Academics And Boat Maintenance

[Athy]

Indeed. Like old plug-ugly mug says, she's built to the LBSC design for the GER 2-4-0 'Petrolea'. My engine is 3 1/2" gauge, has none of the oil firing equipment and is coal-fired. Unfortunately she hasn't run for a long time as her boiler certificate has expired.

 

 

 

Richard

I have only just caught up with this thread and was delighted to see your photos of the loco. I was equally delighted that, even before Biz posted the info, I recognised it as a Great Eastern E4 (as they were known in BR days). I think that one of them was the last 2-4-0 in service; it may have been preserved, I hope so anyway.

Don't get the London, Brighton & South Coast connection though.

 

Oh, nice to see that it has traditional speedwheel controls too.

Edited February 20, 2012 by Athy

[RLWP]

I have only just caught up with this thread and was delighted to see your photos of the loco. I was equally delighted that, even before Biz posted the info, I recognised it as a Great Eastern E4 (as they were known in BR days). I think that one of them was the last 2-4-0 in service; it may have been preserved, I hope so anyway.

Don't get the London, Brighton & South Coast connection though.

 

Well, your are right that the last E4 is preserved, and this isn't an E4

 

The E4 was built for stopping trains, these ones were built with seven foot drivers for express work

 

Richard

[Athy]

One out of 2 isn't bad, thanks for telling me, I have learned something new today.

Then what was their LNER and (if they survived that long) BR class, and what was the LBSC connection? If I remember rightly, the latter railway built 0-4-2s (like 'Gladstone') but not 2-4-0s, so it can't have been a case of building one of their existing designs for a different railway.

The sad thing is that I have looked none of this up. I wish there was room in my brain for more useful infomation.

[bizzard]

I have only just caught up with this thread and was delighted to see your photos of the loco. I was equally delighted that, even before Biz posted the info, I recognised it as a Great Eastern E4 (as they were known in BR days). I think that one of them was the last 2-4-0 in service; it may have been preserved, I hope so anyway.

Don't get the London, Brighton & South Coast connection though.

 

Oh, nice to see that it has traditional speedwheel controls too.

The only connection with the LB&SCR as far as this engine goes was its model engineer designer,who was a very very prolific model engineer and model loco designer roughly between the wars. He lived in Ashford Kent,and the engines of the Southern were really his favorites.He wrote articles and had model engine designs,drawings and ''how to'' published in the Model engineer for donkey's years.He was known as Curly but because he resided in Kent,he always wrote under the title of LBSCR.His workshop was at home in Ashford where he also had his own extensive sit astride 5'' 3 1/2'' and 2 1/2''track,where he ran all his own engines and did his testing.Their must be upwards of 50 or more of his loco scale model drawings still obtainable from proper model engineers stores, and many one off's of completely his own design.In fact he was really the instigator of proper fully functional and coal fired. ''the same as its big sister'' he would say working model loco's.

[bizzard]

The only GE 2-4-0 to survive almost to the end of steam was the solitary E4 62785 an engine of 1891 build also a J. Holden design which worked the Colchester-Mildenhall branch. I think i said William Holden in my other post,i must have been thinking of the actor. The original GE loco building workshops were at Romford before Stratford was built where i think most of these old 2-4-0's were built at Romford.

[Athy]

I suspect that, as a very small boy, I saw that engine at Cambridge; my dad used to go there to mark GCE exam papers each summer and after a while he took the family with him. I know he took me to Cambridge station to see a special train arrive, it could have been that E4 heading it.

A bit later, when I was old enough to be allowed out on my own, I used sometimes to go engine-spotting at the station. Cambridge loco shed was right be one the platforms; some of its windows were broken and, if I climbed on to a bench on the platform, I could see in. I do remember that they had some other old stagers there: Great Eastern 0-6-0s, perhaps J15s.

[bizzard]

I suspect that, as a very small boy, I saw that engine at Cambridge; my dad used to go there to mark GCE exam papers each summer and after a while he took the family with him. I know he took me to Cambridge station to see a special train arrive, it could have been that E4 heading it.

A bit later, when I was old enough to be allowed out on my own, I used sometimes to go engine-spotting at the station. Cambridge loco shed was right be one the platforms; some of its windows were broken and, if I climbed on to a bench on the platform, I could see in. I do remember that they had some other old stagers there: Great Eastern 0-6-0s, perhaps J15s.

Quite a few of those old J15's were still hauling goods trains at the end of steam,early 60's on the GE.In fact a J15 along with the E4 worked the Colchester-Mildenhall branch together.

[RLWP]

One out of 2 isn't bad, thanks for telling me, I have learned something new today.

Then what was their LNER and (if they survived that long) BR class, and what was the LBSC connection? If I remember rightly, the latter railway built 0-4-2s (like 'Gladstone') but not 2-4-0s, so it can't have been a case of building one of their existing designs for a different railway.

The sad thing is that I have looked none of this up. I wish there was room in my brain for more useful infomation.

 

The E4 was built by the GER as their class T26 with 5' 8" drivers. The last survivor is at Bressingham.

 

The T19 class seem to share a lot of parts. Incidentally, the Wikipedia link has a picture of Petrolea

 

LBSC was the nom-de-plume of Lillian 'Curly' Lawrence, a prolific and engaging writer for the Model Engineer magazine and transvestite

 

Richard

[carlt]

Right, another thread has turned into a railway geekfest.

 

I'm off to find a newbie I can bully.

[soldthehouse]

With a bit of dress-making on the side no doubt.

 

Richard

Norty but funny and.....

 

Indeed. Like old plug-ugly mug says, she's built to the LBSC design for the GER 2-4-0 'Petrolea'. My engine is 3 1/2" gauge, has none of the oil firing equipment and is coal-fired. Unfortunately she hasn't run for a long time as her boiler certificate has expired.

 

 

 

Richard

Respect!

 

Academics and impracticality are an historical phenomena Previously underpaid and excentric reclusive, now relatively highly paid less absorbed and more free time to meander into areas of mischevious interest

Edited February 20, 2012 by soldthehouse

[David Schweizer]

In terms of academia vs manual skill, each has its place but I would say that in the long term it is academia that allows our civilisation to advance, whilst those with manual skills allow the status quo to be maintained to a high standard.

 

In boating terms, the guys who built our boat demonstrated fantastic craftsmanship in terms of metalwork and woodwork. However they would not have a clue how to create an engine from scratch, never mind the electronics in the inverter nor the satellite that allows me to watch Freesat tv. Those latter items are the product of academics. But I doubt you would want the academics to build your boat!

 

Personally I got an electronics engineering degree and worked for a while as an "academic", but now work in a manual skill job in which I earn far more than I would have done if I had stayed with electronics so these days it is wrong to assume that an academic qualification is a passport to high earnings.

I belong to an organization which includes some very intelligent people within its membership, many of whom would challenge that assertion. It could be proposed that without competent people with the ability to put ideas into practice, we would all still be living in caves. It is a matter of record that most of the machinery which revolutionised agriculture was invented by Practical people not academics, similarily most of the inventions which changed the world from an Agrarian Society into an Indusrtial economy were not by academics but practical people.

 

I could probably write a thesis on the intelectual assumption that academia implies superiority over practicality, rooted in the history of the Church and it's systematic persecution of anyone outside the priesthood who sought to become literate, but that is for another day.

[soldthehouse]

Why bother with a thesis your succint explanation will suffice

 

I could probably write a thesis on the intelectual assumption that academia implies superiority over practicality, rooted in the history of the Church and it's systematic persecution of anyone outside the priesthood who sought to become literate, but that is for another day.

 

 

 

 

 

Academics and impracticality are an historical phenomena Previously underpaid and excentric reclusive, now relatively highly paid less absorbed and more free time to meander into areas of mischevious interest

Edited February 20, 2012 by soldthehouse

[carlt]

It is a matter of record that most of the machinery which revolutionised agriculture was invented by Practical people not academics, similarily most of the inventions which changed the world from an Agrarian Society into an Indusrtial economy were not by academics but practical people.

Actually I would dispute that.

 

It was those who understand academic disciplines and combine them with more practical skills....

 

We call them engineers.

[soldthehouse]

Actually I would dispute that.

 

It was those who understand academic disciplines and combine them with more practical skills....

 

We call them engineers.

AHEMMMMMMMMMMMMM

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/academic

Edited February 20, 2012 by soldthehouse

[David Schweizer]

Actually I would dispute that.

 

It was those who understand academic disciplines and combine them with more practical skills....

 

We call them engineers.

I accept that there were educated literate men such as Abraham Darby, and later Isambard Kingdom Brunel, who did apply knowledge and understanding to their work, but within the context that my observations were made, there were few, if any, 18th century engineers who had anything resembling an academic background. From my reading it would appear that a significant number of the early Agricultural and Industrial Revolution inventions were the work of blacksmiths, many of whom were illiterate.

 

Of course none of that means that they were not intelligent and capable men, but more importantly they were practical men. However to suggest that they were academics is, for me, a stretch of the imagination.

Edited February 21, 2012 by David Schweizer

[Québec]

A number of years ago I was involved in some non-technical research in what was then known as Lucas Aerospace. One of the managers told us this story: their university educated engineers, designers and computer programmers had been spending hundreds of hours trying to work out the optimum shape of the wing for a new missile. Nothing seemed to work. The manager was sitting in the pub when two 'old boys' who'd been working there since the year dot since they'd joined as apprentices, approached him: "you know this wing you've been having all this trouble with? Well, we've been thinking, and we reckon what you need is this.....". And they took out a piece of paper with a hand-drawn shape, and some figures.

 

Of course it worked!

[RLWP]

A number of years ago I was involved in some non-technical research in what was then known as Lucas Aerospace. One of the managers told us this story: their university educated engineers, designers and computer programmers had been spending hundreds of hours trying to work out the optimum shape of the wing for a new missile. Nothing seemed to work. The manager was sitting in the pub when two 'old boys' who'd been working there since the year dot since they'd joined as apprentices, approached him: "you know this wing you've been having all this trouble with? Well, we've been thinking, and we reckon what you need is this.....". And they took out a piece of paper with a hand-drawn shape, and some figures.

 

Of course it worked!

 

It is important to remember that anecdotes are based on exceptional incidents, rather than the everyday. Otherwise, they don't make a good story. The one that goes like this:

 

"Their university educated engineers, designers and computer programmers had been spending hundreds of hours trying to work out the optimum shape of the wing for a new missile. It worked perfectly."

 

just isn't interesting, is it?

 

Richard

[musicman]

Just for a few seconds I read "Seven foot drivers" and thought the men had to be 84 inches tall to qualify . . . . silly me!

[carlt]

I accept that there were educated literate men such as Abraham Darby, and later Isambard Kingdom Brunel, who did apply knowledge and understanding to their work....

I thought we were talking about academic ability, rather than academic achievement.

 

There are people on this forum who may not have progressed beyond secondary school who do just as much, if not more, thinking than those who did a degree and beyond.

 

I am reminded of a very clever man's very stupid son who once told me that "All the boat people were thick as pig shit!"

 

I pointed out to him that lack of an education did not make them unintelligent, merely uneducated. I then left him to it as he was spoiling a good party.

[RLWP]

I accept that there were educated literate men such as Abraham Darby, and later Isambard Kingdom Brunel, who did apply knowledge and understanding to their work, but within the context that my observations were made, there were few, if any, 18th century engineers who had anything resembling an academic background. From my reading it would appear that a significant number of the early Agricultural and Industrial Revolution inventions were the work of blacksmiths, many of whom were illiterate.

 

Of course none of that means that they were not intelligent and capable men, but more importantly they were practical men. However to suggest that they were academics is, for me, a stretch of the imagination.

 

Maybe I'm just a revisionist, I do think that the 'gifted amateur' view of 18th and 19th century engineers is a product of the 1960's and 1970's anti-establishment culture

 

Richard

[David Schweizer]

I thought we were talking about academic ability, rather than academic achievement.

 

There are people on this forum who may not have progressed beyond secondary school who do just as much, if not more, thinking than those who did a degree and beyond.

 

I am reminded of a very clever man's very stupid son who once told me that "All the boat people were thick as pig shit!"

 

I pointed out to him that lack of an education did not make them unintelligent, merely uneducated. I then left him to it as he was spoiling a good party.

I don't think we are in disagreement regarding the concepts, it is just the interpretaion of semantics where we may differ.

[David Schweizer]

Maybe I'm just a revisionist, I do think that the 'gifted amateur' view of 18th and 19th century engineers is a product of the 1960's and 1970's anti-establishment culture

 

Richard

Who said anything about 'gifted amateurs' Richard. you are introducing a concept which no one has suggested. I referred to craftsmen who used their skill and knowledge to invent machines.

 

My great great grandfather was blacksmith, he was uneducated and probably illiterate, but I suspect he would have resented being referred to as an amateur.

Edited February 21, 2012 by David Schweizer

[bizzard]

Just for a few seconds I read "Seven foot drivers" and thought the men had to be 84 inches tall to qualify . . . . silly me!

Some had 3 foot drivers.

[bizzard]

Look at old Maudslay the man that got the metal turning centre-lathe as accurate as it is today,apparently he kept on and on making centre-lathes with the one he'd previously made,each one gradually becoming more and more accurate.

[Pluto]

In the late eighteenth and early nineteenth century, there were no academic institutions in England where you could study practical engineering, and yet that was possibly the time of England's greatest achievements in technology. On the continent, there were such academic technical institutions, such as Ponts et Chausees in Paris and the Bergbau Academie in Freiberg, However, they were no where near as successful in developing technology as we were in England. Looking at Prussian papers recording their attempts to build a replica Blenkinsop steam locomotive in the mid 1810s, it was obvious they could not turn the theoretical into the practical, possibly because of the division between academics and the skilled. They turned this around in the late nineteenth century, and in Germany the skilled worker still has high status. In this country, the academics took over, resulting in the decline in status for skilled workers and a decline in technological development from that time. For example, Lanchester developed the theory of circulation around an aircraft's wing, something essential to the design of aircraft, yet academics ridiculed him because he was not at a university. Today, all the constants associated with flow over wings are named after Germans, who based their work on Lanchester's ideas.

 

I am not saying that we don't need academic institutions, but that we need to value those with practical skills much more, and by practical skills, I don't mean the rubbish apprenticeships usually offered today. To understand practical skills, I would suggest reading Sturts's Wheelwrights Shop, where he says that you need to start learning practical skills at fourteen, otherwise you will not have the necessary manual dexterity. Such a statement does make me somewhat worried about how we train surgeons! As someone who served his time on the shop floor and then went to university, I feel that a good skilled worker is better than the majority of academic-trained students. To be a good skilled worker, you need the same level of intelligence as is needed for a degree, but you also need the manual dexterity to go with that intelligence.