BW Plans for Moorings

[nb maggie]

I have seen it reported that BW in an effort to improving mooring facilities is looking for private sector investors to invest in the building of marnias.

 

They have produced an investment guide which you can get from here:

 

http://www.britishwaterways.co.uk/marinade...ment/index.html

 

It makes interesting reading.

 

The investment guide they have produced is based on marinas of between 250 and 350 boats with the emphasis on the bigger size. They want about 35 such marinas.

 

Do people want such big Marinas ?

 

It may however be more cost effective (Planning permission etc) to build mega marinas than 250 small ones for 50 boats?

 

Also with a big marina the cost of boatyard facilities etc are proprtionally lower/more profitable.

 

It is reckoned that an investment of £4M is needed per marina.

 

The BW investment return is also based on pent-up demand for mooring. It is therefore in BWs interest to discourage small mooring schemes and restrict BW moorings ?

 

What about farmers who see small on-line mooring as extra income being encouraged to diversify by govt?

 

BW also seems to want to move way from online mooring.

[dor]

We went past the new marina, still being built, at Swanley on the Llangollen a couple of weeks ago.

 

It is HUGE. I just hope that it will fill up with status boaters that want a cheap weekend cottage and don't actually want to go cruising.

 

315 boats moored between Swanley locks and the Hurleston flight just seems crazy to me.

[Breals]

Yes they seem to be encouraging the big, high-end marinas with high fees. Presumably because they think that big marinas can charge higher fees because of the better facilities they can offer, so there won't be an effect on their own business.

 

Personally I think that smaller marinas with slightly more basic facilities would be more welcome on the canals, spreading the boating traffic a bit. You see so many sad, derelict places that have the space for a few long term moorings without obstructing canal traffic, and the investment could help tidy the place up a bit and improve security. And online moorings would be fine where the canal is wide and less popular with visiting boaters, it's just a pity about the rather petty 2mph speed limit past moored boats!

 

We don't all want to pay through the nose for on site facilities. All we want is a couple of bollards and maybe a bit of secure fencing.

 

On the other hand I think rivers like the Severn could absorb more boats from big marinas, for obvious reasons.

[Liam]

I just hope that it will fill up with status boaters that want a cheap weekend cottage and don't actually want to go cruising.

 

I agree with Dor here, I just hope they fill the marinas with boats which never move so they're out of the way.

[Pirate]

Hey Great

 

It`ll be just Like Butlins holiday camp......Maybe they`ll build pubs and Bingo halls there too

[GRPCruiserman]

I could never afford to moor in a marina, it would just price me off the canal. A recent on line mooring scheme on The Lancaster is trying to be closed by the local council at the moment. BW are in favour of the scheme, apparently, but we have a HUGE shortage of moorings with long waiting lists and lost of boats on those lists 'bridge hopping'.

 

If they want to build marinas, then fair enough, as long as they don't ban on line mooring for the poorer of us.

 

I agree, above Hurleston seems madness!! Perhaps they are assuming that most traffic will be up the Llangollen. I prefer the Shroppie myself.

[John Orentas]

Surely it is a case of supply and demand, moorings are expensive because they are in short supply, it is a sellers market at present. We should be encouraging the building of new marinas, commercial pressure will then drive the prices down.

 

But they must be private development schemes, if BW are allowed to do it they will simply use their monopoly position to extort more and more money from all of us.

Edited May 9, 2006 by John Orentas

[alan_fincher]

A great deal of sense from contributors to this thread so far.

 

It must be true in no small degree that the exhorbitant rates for some moorings are because they are in short supply, and it's a sellers market.

 

So, I'd agree that making more available should help regulate prices.

 

I don't actually think it entirely matters what market the new developments are aimed at. If these are luxurious ones, with lots of facilities, and at great cost, then there will still be enough people with £100K plus boats prepared to move into them, which should make the "lesser" ones they currently occupy more available. If on the other hand, more modest berths are built, at lower cost, that will also satisfy current demand.

 

I agree it is a shame if huge developments are allowed at places on the canals that are already crowded, but I guess it's a bit of a catch 22, and that if adequate moorings are not provided where the demand is, many people will get priced out of those berths that do exist.

 

I also favour smaller developments, (absolute maximum 100 berths, let's say), but of course several of these on the same stretch will still produce as muich traffic as one large one.

 

Also, on balance, I agree that in many areas no more linear moorings should be permitted, and reluctantly accept that offline is the way forward, simply to try and protect the experience of those actually cruising.

[DHutch]

Personally I think that smaller marinas with slightly more basic facilities would be more welcome on the canals...

Yeah, we're quite happy with somthing a little more basic, espically if it means reduced fees!

[GRPCruiserman]

A great deal of sense from contributors to this thread so far.

 

It must be true in no small degree that the exhorbitant rates for some moorings are because they are in short supply, and it's a sellers market.

 

So, I'd agree that making more available should help regulate prices.

 

I don't actually think it entirely matters what market the new developments are aimed at. If these are luxurious ones, with lots of facilities, and at great cost, then there will still be enough people with £100K plus boats prepared to move into them, which should make the "lesser" ones they currently occupy more available. If on the other hand, more modest berths are built, at lower cost, that will also satisfy current demand.

 

I agree it is a shame if huge developments are allowed at places on the canals that are already crowded, but I guess it's a bit of a catch 22, and that if adequate moorings are not provided where the demand is, many people will get priced out of those berths that do exist.

 

I also favour smaller developments, (absolute maximum 100 berths, let's say), but of course several of these on the same stretch will still produce as muich traffic as one large one.

 

Also, on balance, I agree that in many areas no more linear moorings should be permitted, and reluctantly accept that offline is the way forward, simply to try and protect the experience of those actually cruising.

 

 

I hadn't thought of the lower cost moorings becoming more available, but I actually enjoy passing moored boats on linear moorings, it brightens things up, something else to see, especially in areas I don't normally cruise, so I would hate to see them disappear altogether. I think it unlikely on The Lancaster as there are quite a few well populated linear moorings and there is already a huge mooring shortage, but each time a new marina opens, a few become available so if BW stopped issuing new mooring permits, I suppose they could weedle it down gradually. In some areas they seem to simply become empty, there is one near Dean Locks that has, but on near where I live used to be full of GRP cruisers (I bought one of them once!!) then it gradually emptied and had no boats on it at all for a year or so, then recently has refilled with narrow boats and is now packed again.

 

Also,I suppose there are fewer linear mooring in number terms, as the trend for narrow boats over cruisers increases, each boat occupies more of the linear stretch meaning that less owners as it were can be accomodated.

 

If new marinas no longer accomodate cruisers, then where are we to go? Linear moorings, I think, will always have their place.

 

A marina near my mooring charges for the length of boat that the jetty COULD accomodate, not the actual length of boat, so if this is the way things are going, even a starter 16 foot boat may have to pay for a 40 foot jetty!! The marina concrned, at least, does have a significant number of GRP cruiser size jetties so it doesn't really apply there.

 

One boatyard (not marina) used to have no minimum charge, and only charged 25p per foot per week, including water and electric, now THAT was budget boating!! You could pay weekly as well. Sadly , although they are still cheap, they are now much dearer than that.

Edited May 10, 2006 by GRPCruiserman

[alan_fincher]

I hadn't thought of the lower cost moorings becoming more available, but I actually enjoy passing moored boats on linear moorings, it brightens things up, something else to see, especially in areas I don't normally cruise, so I would hate to see them disappear altogether.

I'm certainly not suggesting that all current linear moorings should be done away with over time. The situation is generally liveable with where I currently do my boating, (although has over the years become very tiresome on one or two stretches).

 

But I think if large parts of the obvious demand for additional moorings were met by aditional online places, then it really does start to become quite a pain.

 

If new marinas no longer accomodate cruisers, then where are we to go? Linear moorings, I think, will always have their place.

 

Our established marina was obviously first designed with a mix of longer and shorter boats in mind. It's all "end on" mooring against pontoons.

 

Most of the marina has the pontoons only 2 narrowbaot's worth apart, meaning each side can only have one boat on it.

 

But up one end, it was built with a 3 boat width between pontoons, so that multiple shorter boats can be on each, and the ones nearer the shore still have a boat's width to slip in and out.

 

However, down here, the mix has moved so much towards longer boats, that even the small amount of space designed for those shorter ones is more than enough to meet demand, and these days at several of those pontoons there are still just two single longer boats, and a wasted gap down the middle. (I wouldn't mind getting one though - it would be a hell of a lot easier to get in and out of )

[carlt]

But I think if large parts of the obvious demand for additional moorings were met by aditional online places, then it really does start to become quite a pain.

 

I don't quite understand the problem with online moorings. Is it because you have to slow down? If all these 'mega marinas' fill up with boats new to the system, then think how slowly you'll be going on summer bank holidays when the marinas are empty. when the roads are gridlocked the governments answer is to build more roads. They won't be building new canals in a hurry.

[nb maggie]

I don't understand the objection to on-line either.

 

Here on the L&L in Yorkshire real Marinas are few and far between (either Chorley or Near Bradford) so you would have to trek 50 to 70 miles to one even though I can reach the canal in about 25mins. Even so the nearest mooring I can find (bottom of a farmers field) is 40 mins away. Yet bizzarly one of BWs business cases for the investment in big marinas is that people are prepared to drive further to them - surely thats exactly what we don't want.

 

We were actually in a marina for our first year - at Apperly Bridge - and it was great, easy car access, water, elec, security, boat shop, local shops now I walk across a muddy field and I don't save that much either. But the problem was it was a 1Hr 10 Min min drive (on a good day - bank holidays etc could be ages) and the route also went through 3 different urban area bottlenecks (rush hours, school run, speed cameras!). I actually have to drive round the country for my job so I am used to it, but regular trips to the boat were a real pain.

 

I would favour a mix of on and off line for different users. Again here on the L&L I have noticed a lot of places where small on-line mooring could be quickly and cheaply created (both on the towpath and other side) for those that want them.

 

I bet BW could even sell them with an upfront cost then x years 'free' mooring to cover the capital cost so there would be no capital outlay, and yet a basic concrete mooing with bollards etc would last years so they would easily make money from it.

 

I am also sure that some small investors would invest in such small moorings (say 5-10 boats) if BW would engage with them, it would be better for all than a buy to let property.

 

On the plus side when I was in a Marina I would reckon 80% of boats never left it, keeping the canal clear for cruisers, however I do think Marinas encourage a 2nd home mentality which may actually drive mooring costs up.

[alan_fincher]

I don't quite understand the problem with online moorings. Is it because you have to slow down? If all these 'mega marinas' fill up with boats new to the system, then think how slowly you'll be going on summer bank holidays when the marinas are empty. when the roads are gridlocked the governments answer is to build more roads. They won't be building new canals in a hurry.

Carl,

 

The way I see it, this discussion is about creation of new (i.e. additional) moorings.

 

These could, of course, be off-line or on-line, or any combination between the two.

 

You suggest that if it's done with marinas, all the occupants of them will be out at bank holiday weekends, grinding the canal to a halt.

 

But you don't seem to have a problem with more on-line moorings. Are you suggesting that people who got these additional online moorings would in some way use their boats less than those who might be candidates for boats in marinas ?

 

Personally I very much doubt this, and don't think marina based people are any more likely to cruise their boat than those not in marinas. (My guess is that even at the busiest weekends, far more boats stay on their moorings than venture out, whatever the mooring type - unless they are hire boats, of course!...)

 

I think you'll only stop the most popular places becoming grid-locked at busy times if a cap was to be placed on the number of boats actually allowed on the system, (including hired ones), irrespective of where they moored.

 

I can't see that happening, and hence don't have a problem with additional sensibly sized offline moorings to ease the canalside congestion.

 

If you look at my post, I did actually say I was not in favour of these very big marinas, and favoured more smaller ones.

 

Alan

 

Here on the L&L in Yorkshire real Marinas are few and far between (either Chorley or Near Bradford) so you would have to trek 50 to 70 miles to one even though I can reach the canal in about 25mins. Even so the nearest mooring I can find (bottom of a farmers field) is 40 mins away. Yet bizzarly one of BWs business cases for the investment in big marinas is that people are prepared to drive further to them - surely thats exactly what we don't want.

Again, see my original post, where I said.....

 

Also, on balance, I agree that in many areas no more linear moorings should be permitted, and reluctantly accept that offline is the way forward, simply to try and protect the experience of those actually cruising.

 

By that I meant areas that already have significant traffic, much linear mooring, and enough demand to fill marinas if built. Obviously it's not appropriate to everywhere, and there may be canals where people are not prepared to make the investments associated with offline mooring, because they don't think they'll get a sufficient return on it.

 

If I gave th impression that I was against additional linear moorings in every possible case, then I didn't mean to, and I apologise for the confusion.

[John Orentas]

I moor in a marina and I can guarantee that during the warmest, sunniest bank holiday weekend no more than 10% of the boats are out cruising. Very soon someone is going to mention the congestion at one or two of the handful of locks in the country that regularly get very busy, all of us who have been around for a while learn to avoid the busy times.

 

As for those interminable stretches of moored boats, every other one containing some moron who shouts at every passing craft to slow down regardless of their speed, the sooner we get rid of those the better.

[Breals]

As for those interminable stretches of moored boats, every other one containing some moron who shouts at every passing craft to slow down regardless of their speed, the sooner we get rid of those the better.

 

I don't object to the boats, in fact as someone else has said, it can be quite interesting peering in through the blinds! But I agree about the morons who berate passing boats doing what they were designed to do i.e. travel. I've had people pass me at quite a lick and it hasn't caused me any problems (I wait till later in the evening before I practice my hobby of house-of-cards building or get the 'Buckaroo' set out).

 

Most irritating of all are the hectoring little 'SLOW! MOORED BOATS!!!' signs people put up all over the place. Although I can't generally make them out too well at the speeds I do.

 

EDIT sorry off topic and flippant!

Edited May 10, 2006 by Breals

[John Orentas]

 

Most irritating of all are the hectoring little 'SLOW! MOORED BOATS!!!' signs people put up all over the place. Although I can't generally make them out too well at the speeds I do.

 

EDIT sorry off topic and flippant!

 

 

But not quite as irritating as those "Back off Baby on Board" signs that people have in the back window of their cars. Is it only me that has the barely suppressed urge to ram them at speed. One day !

[davidandheather]

But not quite as irritating as those "Back off Baby on Board" signs that people have in the back window of their cars. Is it only me that has the barely suppressed urge to ram them at speed. One day !

and me john

david

[bottle]

I have not seen 'back off baby on board' sign, I have seen the yellow diamond with 'baby/child on board' they are there to inform the emergency services of that fact and in the event of an accident that they should be looking for them.

 

Now as to whether they are used and displayed correctly..............................................

[anhar]

I have not seen 'back off baby on board' sign, I have seen the yellow diamond with 'baby/child on board' they are there to inform the emergency services of that fact and in the event of an accident that they should be looking for them.

 

Now as to whether they are used and displayed correctly..............................................

Those "Baby on Board" dangling notices in cars annoy me. I don't carry a notice in mine saying "Old Chartered Accountant on Board" do I? Who cares who's on board. Arrogant gits.

 

regards

Steve

[bottle]

Steve

 

I think you miss the point, these 'diamonds' are for a specific purpose, to inform the emergency services that a baby/child was on board.

 

It has been known for small children/babies to be thrown from a vehicle during an accident it has also been known for a child to slip under a front seat of the vehicle and not be found.

 

Thankfully these occurances are rare but they have happened.

 

The thing that annoys me is that they are not used correctly, dad driving to work on his lonesome, now if he has an accident the emergency services could waste a lot of time looking for the non existant child.

[John Orentas]

Those silly signs have no official status, or unofficial for that matter, they are saying 'We are important people because we have gifted the world with one or two facsimiles of ourselves so we must have priority".

 

Why this society rewards people for over populating the world I don't know. You still see stupid middle aged women on game shows getting a round of applause because they are responsible for the production of a dozen or two extra mouths to feed.

 

Guess why my boat is called SQUEERS.

[howardang]

Those silly signs have no official status, or unofficial for that matter, they are saying 'We are important people because we have gifted the world with one or two facsimiles of ourselves so we must have priority".

 

Why this society rewards people for over populating the world I don't know. You still see stupid middle aged women on game shows getting a round of applause because they are responsible for the production of a dozen or two extra mouths to feed.

 

Guess why my boat is called SQUEERS.

I agree that the Baby on board signs are sillyand more often than not there is no baby on board which will give the emergency services a run around in case of an accident.

 

The silliest one I have seen so far is "Caution - Show Dogs in Transit." What on earth are we supposed to do when we see that?

 

Howard

[GRPCruiserman]

 

As for those interminable stretches of moored boats, every other one containing some moron who shouts at every passing craft to slow down regardless of their speed, the sooner we get rid of those the better.

 

You have obviously never had to boat on a budget, or perhaps when you did, the canal system was cheaper to use and moor on and not as regulated as it is now, but what you fail to realise is that the only type of mooring that I can afford IS a linear mooring.

 

I would like nothing better than be able to park next to my boat, even when it's rained a lot and fields cannot be driven on, be able to plug in to mains electric, and have a tap at the end of the jetty, but it costs too much.

 

Perhaps you are one of the growing number of boaters who think that the canals are for the rich only.

 

My salary has been reduced by a third (gradually) during the last two years, when everyone is going on about the rise of disposable income, mine (retail trade) has definately been reduced. The cost of everything, however, has increased. We now run only one car whereas we used to run two, we buy cheap food instead of the better, nicer tasting stuff, and the cost of the boat, well, perhaps we should get rid and get out, it certainly gets dearer.

 

As to 'child on board' signs, although we have one, it doesn't stop idiots trying their best to cause damage to our car (and us) by driving erratically. Only yesterday a guy (of the older generation) tried to overtake me in a queue of traffic waiting to enter a roundabout and nearly writing off our car (and us). The biggest culprits seem to be Peugeot drivers who have an attitude that they own the road and just have to be in front of you. When they become richer, they then progress to BMWs. Perhaps it's just that the arrogant driver buys these makes, and of course there will now be a barrage of exceptors.

 

We actually had a 'Baby on Board' sign on the boat when my son was little, but that was to discourage the unsavoury from casting us adrift in the middle of the night. Don't know whether it acheived anything, though!!

 

Incidentally, I have no problem with people doing 4mph past me on my mooring. I moor correctly with bow and stern springs correctly positioned, and the boat doesn't ever seem to move even with the largest, fastest moving passer by.

 

I must also state that I prefer to wake up in the morning, open the curtains, and look out on beautiful countryside rather than the next boat along in a marina.

 

I wouldn't drive any further to the boat whether it were in a marina or not. I cant see any logic in that!! The nearer it is, the better!!

[dor]

THe fact that the "baby on board " signs are displayed regardless of whether or not the little darlin' is actually in the car means they are totally worthless.

 

The ones that make me cringre are the "little princess on board" Yeuuughh.

 

I'm still looking for one that says "Grumpy old man on board"