Boat sunk at Redhill

[Teadaemon]

Oh I do apologise. I thought you had claimed to be qualified as a surveyor. That is the only comment I have made about your knowledge or qualifications. if I have got this wrong I do apologise unreservedly. I was simply going on information you had provided. I made no attempt at verifying this, my mistake.

 

 

As I have no legal interest in this case I have no interest in proving what would be self-evident to anyone; that if you entered Redhill Marina without permission and attempted to salve the sunken boat in the OP you would be at the very least liable to action under the laws of trespass and entitled to no salvage fee whatsoever.

 

Yes, if you enter a private marina without permission and attempt to salvage a sunken boat you would be liable to action for trespass. Such action would have no effect on any claim for salvage that you might make, which would be judged on it's own merits by an admiralty court if necessary.

 

I am qualified and practise as a surveyor (not a lawyer, incidentally). Claiming that I an 'spouting scurrilous nonsense' (to provide one example) could well be defamatory, and I would caution you to consider your words more carefully in future.

[Timleech]

Yes, if you enter a private marina without permission and attempt to salvage a sunken boat you would be liable to action for trespass. Such action would have no effect on any claim for salvage that you might make, which would be judged on it's own merits by an admiralty court if necessary.

 

I am qualified and practise as a surveyor (not a lawyer, incidentally). Claiming that I an 'spouting scurrilous nonsense' (to provide one example) could well be defamatory, and I would caution you to consider your words more carefully in future.

 

Oh dear.

[Chertsey]

Knowing nothing about the law on this matter I am far more inclined to believe Teadaemon because he is putting his argument far more reasonably and lucidly.

[Midnight Rider]

Point of order ---- boat was on BW moorings, not on Redhill Marina property.

[Timleech]

Knowing nothing about the law on this matter I am far more inclined to believe Teadaemon because he is putting his argument far more reasonably and lucidly.

 

I'm reasonably sure that maritime law does not apply on most of our inland waterways, though IANAL either.

I'm not sure that hints of legal action for defamation count as reasonable and lucid in this context.

 

Tim

[carlt]

I believe, in this instance, everybody is a bit correct and everyone is a little bit wrong.

 

On the canals the BW Acts and Byelaws must trump the Merchant Shipping Act 1995 otherwise you can be pretty sure British Waterways would use that legislation to clear away abandoned boats, rather than the extremely tricky section 8 process.

 

I know for a fact that salvage rights apply on the Broads because the BA and marinas take advantage of the process to get rid of sunken boats (the yard owner where I took my boat was waiting for the phone call to go and recover it, as soon as it had sunk, but I stepped in and parted with money for it first).

 

I am unsure of the situation on BW controlled tidal waters and connected rivers and it would make an interesting discussion, if we can all stop willy waving.

[fuzzyduck]

I'm sure some poor sod's cruiser is of limited interest to the reciever of wrecks but this is what they have to say on the subject.

 

http://www.dft.gov.uk/mca/mcga07-home/emergencyresponse/mcga-receiverofwreck/mcga-dops_row_salvage.htm

 

Here's hoping the boat can be recovered, and put back into service.

[Athy]

This is an invigorating and entertaining discussion/ frank exchange of views, but may we have a little bit of notice next time? I have just looked in my kitchen cupboards and found that I have run out of popcorn.

[Timleech]

I'm sure some poor sod's cruiser is of limited interest to the reciever of wrecks but this is what they have to say on the subject.

 

http://www.dft.gov.uk/mca/mcga07-home/emergencyresponse/mcga-receiverofwreck/mcga-dops_row_salvage.htm

 

Here's hoping the boat can be recovered, and put back into service.

 

It says nothing about its scope for inland waters.

 

This does, though, and I quote from it:-

 

"

However, when introducing the Convention into domestic law the UK government adopted an alternative approach. Schedule 11 Part II of the Merchant Shipping Act 1995 states:

 

 

 

2(1) The provisions of the Convention do not apply –

 

(a) to a salvage operation which takes place in inland waters of the United Kingdom and in which all the vessels involved are of inland navigation; and

 

(b ) to a salvage operation which takes place in inland waters of the United Kingdom and in which no vessel is involved

 

2(2) In this paragraph ‘inland waters’ does not include any waters within the ebb and flow of the tide at ordinary spring tides, or the waters of any dock which is directly or (by means of one or more other docks) indirectly connected with such waters’

"

 

Tim

 

The last bit seems relevant to why the Broads may be covered but the general inland waterways may not.

It seems from a superficial reading that the rules might be different if it's a genuinely seagoing boat that's involved.

[carlt]

I have just looked in my kitchen cupboards and found that I have run out of popcorn.

Some jokes just never get old.

[The Lockie]

Mmm a Pink Troll, didn't they used to give them away at fairgrounds!!

[Roxy]

I went down to Redhill again yesterday and the boat is still there, now leaking out Diesel and oil. I have rung EA and was suprised that no one else had reported it. There sending and EA officer down to have a look. I supposed slighty one good thing is that it's sat on the bottom of a river and not on a canal.

 

Water levels have dropped and you can now see more of the boat, its a Creighton cruiser and is stuck solid to the bottom, going to be difficult and I expect costly to get the thing lifted.

 

[carlt]

 

Water levels have dropped and you can now see more of the boat, its a Creighton cruiser and is stuck solid to the bottom, going to be difficult and I expect costly to get the thing lifted.

 

Actually refloating it won't be a problem but the interior will be ruined so that's where the real work starts.

 

It is a shame but a Creighton is definitely worth saving.

[Ange]

There but for the grace etc

 

We made the unwise decision of leaving our boat at Redhill for a week - thankfully we had Roxy there to check our ropes, and the river wasn't as angry as it is now.

 

It's a harsh punishment for a new boat owner's lack of knowledge

[Roxy]

Actually refloating it won't be a problem but the interior will be ruined so that's where the real work starts.

 

It is a shame but a Creighton is definitely worth saving.

 

Carl how will they refloat/lift it do you think?

 

There but for the grace etc

 

We made the unwise decision of leaving our boat at Redhill for a week - thankfully we had Roxy there to check our ropes, and the river wasn't as angry as it is now.

 

It's a harsh punishment for a new boat owner's lack of knowledge

 

It is Ange, I spoke to Steve yesterday who is now in charge of the boat sales at Redhill and he said the guy who owns it is insured and that the boat did need alot of working doing on it. He said the owner is just going to claim off his insurance but surely they could argue and say that he left the boat unattended and on a river that was liable to flood or was in flood?

 

I'm not sure where he would stand on that.......

[carlt]

Carl how will they refloat/lift it do you think?

If it's got an inboard engine then I'd drop the windscreen and feed the pump hoses through there and it should come up.

 

If it's got an outboard then I'd wait for the river levels to drop before pumping it out.

[Arthur Brown]

My lifting technique relies on getting lots of drums of air inside it and under it. Sometimes it reduces the pumping needed.

[carlt]

My lifting technique relies on getting lots of drums of air inside it and under it. Sometimes it reduces the pumping needed.

Pumps don't do damage. Putting drums inside could destroy the boat's superstructure putting strops underneath it could destroy the hull.

 

Pumping is the least aggressive way to refloat a boat and a couple of 3" centrifugals would lift that no problem.

[Arthur Brown]

Well my technique worked for me with no damage when I was a commercial diver. 280918761211 I had one of these then (ebay til it fades)

[bizzard]

Two or three ways of raising it i'd say.

Damming it around with some boards.Then something like a 2000 gpm pump. The fire brigade would do this at a cost or possibly at minimal cost for practice,proceeds towards their benevalant fund.

If there's an alongside road access a tractor could pull it up by placing weighted rope slings under and around bow and stern then around a spreader plank bringing them together onto one cable sideways on to the tractor at a little distance, with a couple of people standing on top rocking the boat to break any mud suction and pull it up. Once the gunnels break surface a portable pump or two should complete the salvage.

But before the pumps are taken back to the hire shop find the reason why it sank.

I once raised an old wooden 50'ex Naval Pinnace like this in the Bow backwaters near Stratford East London, coach roof just visible and had a heavy Perkins engine in it with my old Landrover.

[Guest]

Is this the point at which we vote for which CWDF member we would entrust the re-float of our sunken boat to...??

[carlt]

Well my technique worked for me with no damage when I was a commercial diver. 280918761211 I had one of these then (ebay til it fades)

Offshore, by any chance?

 

Inland you just don't have the space to faff about with drums and bags.

 

Seal the holes and use the biggest pump you can find.

 

If that doesn't work seal some more holes and use two pumps.

 

I've refloated around 50 boats so far, most old wooden ones full of holes.

 

The Cov Climaxes are a great pump if you're not too far from a road but they're a bugger to get across a soggy field.

 

I'd rather have a couple of Honda/Wacker 3" trash pumps any day.

 

Lighter, fit in a wheelbarrow and shift as much water.

 

A bucket is worth a 1" pump too.

[bizzard]

As Carl says pumps are the best and easiest way but all cabin and hull openings,windows ect will need closing off leaving say one open for the pumps suction hose, but unless a very powerful pump is employed building a dam around the cockpit ect with ply boards would be an almost certainty. Hauling a boat up with strops shouldn't harm a boat unless of course its old perhaps rotten and weakened as any submerged object weighs a lot less submerged than out of the water, This boat i think is GRP so wouldn't be a problem, after all all types of boats are being slung about on cranes all the time.

[FrigateCaptain]

Is this the point at which we vote for which CWDF member we would entrust the re-float of our sunken boat to...??

 

 

Carl

 

He's funny, full of knowledge and would trust him with any boat of mine

[carlt]

As Carl says pumps are the best and easiest way but all cabin and hull openings,windows ect will need closing off leaving say one open for the pumps suction hose, but unless a very powerful pump is employed building a dam around the cockpit ect with ply boards would be an almost certainty. Hauling a boat up with strops shouldn't harm a boat unless of course its old perhaps rotten and weakened as any submerged object weighs a lot less submerged than out of the water, This boat i think is GRP so wouldn't be a problem, after all all types of boats are being slung about on cranes all the time.

I'd wrap builder's plastic around the cockpit, personally.

 

Easier to use than ply and cheaper.

 

Even easier still with wooden boats as you can use a staple gun to stop it flapping about until you get some negative pressure to suck it into the holes.