 20% Copper 44% Zinc 36% Silicon 0.15%) Other sources have Ag20/AG20 listed as 40% Silver. 40% Silver content

 

As a lifelong engineer (fifteen years of which teaching Engineering in colleges of further education) I maintain Brass is a Copper Zinc Alloy and Bronze is a Copper Tin Alloy. The only crossover regarded as being either a Brass or a Bronze is Gunmetal. (Gunmetal grade LG2 is referred to as Red Brass in USA, it contain equal 5% of Tin and 5% Zinc, so it can be argued to be either a Brass or a Bronze or both!)

 

the Gospel according to Wiki part1

the Gospel according to wiki part2 where see in particular "Commercial bronze (90% copper and 10% zinc) and architectural bronze (57% copper, 3% lead, 40% zinc) are more properly regarded as brass alloys because they contain zinc as the main alloying ingredient. They are commonly used in architectural applications"

 

I guess you get your composition from here AG20 Which refers to an alloy AG20 Not Ag20 but it contains No Zinc and No Tin so it is neither a Brass or a Bronze. Clearly this AG20 is not a suitable material to make clips from, and its colour would be close to Copper Red not a brassy yellow.

 

Whatever AG20 means on the clip it cannot be the alloy it is made from.

Edited November 5, 2012 by antarmike

[Laurence Hogg]

Well we must all know F--k all in the Black Country, LG2/4 are gunmetal bronze btw, our windlasses were made from them.

And as for the brass buckles what sort of brass or bronze are they? those are hot brass stamped and rolled, the firm that made them still exists and could make new ones on the tooling, but they are not common brass as in "Horsebrasses" etc where the content is governed by what scrap the foundryman throws in the pot!

Edited November 5, 2012 by Laurence Hogg

[antarmike]

Not a case of "knowing F**k all" but I suspect a case of tradesmen being imprecise with technical terminology.

 

(We all do it, most welders talk of MIG welding when they mean MAG welding MIG welding uses an inert gas (Argon or Helium) but most welders use an Active gas such as Argoshield Universal that is a three component mixture of 16% carbon dioxide and 2.75% oxygen in argon. The addition of carbon dioxide creates a more fluid weld pool. The addition of oxygen reduces the surface tension, which decreases the droplet size and increases the rate of detachment. It is an Active mixture not inert. It is therefore not MIG welding. The fact I call it MIG welding is that is what my customers know it as, and even though I know I am using incorrect terminology, I can't be arsed to explain this to them....) The Black Country Founders probably do know the difference between Brass and Bronze, they just don't think the folks they are talking to know their Brasses from Bronzes though, so they keep it simple....

 

I've never seen a brass buckle made of Bronze.

 

Tin is more expensive than Zinc, and is only alloyed with Copper in the place of Zinc in Bronzes because it makes Bronze stronger than Brass. Brass (copper Zinc) is used for most decorative items , low strength items and buckles.

 

Bronze (Copper Tin) is used for most higher strength copper alloy engineering components.

Edited November 5, 2012 by antarmike

[Laurence Hogg]

 

I've never seen a brass buckle made of Bronze.

 

Bronze (Copper Tin) is used for most higher strength copper alloy engineering components.

 

Bronze, in metallurgy, alloy of copper, tin, zinc, phosphorus, and sometimes small amounts of other elements. Bronzes are harder than brass (A yellowish alloy of copper and zinc, sometimes including small amounts of other metals, but usually 67 percent copper and 33 percent zinc.), alloy having copper (55%–90%) and zinc (10%–45%) as its essential components. The properties of brass vary with the proportion of copper and zinc and with the addition of small amounts of other elements, such as aluminum, lead, tin, or nickel.

Most are produced by melting the copper and adding the desired amounts of tin, zinc, and other substances. The properties of the alloy depend on the proportions of its components. Aluminum bronze has high strength and resists corrosion; it is used for bearings, valve seats, and machine parts. Leaded bronze, containing from 10% to 29% lead, is cast into heavy–duty bushings and bearings. Silicon bronze is used for telegraph wires and chemical containers. Phosphor bronze is used for springs. Bronze is used for coins, medals, steam fittings, and gunmetal, a bronze, an alloy of copper, tin, and a small amount of zinc. Although originally used extensively for making guns (from which it received its name), it has been superseded by steel, and it is now chiefly employed in casting machine parts.

and was formerly employed for cannon. Because of its particularly sonorous quality, bell metal, containing from 20% to 24% tin, is used for casting bells. Bronze has long been used in art, e.g., for castings, engravings, and forgings.

 

These buckles are very likely "hot brass stampings" (common terminolgy irrespective of the metal) with the both ends forged over.

Edited November 5, 2012 by Laurence Hogg

[Timleech]

If you had clicked my clickey in the previous post Ag20 you would have seen that the silver content according to the data sheet is 20% (by weight). (Silver 20% Copper 44% Zinc 36% Silicon 0.15%) Other sources have it listed as 40% Silver. 40%

 

As a lifelong engineer (fifteen years of which teaching Engineering in colleges of further education) I maintain Brass is a Copper Zinc Alloy and Bronze is a Copper Tin Alloy. The only crossover regarded as being either a Brass or a Bronze is Gunmetal. (Gunmetal is referred to as Red Brass in USA, it contain equal 5% of Tin and 5% Zinc, so it can be argued to be either a Brass or a Bronze or both!)

 

the Gospel according to Wiki part1

the Gospel according to wiki part2

 

I guess you get your composition from here AG20 Which refers to an alloy AG20 Not Ag20 but it contains No Zinc and No Tin so it is neither a Brass or a Bronze. Clearly this AG20 is not a suitable material to make clips from, and its colour would be close to Copper Red not a brassy yellow.

 

Whatever AG20 means on the clip it cannot be the alloy it is made from.

 

Don't forget that Manganese Bronze is also really a brass

 

Tim

[Ray T]

Don't forget that Manganese Bronze is also really a brass

 

Tim

 

 

Isn't that the firm who have just gone bust with London Taxis here in Coventry?

 

Sorry a weak attempt at humour.

Edited November 5, 2012 by Ray T

[antarmike]

Don't forget that Manganese Bronze is also really a brass

 

Tim

 

This is true.....But have we reached a consensus that AG20 stamped into some of these clips does not indicate the material it is made from?

Edited November 5, 2012 by antarmike

[Laurence Hogg]

This is true.....But have we reached a consensus that AG20 stamped into some of these clips does not indicate the material it is made from?

more than likely a part number, all "Dover" stove parts carry a DVRxxx number.

 

The buckles were almost certainly the work of Stanley Bros or Mathew Harvey of Walsall. Stanley Bros still exist today casting and stamping in Queen st a few hundred yards away from the town wharf. Mathew Harvey has sadly gone.

Edited November 5, 2012 by Laurence Hogg

[Ray T]

For the anorak's amongst us. Of which I include myself.

 

A variation of gas mask bag links:

 

 

Ebay, Australia

 

http://www.ebay.co.u...984.m1423.l2649

Edited December 18, 2012 by Ray T

[dave moore]

Hi all

Ray, thanks for flagging these up. Some of my links were on straps like this when I got them. It's not too hard to bend a brass strip to make the join between the hook and the D ring, ttho' bending manually isn't as crisp as the presses that would have been used originally. Also thanks to those who speculated earlier on the numbers/letters conundrum on some of my other links. This is an anorak I'm proud to wear!!

 

Cheers

 

Dave

[Ray T]

More anorakie stuff. Which is reproduction, which is original?

 

 

 

[AMModels]

left original right repro??

[ChimneyChain]

left original right repro??

 

Yep think that's right.

 

 

Darren

[Ray T]

You are both correct.

 

The original is 1mm thinner, and approx 6.5mm shorter.

 

This example I have has a steel D ring others have brass.

Edited December 24, 2012 by Ray T

[AMModels]

For me the quality of the brasswork is noticable, the original one looks "right" with no sharp turns and some age pitting on the brass, obviously pitting caused by hard work rather than corrosion.

 

Of course I could be completely wrong as has been pointed out before hehehehe.

 

Nadolig LLawen pawb!!

 

edited for fat fingers

Edited December 24, 2012 by AMModels

[Speedwheel]

Andy off the Dove is your man for chimneys

 

Andy's PM box appears to be full. Can anyone please PM me his email or phone number.

 

Many thanks.

[PaddingtonBear]

He finds it very hard to use a phone as he is deaf from all the riveting and anyway I doubt he would like all the interference from a new fangled invention like a telephone., don't you know anyone down Fradley who could take a message to him.

[onionbargee]

what is it with you boat spotters about these links ?