Boat Title/Surveyors?

[Wanderer Vagabond]

As the time that I hope to purchase a Narrowboat to CC in retirement draws closer I am starting to look at the options and necessities. One area that I am unsure of is how do you establish ownership of a boat? Unlike a house there are no 'deeds' nor are there registration documents like a car (or at least I haven't heard of them yet, perhaps someone can enlighten me). Does everyone take on a solictor to carry out the transaction? and if so how does he establish that the person selling the boat is the true owner? I don't suppose that fraud is a particularly big problem in a community like canalboaters however if there is only an occasional victim I would rather that it wasn't me!

 

And as a sort of Two for One on my first real posting looking for information, can anyone recommend a good surveyor? I don't need to know about the bad one's (those posts will be edited out anyway) I just want to know of those that have carried out a good job for which you as a boatbuyer have been really satisfied. I have got the list of surveyors from here:- http://www.canaljunction.com/boat/surveyors.htm but that doesn't tell me which one's have given good service. And how much comeback do you have on a surveyor if the job is badly done? Do they carry liability insurance if they fail to spot a significant defect? If only some do how do you know which one's have?

 

As I go on I think of more and more questions as I'm a natural pessimist (but at least we are never disappointed, if all goes well it is seen as a bonus rather than the expected disaster) but I'll leave it at that for the moment.

[Rebotco]

As the time that I hope to purchase a Narrowboat to CC in retirement draws closer I am starting to look at the options and necessities. One area that I am unsure of is how do you establish ownership of a boat? Unlike a house there are no 'deeds' nor are there registration documents like a car (or at least I haven't heard of them yet, perhaps someone can enlighten me). Does everyone take on a solictor to carry out the transaction? and if so how does he establish that the person selling the boat is the true owner? I don't suppose that fraud is a particularly big problem in a community like canalboaters however if there is only an occasional victim I would rather that it wasn't me!

 

And as a sort of Two for One on my first real posting looking for information, can anyone recommend a good surveyor? I don't need to know about the bad one's (those posts will be edited out anyway) I just want to know of those that have carried out a good job for which you as a boatbuyer have been really satisfied. I have got the list of surveyors from here:- http://www.canaljunction.com/boat/surveyors.htm but that doesn't tell me which one's have given good service. And how much comeback do you have on a surveyor if the job is badly done? Do they carry liability insurance if they fail to spot a significant defect? If only some do how do you know which one's have?

 

As I go on I think of more and more questions as I'm a natural pessimist (but at least we are never disappointed, if all goes well it is seen as a bonus rather than the expected disaster) but I'll leave it at that for the moment.

 

In my limited experience, a bill of sale is the main way of establishing ownership particularly on older boats.

Unlike cars, NBs are rarely nicked - probably because a quick getaway is doomed to failure!

 

Regarding surveyors, you may get more response if you quoted what area of the country you refer to.

 

Best wishes

 

Brian

[Mac of Cygnet]

nor are there registration documents like a car (or at least I haven't heard of them yet, perhaps someone can enlighten me).

 

The registration document of a car has nothing to do with, and does not prove, ownership. Like any other item, including a boat, ownership is established by a bill of sale, proof of purchase, receipt, call it what you will, or other documents if you didn't buy it (eg inherited it or built it).

 

As to surveyors, any good surveyor will have insurance against mistakes - you'll have to ask. Your source of surveyors is probably as good as anything, but you could also try this

[dor]

A good broker will have done quite a bit to establish ownership. Problems can arise if there is finance outstanding on a boat. This is difficult to establish, although a broker should get a signed statement to say that no finance is outstanding. If there is, the broker will pay the finance house direct to clear the debt.

 

The other area that can give rise to problems is where shared ownership is involved. It is not unknown for someone to try and sell a boat without the other ownerss being aware. Again a good broker will do all they can to establish ownership by checking through documentation. The seller's bill of sale from when they bought the boat is the best bit of paper, followed by their insurance documents.

 

A broker should know what to look for; this is one of the reasons you are better off buying through a reputable broker.

[The Bagdad Boatman (waits)]

Our first boat was bought by passing over pound notes in a pub. Not the best way but it was ok. Look for historical documents and photos to prove past ownership.

[Wanderer Vagabond]

Thanks for the replies so far, it was principally the problems highlighted by 'Dor' that I was thinking about:- part owner of a boat trying to sell the whole boat without telling his boat partners or buying a boat with finance still owing on it.

 

A bill of sale is good but it is not beyond the wit of man to forge one. It would certainly support your case if it all goes wrong and you find yourself in a Civil Court trying to prove that you bought the boat in good faith, I want to try to ensure that I don't find myself in that position (like I said I'm an eternal pessimist!!). It sounds as though brokerage is the way to go.

 

One other area I was considering is what records do British Waterways (or whatever it is called now) hold of licence holders? and is there general access to this information? My thoughts are that if the same person has bought the licence for the boat for the past couple of years there is a good likelihood of him/her being the genuine owner.

 

I think that handing over £50,000 in banknotes in a pub somewhere would make me VERY nervous!!!

 

In terms of what area of the country I'm looking for a surveyor, I would be looking principally at the Midlands (Coventry,Birmingham,Leicester,Rugby etc) but if there is a really good surveyor somewhere else I'm sure they could be tempted to travel.

[wrigglefingers]

Thanks for the replies so far, it was principally the problems highlighted by 'Dor' that I was thinking about:- part owner of a boat trying to sell the whole boat without telling his boat partners or buying a boat with finance still owing on it.

 

A bill of sale is good but it is not beyond the wit of man to forge one. It would certainly support your case if it all goes wrong and you find yourself in a Civil Court trying to prove that you bought the boat in good faith, I want to try to ensure that I don't find myself in that position (like I said I'm an eternal pessimist!!). It sounds as though brokerage is the way to go.

 

One other area I was considering is what records do British Waterways (or whatever it is called now) hold of licence holders? and is there general access to this information? My thoughts are that if the same person has bought the licence for the boat for the past couple of years there is a good likelihood of him/her being the genuine owner.

 

I think that handing over £50,000 in banknotes in a pub somewhere would make me VERY nervous!!!

 

In terms of what area of the country I'm looking for a surveyor, I would be looking principally at the Midlands (Coventry,Birmingham,Leicester,Rugby etc) but if there is a really good surveyor somewhere else I'm sure they could be tempted to travel.

 

Paul Smith is your man, thorough, tough but fair. And he will ask about title to the boat and not give up until he's happy. Website here

[andywatson]

I concur with Wiggley and Dor's advice above.

BW won't tell you anything for data protection purposes.

 

I sold my last boat through ABNB and can confirm that before they market a boat that the ownership paperwork trail must be perfect .

[station tug]

iv built my boat from scratch..i have build photo's but thats it..no recipts ..how do i stand when/if i want to sell it??

[andywatson]

I'll bet you end up with more documentation and receipts than you expect now.

 

Receipts for steel will be good and other fitting out items which will no doubt tie in with your build photo record.

You will also have a survey at some stage.

Keep all your BW licences and past surveys with your name on.

Edited December 12, 2011 by andywatson

[Pentargon]

Thanks for the replies so far, it was principally the problems highlighted by 'Dor' that I was thinking about:- part owner of a boat trying to sell the whole boat without telling his boat partners or buying a boat with finance still owing on it.person has bought the licence for the boat for the past couple of years there is a good likelihood of him/her being the genuine owner.

 

In terms of what area of the country I'm looking for a surveyor, I would be looking principally at the Midlands (Coventry,Birmingham,Leicester,Rugby etc) but if there is a really good surveyor somewhere else I'm sure they could be tempted to travel.

 

Hiya WV! I'm running ahead of you slightly in the race for the water. Provenance is the first thing I checked, using Jim Shead's boat register as a starting point. The 40' boat they were trying to sell me (and charge mooring for by the foot) turned out to be 36'. I dropped my offer by £3000 at once to the shock and dismay of the brokers but to my delight the owners agreed. Jim Shead's register also showed that the name and number on the boat were the same as on the register. The latest safety cert (shortly to run out) was accompanied by the previous one, showing 8yrs ownership. A receipt for sheeting the bottom at a well-known yard in 2002 really clinched it.

 

As for survey, mine is yet to be completed to clinch the deal; the broker can only winch out one boat at a time and can't slip 'mine' til mid-Jan and here's the rub. You can't just have any old boat surveyed when you are dealing with brokers. You have to sign up to purchase, lay 10% of an agreed price on the line, pay the surveyor up-front £500 + 20% VAT and pay the yard about the same to pull it out (and if it passes survey black it). Then you need to find between £1000 and £2000 + VAT for a year's mooring unless you want the continuous hassle of being a [vulnerable] continuous cruiser.

 

Once the provenance is sorted as far as I'm concerned everything else is negotiable. Apart from VAT and the weather. Oh! If it passes survey you have to buy. If it fails you don't but the £600 x 2 stays spent.

Edited December 29, 2011 by Pentargon

[Wanderer Vagabond]

Hi Pentargon

 

It seems that you are well ahead of me in terms of information in the race for the water, thanks for the suggestion of Jim Shead's site, I looked at it sometime in the past then lost the link to it, the information contained in that site is truly awesome!

 

I am interested in your experience of surveying the boat though. I'm not sure about the bit "..You have to sign up to purchase..". I'm willing to put in a bid 'subject to survey' but then I'm not willing to give any 'agreed price' until I have the results of the survey tucked in my hot little hand. The result of the survey I would have expected to affect the offer that I am willing to make on the boat.

 

I would think that a boat would have to be pretty dire to 'fail' a survey but there may be many things that a survey may uncover which would not necessarily render it 'uncanalworthy' (I know, no such word!) but would discourage me from wanting to buy it, if the boat had already been plated would be one factor. My insistence would be on the deposit being refundable which may not necessarily fit in with the broker's terms (solution: try another broker?).

 

Since the surveying of the boat is entirely my responsibility (the contract is between me and the surveyor) I don't quite follow why I would be expected to pay a broker any substantial amount of money. I'm quite content to pay a reasonable amount of money for the broker to arrange for the boat to go to a suitable slipway, but since I'm looking at boats in the region of £50,000 I don't think £5,000 is reasonable! (I could hire a boat for 6 weeks for that AND get it surveyed!). I certainly would not want to go through the broker to the surveyor.

 

Perhaps I am being naive in my expectation of what I will need to do to get a boat surveyed. I was aware of the cost of surveying (about £600) and got a quote of about £200 to get it out of the water and I am as content as you can be in writing that off if the boat has any major faults. It has always seemed to me that, as with any other big purchase (house,car, etc) you have to be prepared to walk away, otherwise you get a lifetime of regretting to do so. (I did say before that I'm a natural pessimist!)

[ditchcrawler]

Some places slip boats a lot cheaper than others, especially if they are likely to get a blacking job out of it