A question about Steel

[MaryP]

Pre 1945 steel is the best. Don't go for post 1945 steel if you can help it.

 

I was told by an old (in his 80's) 'born, lived, worked on a boat' guy that the reason pre war steel lasts longer is due to lower radioactivity levels when it was manufactured. He said that was why so many Springers still survive, as the steel they were made from was pre war.

 

Being a Springer owner, I took it all in - but he may have a point?

[Yamanx]

I work in the steel industry.

 

You can ask for the 3.1.1 test certs for any steel you buy, this will give you the chemical makeup of the steel as well as its source. 90% of our customers request these certs. Boat builders on the whole do not request them, but they do specify that the steel is sourced from a "Western European" source. "Western European" sourced material is considered to be of a superior quality to any other source, the test certs will back this up in the main.

[system 4-50]

Old steel is the best? As used in the Titanic?

[Laurie Booth]

I was told by an old (in his 80's) 'born, lived, worked on a boat' guy that the reason pre war steel lasts longer is due to lower radioactivity levels when it was manufactured. He said that was why so many Springers still survive, as the steel they were made from was pre war.

 

Being a Springer owner, I took it all in - but he may have a point?

This is true. Hence pre 1945 is very good as this was before the first Atomic test. It was the magnetic shock wave that caused the damage not radioactivity.

[system 4-50]

This is true. Hence pre 1945 is very good as this was before the first Atomic test. It was the magnetic shock wave that caused the damage not radioactivity.

[jelunga]

Old steel is the best? As used in the Titanic?

It is generally accepted that the steel used on the Tit and Nic was inferior and if the iceberg hadnt got it fatigue fractures will have. Not even good for the period apparently.

[Laurie Booth]

?

[RLWP]

?

 

Well, it is a pretty good joke, so some proper appreciation is appropriate

 

Richard

[Sir Nibble]

Steel produced after '45 has a level of background radiation "rolled" into it which makes it unsuitable for some applications notably the manufacture of some sensitive instruments. There is no structural effect.

[Timleech]

It is generally accepted that the steel used on the Tit and Nic was inferior and if the iceberg hadnt got it fatigue fractures will have. Not even good for the period apparently.

 

I thought it was the (iron??) rivets rather than the plating which were alleged to be of poor quality?

 

 

Tim

[Laurie Booth]

Well, it is a pretty good joke, so some proper appreciation is appropriate

 

Richard

Actually I wasn't joking.

[Giggetty]

Not sure, as to thickness to be honest, although of similar profile and no neither were galvanised

However I was just trying to state something my ol man once brought up in conversation with me, and was sharing.

Steel corrosion is promoted by local electrochemical differences in its composition. These are amplified by local ionisation from actinide inclusions resulting from atmospheric nuclear tests post-1945. (This is one reason why whole-body gamma scanners are built from steel salvaged from the Kaiser's fleet, scuttled in Scapa Flow in 1919-this has very low intrinsic radioactivity).

 

The demands of Siemens open-hearth processing for added recycled scrap also mean increased alloy content of other metallic elements and thus more alloy electrochemical differences. A friend with a Liverpool boat has mentioned an observation on drilling his bulkheads. He often strikes an area of harder steel, consistent with altered grain composition. Do Liverpool boats rust more easily?

[Roger Gunkel]

Actually I wasn't joking.

Going back to the OP and his concern about modern steel in boat building, surely modern narrow/widebeamed boats are built using thicker steel than many of the older ones. Even if the specification of the steel was lower, the main concern of a purchaser would be the boat rusting through much sooner. The extra thickness would surely compensate for any slight lowering of the quality, but more importantly, rusting will occur due to the exposure of the steel to air and water. I don't see why a boat that is built from a slightly lower spec steel will rust any quicker if it is protected from exposure by the proper application of paint and blacking plus regular maintenance of that coating. Either way, properly maintained it should outlast the owner.

 

Roger

[RLWP]

Actually I wasn't joking.

 

Then I understand your confusion

 

I'm sorry Laurie, but as Snibble says, it has no effect on the structural strength of the steel

 

As a general observation on this, I find it fascinating how these - I was going to say Old Wive's, but I guess they are Old Soldier's tales - persist.

 

"Oh yeah, in the old days they threw stuff in the pot by instinct and made better steel than all these fancy-pants scientists with their mass spectrometers, electron microscopes and laboratory testing to ensure quality control"

 

It's clearly bollocks.

 

Richard

[jelunga]

I thought it was the (iron??) rivets rather than the plating which were alleged to be of poor quality?

 

 

Tim

As usual there are conflicting stories

 

This seems to blame the rivets :-http://www.titanichistoricalsociety.org/articles/brittle-steel.asp

 

This seem to blame the steel :-

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/1997/12/971227000141.htm

 

Who knows?

Edited May 1, 2012 by jelunga

[Giggetty]

As usual there are conflicting stories

 

This seems to blame the rivets :-http://www.titanichistoricalsociety.org/articles/brittle-steel.asp

 

This seem to blame the steel :-

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/1997/12/971227000141.htm

 

Who knows?

There were excessive slag inclusions in two rivets salvaged from the wreck of the Titanic. Olympia, the sister ship built at the same time at Harland & Wolf collided with a naval vessel some time after and suffered rivet failure. So the rivets are under suspicion. However, the stricken area of Titanic's bow is buried under sediment and cannot be inspected. Case open still.

 

Do rivets fail on narrowboats? (the real ones, not the fakes).

[Keeping Up]

Do rivets fail on narrowboats? (the real ones, not the fakes).

 

I can remember when a riveted boat sank in Milton Keynes marina because several rivets snapped when the water froze

[smudge837]

Hi all.

 

With reference to op, I also remember being told around the late nineties and early noughties, when I was looking at having a shell built, not to use eastern European steel.

 

I was informed that it failed to meet western standards along with the Chinese steel flat pack hulls that were just starting to come over. If I recall correctly this was about the time you could buy Polish narrow boats fully fitted for around 20k less than UK spec boats. I wondered if it was just UK builders spreading tales as they could not compete with the price.

 

Since then a couple of years ago the MOD had a problem with a battle winning weapon, basically it kept failing when under intense use. On further investigation it was found that one single component, had the steel sourced from and eastern European mine,(we even managed to track down to which day and load it came out of the mine.) When this component was checked with the “super metal checker”, (metal not my department, I do bang stuff) we were told it had a similar consistency to an Aero bar, more bubble than metal. The blame was placed entirely on the eastern Euro supplier.

 

So my only real experience with eastern metal is yes it is inferior, if sourced on the cheap ( i.e. by a government dept). And since the mid-nineties we have been chasing cheaper and cheaper deals, and sourcing from further a far for normal people.

 

Cheers all

 

 

Smudge

[RLWP]

Which idiot failed to do the material acceptance checks when they received the steel?

 

Richard

[Timleech]

 

 

Do rivets fail on narrowboats? (the real ones, not the fakes).

 

Generally only if they're old & knackered.

Usual problem is with plates rivetted to knees, scale forming between plate & knee pushes the two apart & eventually the head falls off the rivet (which might also have been weakened by wear to the head).

 

Tim

[Laurie Booth]

Then I understand your confusion

 

I'm sorry Laurie, but as Snibble says, it has no effect on the structural strength of the steel

 

As a general observation on this, I find it fascinating how these - I was going to say Old Wive's, but I guess they are Old Soldier's tales - persist.

 

"Oh yeah, in the old days they threw stuff in the pot by instinct and made better steel than all these fancy-pants scientists with their mass spectrometers, electron microscopes and laboratory testing to ensure quality control"

 

It's clearly bollocks.

 

Richard

Snibble is talking about radiation as I am talking about the magnetic shock wave hitting the iron ore.

This is why it became so important to stop nuclear testing.

[RLWP]

Snibble is talking about radiation as I am talking about the magnetic shock wave hitting the iron ore.

This is why it became so important to stop nuclear testing.

 

Ahh, I see. Well, I'm only good at science and engineering. Pseudo-science isn't my thing

 

Would you like to borrow my tin-foil hat?

 

Richard

[Grace and Favour]

Ahh, I see. Well, I'm only good at science and engineering. Pseudo-science isn't my thing

 

Would you like to borrow my tin-foil hat?

 

Richard

 

Ooh - - does that mean you've taken delivery of the latest Kosher tin-foil hats with fung-shui approval?

[Laurie Booth]

Ahh, I see. Well, I'm only good at science and engineering. Pseudo-science isn't my thing

 

Would you like to borrow my tin-foil hat?

 

Richard

My school days were spent making bombs.

http://lawrencebooth.co.uk/atom/atom.html

[cazberry]

Ohh dear, North Wales is a totally different kettle of fish. It really is

 

meaning?