emergency services location info

[Jason Day - Sheffield]

The issue of how to describe your location accurately to the emergency services is something I've been looking into recently.

 

I'm a live aboard, cruise regularly, I teach first aid and have friends in fire and rescue, ambulance and mountain rescue. I've been doing some research to give people good guidance on my boater's first aid courses.

 

North West Ambulance service used to have bridge numbers (they still do for the Bridgewater) but a computer upgrade two years ago hasn't been completed with bridge numbers for other canals in their region. Their computers can use Lat/long coordinates in decimal degrees/min/sec format, but not OS grid references.

 

East Midlands Ambulance said they would be very interested in any location data on bridge numbers I could provide.

 

The other regions haven't replied to emails, and I'm chasing them up.

 

As mentioned in other discussions on the forum, the default location system is postcodes, followed by street address, followed by landmarks. But if you have tied up at a nice spot, not far from a bridge with a road, Nicholsons may give you the bridge number, but the OS maps in there don't have the minor road names.

 

A good street atlas of the local area would give you the road name and would be a good starter, or you could use a car sat nav to show the local roads. DaveC on the forum suggested "Go first of all to Canalplan.org.uk then plan a route. Each bridge will come up underlined in blue. Click on that. Then go to towards the bottom of page and click on direction of TV Transmitter and on the resulting page the NGR of the bridge will be shown in a box towards the right hand side of the screen. Like I said, it is long winded but a system I use if I need to know just where I am."

 

Here's a suggestion: I have started listing the bridges on the Shroppie from Ellesmere port south to where we moor, and then adding OS grid references, Digital lat long (can be used by sat nav) and notes on access with roadnames and postcodes where I can find them. I'm then putting this in a table, and posting it as a pdf on my website. I can't do the whole system, so if others start to do the same thing we could put together a downloadable sheet for each part of the system. It's called crowdsourcing.

 

Before you cruise, print the sheet. When you moor up, make sure the sheet is available near the first aid kit with a mark on it as to where you have moored. When I sail we have a sticker near the radio with the exact words to be used to call mayday - it's that idea (I'm going to put a download of one of those on the site as well). If you don't go far, then you don't need this, you could probably call the ES with no problems...so how about contributing your local knowledge for the benefit of others?

 

I'm sure lots of people will look on this as making a fuss over nothing (which is the way a lot of people feel about first aid training)...until you need it. so bear with me. I'd happily include improvements to this, or if it doesn't get the support to make it work, then it won't work, but let me know.

 

OK the website is www.northern-lights-training.co.uk - I have called the page 'Bridging the Gap' - there is a link on the menu. I am developing it at the moment, so things are still a bit rough, please contact me direct if you have questions or queries. I'm going to be offline from 9th Aug to the 28th as well but will get back to you after that if you contact me.

 

Cheers, Jason.

Edited August 3, 2012 by Jason Day - Sheffield

[KenK]

Hi Jason,

 

You might find this web site useful http://gridreferencefinder.com

 

Ken

[Jason Day - Sheffield]

Thanks Ken - I've been using http://www.movable-type.co.uk/scripts/latlong-gridref.html but the one you suggest is handy for the link to the postcode finder. It's a handy tool and I'll add it in to the notes about finding the info.

 

In a general way (not related to your suggestion except my train of thought) I'm concerned about the postcode in rural areas is that the unit postcode becomes a far larger area, and therefore less precise - there's no info on accuracy as it varies. When they introduced postcodes they were for delivering post, and obviously if there isn't an address to receive post, the postcode doesn't apply. maybe on the list I could introduce some form of grading to show how accurate the postcode might be.

 

Thanks for the suggestion...I will build it in.

 

cheers, Jason

[Jason Day - Sheffield]

Just spent half an hour using the grid reference finder sugested by Ken - it's really useful and will make the project much easier to do.

[twbm]

I have some experience of populating gazetters in command and control systems. Lat/Long and OS Grid are OK if you drop on an operator who understands them, and how to input them into their system to bring up the correct location on a map. You might take the view that all operators should know this, but with the workload they have it's diffcult to make the time to train them for absolutely everthing, harder to help them retain specialist

knowledge for once in a blue moon occurences. A 'real world' reference will help, such as the road number if available, maybe distance and direction from a junction with another identifiable road or land mark.

 

Be prepared to be disappointed by the reaction you may get when sending the information to the agencies: Gazetteer maintainance used to be a full time role in some organisations, but is now often seen as one of the non critical back office functions that has been scrapped because of the cut backs.

[Arthur Brown]

The universal reference system seems to be post code heavy. Post codes are used to determine the office that takes the call especially when handled from a mobile phone or relayed (eg by Mountain Rescue Service)

[Guest]

Our Garmin Sat Nav has a great 'where am I' function...

[Arthur Brown]

My in car satnav (cheap Binatone) has a Long and Lat display of it's current position whether or not it's on a road.

 

However IMO supplying instructions from a known reference point may well produce a better response.

 

If you open microsoft autoroute then you can click on places and find postcodes with limited accuracy (a postcode is usually a block or all or part of a street or a single major postal user)

 

Instructions like park in the Dog and Duck car park, then walk North would be OK if North was obvious, BUT if it was walk 6 miles then that's not a good place as that's a 90 minute walk (they are ambulance crew not SAS medics. If you get stuck in wild country

[Chalky]

It's not just on the canals that post codes are a problem. I was out cycling a few months ago and came across a significant burst pipe. Severn Trent wanted to know which house it was outside and also the post code. They had a real problem with "its by the third lamp post after the roundabout on Coat of Arms Bridge Road and no there's not a house since it's in woodland"

[Graham Davis]

 

(a postcode is usually a block or all or part of a street or a single major postal user)

 

 

And in many rural areas a "block" can be many hundreds of hectares!!

[Black Ibis]

Forum member Heffalump is an emergency service call centre operator - so, if it's him on the phone, you've more chance with getting bridge numbers understood!

[Jason Day - Sheffield]

Hi all - thanks for the responses - all useful.

 

As usual I've not communicated what I thought I was saying! The road and postcode are the main thrust of bridging the gap, followed by landmarks, followed by the grid ref and lat long (if we can .

 

I realised this was the misapprehension reading the digest this morning...you're all correct in saying that the more technical locational methods depend on operator ability. I've sat next to ambulance despatchers taking calls and I've discussed this with fire engine crews, some of whom know grid references some don't. I've even been involved in a mountain rescue callout when the team didn't have the correct map on board...

 

So the aim of the project is to bridge the gap between the boater who knows they are on the shroppie near bridge 115, and the operator who needs a postcode or street address. If we collectively provide the link...115 = Golden Nook moorings, Long Lane, Hargrave, CH3 9NU...then the ambulance crew has a head start.

 

Also - I'm not suggesting that we give this info to the ambulance trusts etc (that was what EMAS said to me)...they will have their own implementation plans. I'm thinking about my 70 y.o. father having a list of locations for the Llngollen on board if he takes the boat out (as I want the boat back!).

 

I've written what I hope are clearer notes on the website - would you have a look and let me knwo what you think?

 

cheers all

 

Jas

[Leo No2]

If you have a look at Bing (used to be Multimap) (Link to Bing Maps) and input a post code it also gives the Lat Long (I think). e.g. Byfleet Boat Club is KT14 6LE so if you input KT14 6LE into Bing it returns you the map and shows the following information. West Byfleet, England KT14 6LE 51.340588 -0.486961 which I believe means (in rounded figures) 51.34 degrees North and 0.487 degrees West. Whereas my home town of Nelson, New Zealand returns Nelson -41.246132 173.389374 (41.25 degrees South and 173.39 degrees East).

 

It seems Google Maps doesn't do that.

 

Does that assist in any way I wonder?

 

Spelling edited.

Edited August 4, 2012 by Leo No2

[MartinClark]

North West Ambulance service used to have bridge numbers (they still do for the Bridgewater)

 

Mike Webb of the Bridgewater Canal Company told me a couple of months ago that they do not number their bridges and that they have historically had names instead. This means that any bridge numbers shown in guides are unofficial numbers with the potential for possible confusion. This also means that there are no bridge number plates on the bridges themselves so, unless they had a guide that showed numbers, a person on the canal phoning for help would not know what the supposed bridge number is.

[adam1uk]

It seems Google Maps doesn't do that.

 

You can right click on any point on Google maps, select What's Here, and it'll show you long and lat co-ordinates.

[Leo No2]

You can right click on any point on Google maps, select What's Here, and it'll show you long and lat co-ordinates.

 

Well, thank you Adam, a day is wasted if you don't learn something. Thank you.

[Morat]

On Android you can use "send my location" (or a host of others) as long as you have some sort of phone signal. It sends a shortcut to the google map of your location by SMS or email. Clearly this is only a partial solution because it won't work in non-signal areas but it's very quick and clear where it works.

 

Google Play link to app

Edited August 5, 2012 by Morat

[Leo No2]

On Android you can use "send my location" (or a host of others) as long as you have some sort of phone signal. It sends a shortcut to the google map of your location by SMS or email. Clearly this is only a partial solution because it won't work in non-signal areas but it's very quick and clear where it works.

 

Google Play link to app

 

Great - there's also an iPhone App (£0:69p of course with Apple) here. There's also a free version I believe.

[nb Innisfree]

Great - there's also an iPhone App (£0:69p of course with Apple) here. There's also a free version I believe.

 

Just installed this on my iphone but problem is if you override your position manually with drag and drop it reverts to the (wrong) postcode instead of lat and long reference which can result, in my example anyway, in the location being half a mile away. So to send your location don't touch the location pin and it will send your position as lat and long

[Jason Day - Sheffield]

Intering stuff, I was aware of the Google maps lat long, and that was what I was using until Grid reference finder (http://gridreferencefinder.com

) was suggested by Ken - it's a better tool for the job.

 

Agreed there are a number of apps etc which you could access to locate yourselves on teh spot, but I think the important thing here is that you wouldn't want to be doing this while trying to contact the emergency services. Having a list ahead of time, or always writing up your emergency plan when you moor up would be the way to go.

 

Re the Bridgewater:- the conversation I had while visiting NWAS emergency room for a chat about his was as follows:

 

do you have the bridge numbers?

 

- we used to, but not since the upgrade 2 years ago, they haven't been loaded. We do have them for the Bridgewater.

 

...which I took to mean numbers, but they may have understood as bridge names. Last time I came down the Bridgewater was two years ago, and I was on my honeymoon with mrs.Day and a half case of bubbly - I wasn;t looking at the numbers :-)

 

As regards the text messaging - there is a system for text messaging the emergency services. but you have to register ahead of time with them, there are details on http://www.emergencysms.org.uk/ website.

 

Finally - be careful about rounding lat long coordinates...eachg time you lose numbers the point (or area for grid refs) described gets less accurate. I've put oem notes about this on the website.

 

Anyone interested in collecting information for their parts of the network??

 

cheers Jason

[mrsmelly]

The issue of how to describe your location accurately to the emergency services is something I've been looking into recently.

 

I'm a live aboard, cruise regularly, I teach first aid and have friends in fire and rescue, ambulance and mountain rescue. I've been doing some research to give people good guidance on my boater's first aid courses.

 

North West Ambulance service used to have bridge numbers (they still do for the Bridgewater) but a computer upgrade two years ago hasn't been completed with bridge numbers for other canals in their region. Their computers can use Lat/long coordinates in decimal degrees/min/sec format, but not OS grid references.

 

East Midlands Ambulance said they would be very interested in any location data on bridge numbers I could provide.

 

The other regions haven't replied to emails, and I'm chasing them up.

 

As mentioned in other discussions on the forum, the default location system is postcodes, followed by street address, followed by landmarks. But if you have tied up at a nice spot, not far from a bridge with a road, Nicholsons may give you the bridge number, but the OS maps in there don't have the minor road names.

 

A good street atlas of the local area would give you the road name and would be a good starter, or you could use a car sat nav to show the local roads. DaveC on the forum suggested "Go first of all to Canalplan.org.uk then plan a route. Each bridge will come up underlined in blue. Click on that. Then go to towards the bottom of page and click on direction of TV Transmitter and on the resulting page the NGR of the bridge will be shown in a box towards the right hand side of the screen. Like I said, it is long winded but a system I use if I need to know just where I am."

 

Here's a suggestion: I have started listing the bridges on the Shroppie from Ellesmere port south to where we moor, and then adding OS grid references, Digital lat long (can be used by sat nav) and notes on access with roadnames and postcodes where I can find them. I'm then putting this in a table, and posting it as a pdf on my website. I can't do the whole system, so if others start to do the same thing we could put together a downloadable sheet for each part of the system. It's called crowdsourcing.

 

Before you cruise, print the sheet. When you moor up, make sure the sheet is available near the first aid kit with a mark on it as to where you have moored. When I sail we have a sticker near the radio with the exact words to be used to call mayday - it's that idea (I'm going to put a download of one of those on the site as well). If you don't go far, then you don't need this, you could probably call the ES with no problems...so how about contributing your local knowledge for the benefit of others?

 

I'm sure lots of people will look on this as making a fuss over nothing (which is the way a lot of people feel about first aid training)...until you need it. so bear with me. I'd happily include improvements to this, or if it doesn't get the support to make it work, then it won't work, but let me know.

 

OK the website is www.northern-lights-training.co.uk - I have called the page 'Bridging the Gap' - there is a link on the menu. I am developing it at the moment, so things are still a bit rough, please contact me direct if you have questions or queries. I'm going to be offline from 9th Aug to the 28th as well but will get back to you after that if you contact me.

 

Cheers, Jason.

 

When foning emergency services from a mobile fone just dial 112 not 999 the 112 system pinpoints your location from your fone signal and tells operator of your location.

 

Tim

[DaveC]

When foning emergency services from a mobile fone just dial 112 not 999 the 112 system pinpoints your location from your fone signal and tells operator of your location.

 

Tim

 

Where is the conclusive evidence of this please - because the local police have said to phone 999.

 

Dave

[mrsmelly]

Where is the conclusive evidence of this please - because the local police have said to phone 999.

 

Dave

 

Hi Dave

 

I recently went on an mca approved sea survival course and they said that was the one to use. It has long been an emergency number, also 911 works in the uk.

 

Tim

[nb Innisfree]

When foning emergency services from a mobile fone just dial 112 not 999 the 112 system pinpoints your location from your fone signal and tells operator of your location.

 

Tim

 

Is this done by triangulation or gps?

[mrsmelly]

Is this done by triangulation or gps?

 

i

 

Tey said it was triangulation, wel beyond me

 

Tim