illness

[Scooby]

Thanks for all your replies, i shall move the carbon monoxide detector to the bow of the boat closer to the fire and increase the vent size from 40mm/100mm to 100mm/200mm in the bow doors and will now only use smokeless coal instead of the stuff supplied by the local garage.

 

 

haha, never use garage coal....i made that mistake.....like the olden times when the coal man used to fill your bunker lol, just throw it away and buy proper stuff..thats why you got black stuff in the boat...

[bizzard]

haha, never use garage coal....i made that mistake.....like the olden times when the coal man used to fill your bunker lol, just throw it away and buy proper stuff..thats why you got black stuff in the boat...

House coal like steam coal needs to be burnt briskly for maximum heat and clean burning.Not just ticking over gooing everything up.

[ditchcrawler]

Please can anyone give me advise on my boat stove.I have recently bought a narrow boat with a wood, coal stove fitted.

It warms the boat beautifully,i have fitted a new smoke alarm, and a carbon monoxide alarm.

on two occasions i have woken in the morning with with a headache and general feeling of unwellness.

On a white sheet in the boat there appears to be small particales of a sooty black deposit.

The flue is clean, and the fire is cleaned before each use, the seals appear to be in good condition and dose not emitt smoke, althogh the bottom is left slightly ajar to enable the fire to draw, if closed completley the fire will go out.There is adequate ventelation,as it has been tested for its BSC and i have also left a small window open above the sleeping bunk.

Can anyone give me any advice on the matter,as i do like the stove as it warms the boat well and is handy for cooking and boiling water,or should i remove it and install a gas heating system.

On the news tonight a couple found dead sitting in their house, coal fire suspected.

[bridgit]

just another thought, our neighbour was getting really bad headaches, he had swept the chimney but didn,t realise that soot

 

sat on the top of the back boiler and was blocked. He ended up in A&E.

 

He had two smoke alarms and two carbon monoxide alarms.

[sociable_hermit]

Get a digital CO alarm and study the readings closely for a few days.

 

I found that my stove would occasionally emit low levels of CO if I had a 'green' fire. The levels weren't enough to set the alarm off, but the meter did record what was happening.

 

Even these very low readings were enough to give me a splitting headache, wheezy breathing and a woozy, thick-headed, faint feeling. Opening the doors and windows would clear it, but it does take quite a while and it's best to wait outside (a pain late at night, in the rain!).

 

I ended up cleaning the flue with a wire brush screwed to a broom handle, as the flue brush wasn't stiff enough to shift all the soot. Have also tried to build the fire up gradually rather than blacking it out, and burning less wood as this seems to fur up the chimney double quick.

[Chertsey]

It could be a number of reasons and nothing to do with the fire but i advise DO NOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES use the stove until you have found out what your problem is YOU COULD EASILY DIE. Enough said I think.

This is the sort of response that makes the person posting it feel good but does nothing to help the OP.

[Bob18]

Carbon monoxide is an insidious poison, it can kill very rapidly, or it can just make you "feel ill" for days or weeks at a time, then suddenly your system stops coping with it and....

 

So check the stove and flue for air tightness, get (at least) one of those display and record CO alarms that can be used as a "sniffer" and check through your boat. Let it sit in each location some time, and, if possible, watch the reading.

 

One thing, and I think someone has already mentioned this, make sure it isn't being drawn in from outside; do this when your stove is out, and has been out for some time so you aren't seeing anything from "your side".

[Ally]

just one other thought....do you keep your hot ashes in the boat? They really will emit fumes and, I surpose (?) CO ...we once kept ours in the cratch till they cooled, in a metal bucket, on my last boat, and it was noxious in a very short time...affected all the brass too!

[Dekazer]

Just a thought, the instructions on CO monitors are quite specific regarding positioning, and I think (from memory) that they're supposed to be low.. Can anyone check and confirm? (I'm on a bus so can't...) If the OP's is incorrectly positioned it wouldn't necessarily help anyway. If in doubt, always get the experts in, the peace of mind will be worth the cost

[Bob18]

Carbon monoxide is slightly less dense than air, so placing the detector high in the cabin is better than low.

 

LPG (propane) is denser than air so putting a detector near the floor is better

 

 

With any detector you need to think where the gas is going to be coming from and where it is going to accumulate so a bit of thought and a smoky candle can help a lot... Place the candle near the stove and watch where the smoke pools, be concerned if that is in the bedroom...

[TimD]

Just a thought, the instructions on CO monitors are quite specific regarding positioning, and I think (from memory) that they're supposed to be low.. Can anyone check and confirm? (I'm on a bus so can't...) If the OP's is incorrectly positioned it wouldn't necessarily help anyway. If in doubt, always get the experts in, the peace of mind will be worth the cost

 

No. CO is about the same weight as nitrogen (N2). So is best placed at head height, but not right next to the ceiling (so in a boat it will be sitting/sleeping head height).

 

This thread is spooky as I too have been worried about this, and have only just read the thread. I too get tired when I light the fire but singlehanding, wood collecting and wood sawing are physical activitles where one doesn't realise how much work one is doing so by early evening I'm more knackered than I realised and lighing a fire makes the cabin warm and toasty, and the fire mesmerising so perhaps it's only natural I get sleepy at this time. I have a CO alarm that seems to be working as far as I can test, but CO concentration levels are continuous and the alarm only gives me binary information. I'd even been to a hardware shop in Horbury Bridge to ask about a CO meter bit they didn't have one, will try today in Wakefield.

 

I'm sure my squirrel is not leaking gas back into the cabin but opening the door does let smoke hence gas into the cabin and burning wood creates quite a lot of CO. I'm not seriously worried about having a fatal level of CO in one evening but I am worried about cumulative effects and long term healt problems.

[Chris Pink]

d. I too get tired when I light the fire but singlehanding, wood collecting and wood sawing are physical activitles where one doesn't realise how much work one is doing so by early evening I'm more knackered than I realised and lighing a fire makes the cabin warm and toasty, and the fire mesmerising so perhaps it's only natural I get sleepy at this time.

 

If you carry on feeling tired in the evening and drowsy once the fire is lit, one day you will die!!!

[mrsmelly]

This is the sort of response that makes the person posting it feel good but does nothing to help the OP.

 

I must say what an absolutely mind blowing stupid response you give to my post. I posted it quickly after the original op question in case he was sat on the boat with his fire on and could have been in imminent danger. It was not meant to cure his problem just as a posssible life saver in a worst case scenario.

[TimD]

If you carry on feeling tired in the evening and drowsy once the fire is lit, one day you will die!!!

 

One day I will die. The thing is to make sure it is not to be a premature death. If I don't light the fire I could get hypothermia, certainly life aboard will be freezing. Either I find a meter which tells me what the CO levels are so I can take positive action about the problem or I conclude that living on a boat is too dangerous, as I might die, and go back to land dwelling again.

[soldthehouse]

 

on two occasions i have woken in the morning with with a headache and general feeling of unwellness.

You say two occasions ..out of how many? and what were the differences in circumstance?

Edited November 12, 2011 by soldthehouse

[The Lockie]

Are you sure the flue is clean.. has the fire been running on wood previously... I developed an easy way of cleaning the flu on my boat. Get your armco chains or any length lying around the boat about 2 ' should do the trick, tie a rope to the chain get on the roof and jiggle/snatch the chain down the length of the flue, this will crack off any build up in the flue, and if wood burning will get rid of any tar build up, make sure you clear the back of the flue at the stove, if the stove pipe has a bend in it make sure this is also clear, I have had direct experience of CO2 poisoning due to a faulty gas fire in my parents house, it damned well nearly killed 3 of my family. PLEASE,PLEASE get this sorted, don't be another statistic!!

[PhilR]

Carbon monoxide is slightly less dense than air, so placing the detector high in the cabin is better than low.

 

LPG (propane) is denser than air so putting a detector near the floor is better

 

 

With any detector you need to think where the gas is going to be coming from and where it is going to accumulate so a bit of thought and a smoky candle can help a lot... Place the candle near the stove and watch where the smoke pools, be concerned if that is in the bedroom...

 

With an important topic like this it would be useful to have clarification from an expert.

 

I had always assumed that an LPG alarm/detector was a different instrument from a CO alarm/detector. I am aware that there are combined smoke and CO alarms, but what would be a good installation for a boat?

 

Would 3 separate (CO, gas and smoke) units be best ? And what types are recommended?

 

Phil

[Guest]

With an important topic like this it would be useful to have clarification from an expert.

 

I had always assumed that an LPG alarm/detector was a different instrument from a CO alarm/detector. I am aware that there are combined smoke and CO alarms, but what would be a good installation for a boat?

 

Would 3 separate (CO, gas and smoke) units be best ? And what types are recommended?

 

Phil

 

I'm no expert but this was clarified earlier in the thread,

 

LPG is heavier than air - detector low

 

CO is lighter than air - detector high

 

Smoke/heat rises - detector high

 

Combined CO and smoke/heat - detectors high

 

It really doesn't need an expert just somebody who can read fitting instructions....

[PhilR]

I'm no expert but this was clarified earlier in the thread,

 

LPG is heavier than air - detector low

 

CO is lighter than air - detector high

 

Smoke/heat rises - detector high

 

Combined CO and smoke/heat - detectors high

 

It really doesn't need an expert just somebody who can read fitting instructions....

 

I understood all that, but you have not replied to my questions. For starters, is there a difference between a CO alarm and a LPG alarm?

[Guest]

I understood all that, but you have not replied to my questions. For starters, is there a difference between a CO alarm and a LPG alarm?

 

yes of course there is, they detect different gasses,

[ditchcrawler]

I understood all that, but you have not replied to my questions. For starters, is there a difference between a CO alarm and a LPG alarm?

Yes LPG detectors are looking for flammable gas so don't detect CO

[TimD]

Everyone keeps on saying that CO is heavier than air [edit: sorry i meant lighter] but in practical terms it isn't. CO is 28.0101 grams per mole and N2 is 28.0138 grams per mol. O2 is a bit heavier 32.0 g/mol and air is essentially 80% N2, 19% O2 and 1% CO2. So yes air is a bit heavier (28.9g/mol ) than CO but no-one ever claims that all the oxygen falls to the floor as the mixing/diffusion is too great.

 

In fact concentrated O2 can be extremely dangerous allowing flammable material (eg wood) to burn and spread very rapidly once ignited, so we should not only be worried about all the propane collecting in the bilges but all the O2 as well ;-)

Edited November 13, 2011 by TimD

[Guest]

Everyone keeps on saying that CO is heavier than air but in practical terms it isn't. CO is 28.0101 grams per mole and N2 is 28.0138 grams per mol. O2 is a bit heavier 32.0 g/mol and air is essentially 80% N2, 19% O2 and 1% CO2. So yes air is a bit heavier (28.9g/mol ) than CO but no-one ever claims that all the oxygen falls to the floor as the mixing/diffusion is too great.

 

In fact concentrated O2 can be extremely dangerous allowing flammable material (eg wood) to burn and spread very rapidly once ignited, so we should not only be worried about all the propane collecting in the bilges but all the O2 as well ;-)

 

No we don;t......

Edited November 13, 2011 by MJG

[Hairy-Neil]

Thanks for all your replies, i shall move the carbon monoxide detector to the bow of the boat closer to the fire and increase the vent size from 40mm/100mm to 100mm/200mm in the bow doors and will now only use smokeless coal instead of the stuff supplied by the local garage.

 

I believe CO is colourless and odourless. Is there any evidence that the fumes given off by smokeless fuel are any less dangerous than those off genuine coal....

[sociable_hermit]

I've got a CO meter/alarm in the saloon, up near the front corner of the boat, but not quite at ceiling height. It isn't quite as instructed in the manual, but what they want is impossible in a narrowboat anyway, so you have to do the best you can.

 

However I've also got a CO alarm in the bedroom, very close to my head when I'm tucked up in bed (so mid-height). I definitely want to be woken up if things get bad enough that it sounds, and should it sound I want to be absolutely sure it will wake me. The one up the front is closest to the right place in textbook terms, but there's a considerable risk it simply won't wake me up.

Edited November 13, 2011 by sociable_hermit