LED Lighting

[Bianca]

(snipped)

 

Well not entirely! The regulator on its own will still let through short spikes of very high voltage that a boat system has a habit of producing occasionally. Some LED lamp suppliers provide optional and basic spike protection devices to go with their products. eg I think Bedazzled do.

 

These spikes may at any unpredictable moment cause damage to unprotected electronic devices.

 

Gibbo of this parish wrote extensively on this subject a year or so ago and gave details of a more comprehensive spike suppression circuit.

 

I wrote the thread details down in my (paper) notebook so I can always find it. Trouble is I've now got to go looking for my notebook.

 

Richard

 

The LED lamps most suitable for Marine have a electronic 10-30V constant-current circuit built in. These lamps allow a lamp to give exactly the same light output at say 10V as they would if the voltage was 30V. An interesting read is at http://boatlamps.co.uk/contents/en-uk/d72.html

[Ex- Member]

I'm not sure what you mean by a voltage regulator, do you mean a suppressor designed for spikes or a seporate electronic circuit to regulate voltage to 12v the latter being much more expensive?

I ask this because some so called voltage regulators turn out to be simple varistors designed to break down above 12v and protect a device from short duration voltage spikes, generated by fridge thermostats etc.

 

A regulator regulates voltage so a 12 volt regulator puts out 12 volts. If a spike is over 12 volts then I assume it would regulate it, many of the leccy buffs on here say fit regulators to protect 12 volt equipment from spikes. Although on 12 volt equipment designed for 12 volt use I'm quite happy they don't need regulation and have never wasted money on them, however others will say the opposite and say tv's will explode or whatever, yet I've never experienced this or know of anyone else who has. As some put it it's an insurance policy if it worries you.

 

Led's though definitely need regulation, some have it built in, but cheaper led's don't seem to.

 

 

 

 

Well not entirely! The regulator on its own will still let through short spikes of very high voltage that a boat system has a habit of producing occasionally.

 

If that's the case, why then do the leccy boffs on here advocate regulators for 12 volt equipment, if what you're saying is correct, then what's the point of a regulator in the first place.

Edited August 10, 2011 by Julynian

[WotEver]

The LED lamps most suitable for Marine have a electronic 10-30V constant-current circuit built in. These lamps allow a lamp to give exactly the same light output at say 10V as they would if the voltage was 30V. An interesting read is at http://boatlamps.co.uk/contents/en-uk/d72.html

These are the ones that sometimes cause problems with DAB radios.

 

Tony

 

If that's the case, why then do the leccy boffs on here advocate regulators for 12 volt equipment, if what you're saying is correct, then what's the point of a regulator in the first place.

Two different issues.

 

1. Equipment not designed for running in a boat/car/truck/whatever (such as 'mains' TVs that just so happen to have an external 12V brick) may be upset when fed around 15V from a charging battery. That's why a 12V regulator is recommended.

 

2. Equipment not designed for running in a boat/car/truck/whatever may not have adequate spike suppression built in. Much more difficult to deal with, but if every piece of equipment has its own feed (rather than the TV being daisy-chained off the fridge for instance) the likelihood of a damaging spike reaching the equipment will be minimised.

 

Tony

[Ex- Member]

2. Equipment not designed for running in a boat/car/truck/whatever may not have adequate spike suppression built in. Much more difficult to deal with, but if every piece of equipment has its own feed (rather than the TV being daisy-chained off the fridge for instance) the likelihood of a damaging spike reaching the equipment will be minimised.

 

Tony

Well equipment not designed for cars boats etc tends to be 240 volt equipment. Equipment with an available 12 volt socket is designed to be run from RV's, they are also supplied with a brick so it can also be operated on 240 volt as well as 12 volt, the reason for this is that they're generally portable units and can be used on either voltage so taken to a RV and operated by 12 volts. That's why I maintain and have been told by an expert that 12 volt equipment is protected from over voltage and don't need regulators.

Added to that if as you say regulators let through spikes, then they are totally useless anyway for those who believe 12 volt systems are susceptible to voltage spikes.

Edited August 10, 2011 by Julynian

[smileypete]

Been a few threads on LEDs and regulation in the past...

 

LED's and voltage regulation

voltage reg for LED lights?

LED lights

 

cheers,

Pete.

[WotEver]

Equipment with an available 12 volt socket is designed to be run from RV's, they are also supplied with a brick so it can also be operated on 240 volt as well as 12 volt, the reason for this is that they're generally portable units and can be used on either voltage so taken to a RV and operated by 12 volts.

That is completely untrue. Where do you get this information from? As an example, I have two small flatscreen televisions at home, both of which are powered by a 12V brick. One of them clearly states "Operating voltage 110/240V AC". It doesn't say "but you can plug the 12V into an RV if you want", and the reason it doesn't is that the up-to-15V that it would receive would possibly break it (it was a very cheap telly).

 

Added to that if as you say regulators let through spikes...

There's no 'if'. Take a look at the regulator that you posted a link to previously. This regulator has absolutely no (none, zero), spike suppression. It's nothing more than an LM2940 with a cap on the output for stability.

 

 

... those who believe 12 volt systems are susceptible to voltage spikes.

 

Those who don't believe it are deluded. I found it difficult to believe myself, originally, but with a bit of research prompted by some posts by those knowledgeable in the subject (Gibbo and Chalky mainly) I began to realise what a huge problem spikes can be in an environment such as a boat.

 

Try reading through the threads Pete linked to above.

 

Tony

 

Okay, I've saved you some time - read this post.

[Nickhlx]

I have to echo what Tony said above - I have spent hours researching the subject over the last year or two - a regulator is definitely needed and a spike protection circuit as well, if you want to have a chance of making LEDs last anywhere near their expected life, and even then the protection is not 100%, but you have a much better chance with the above devices.. It is the case also that a long run will also damp down the spikes, so without the above you may be lucky with those operating off long runs...

 

Gibbo says ( correct me if I misunderstand) that expensive inverters ( Victron 12/3000/120) have elaborate spike arresting circuitry to protect themselves - Whilst our (expensive) TV is a mains with brick for 12 V operation, I only run it off the mains through the brick in an attempt to avoid it suffering attack from spikes ( and it is still going after 2+ years)

 

Nick

 

 

 

[WotEver]

Gibbo says ( correct me if I misunderstand) that expensive inverters ( Victron 12/3000/120) have elaborate spike arresting circuitry to protect themselves - Whilst our (expensive) TV is a mains with brick for 12 V operation, I only run it off the mains through the brick in an attempt to avoid it suffering attack from spikes ( and it is still going after 2+ years)

I'd definitely agree with all that.

 

Tony

[Mr Puffer]

Our boat has those square flourescent lights which are OK but the one in the bathroom has developed a fault. I would like to replace it with an LED light but I am having trouble finding one that is designed to surface mount and has a switch on it.

Any ideas?

You could fit a chrome 12 smd with a surface mount ring ? have a look at 19-12AMy link

[Tony Brooks]

Well equipment not designed for cars boats etc tends to be 240 volt equipment. Equipment with an available 12 volt socket is designed to be run from RV's, they are also supplied with a brick so it can also be operated on 240 volt as well as 12 volt, the reason for this is that they're generally portable units and can be used on either voltage so taken to a RV and operated by 12 volts. That's why I maintain and have been told by an expert that 12 volt equipment is protected from over voltage and don't need regulators.

Added to that if as you say regulators let through spikes, then they are totally useless anyway for those who believe 12 volt systems are susceptible to voltage spikes.

 

 

Would that be the same expert that gave you the somewhat suspect battery advice you passed on a short while ago?

 

I suggest that you try an experiment. Wet your finger and put it across the two horn terminals while someone blows the horn. Do the same for the coil terminals on a relay. In both cases you are likely to get a fair old jolt from the nominal 12v circuit as the item is turned off and the magnetic field collapses across the coil. I find it similar to the jolt you used to get from contact type ignition circuits so we are probably talking about well over 100 volts of spike.

 

By all means risk your own equipment but do not encourage others to risk theirs. This whole thing is not black and white so there will always be people who "get away" with things whilst other get all the problems.

[WotEver]

I've never understood when certain folk say "I've never had a problem so therefore it's okay" when the evidence is overwhelming that they're simply fortunate. If they were in the front line in a battle would the same logic result in them saying "I never got injured, so war isn't dangerous"?

 

Tony

[Nickhlx]

 

Discovering (and later understanding) spikes is what got me "into" electricity when I were a ( 7 yr old ) lud... messing about with batteries, coils, engines and things with the 12 yr old

neighbour with similar fascinations, egged on by his 16 yr old brother ..... and (amazingly) I haven't had a (bad) shock for about 25 yrs now...

 

 

 

Nick

 

 

[DustyDave]

I've never understood when certain folk say "I've never had a problem so therefore it's okay" when the evidence is overwhelming that they're simply fortunate. If they were in the front line in a battle would the same logic result in them saying "I never got injured, so war isn't dangerous"?

 

I'm happy to say I don't have the same concerns over LED lights as I have over war.

 

Dave

[WotEver]

Discovering (and later understanding) spikes is what got me "into" electricity when I were a ( 7 yr old ) lud... messing about with batteries, coils...

I guess HSE wouldn't allow the "Electric Shock" bucket at a fete these days. Bucket with a £1 coin in the bottom, buzzing relay connected to coil with secondary winding having its tails in the bucket: "If you can pick that pound coin up son, you can have it"

 

Tony

[Nickhlx]

I guess HSE wouldn't allow the "Electric Shock" bucket at a fete these days. Bucket with a £1 coin in the bottom, buzzing relay connected to coil with secondary winding having its tails in the bucket: "If you can pick that pound coin up son, you can have it"

 

Tony

 

I guess not - rubber gloves ?

 

Nick

[Ex- Member]

These are the ones that sometimes cause problems with DAB radios.

 

Tony

 

 

Two different issues.

 

1. Equipment not designed for running in a boat/car/truck/whatever (such as 'mains' TVs that just so happen to have an external 12V brick) may be upset when fed around 15V from a charging battery. That's why a 12V regulator is recommended.

 

2. Equipment not designed for running in a boat/car/truck/whatever may not have adequate spike suppression built in. Much more difficult to deal with, but if every piece of equipment has its own feed (rather than the TV being daisy-chained off the fridge for instance) the likelihood of a damaging spike reaching the equipment will be minimised.

Tony

 

 

I haven't been talking about equipment not designed for boat/car/truck/whatever, I'm talking about equipment that is, advertised at 12 volt for boat/car/truck/whatever, The brick is simply a transformer from 240 volts to 12.

 

 

[DustyDave]

I guess HSE wouldn't allow the "Electric Shock" bucket at a fete these days. Bucket with a £1 coin in the bottom, buzzing relay connected to coil with secondary winding having its tails in the bucket: "If you can pick that pound coin up son, you can have it"

 

Tony

 

Stick an ipod in the bucket and a sheet of glass over the top and I'm sure they'd try smashing the glass to get at it though.

 

Dave

[Ex- Member]

That is completely untrue. Where do you get this information from? As an example, I have two small flatscreen televisions at home, both of which are powered by a 12V brick. One of them clearly states "Operating voltage 110/240V AC". It doesn't say "but you can plug the 12V into an RV if you want", and the reason it doesn't is that the up-to-15V that it would receive would possibly break it (it was a very cheap telly).

I don't understand if you have a piece of equipment Operating voltage 110/240V AC". Why do you need a 12 volt brick if the equipment isn't 12 volts.

[WotEver]

I don't understand if you have a piece of equipment Operating voltage 110/240V AC". Why do you need a 12 volt brick if the equipment isn't 12 volts.

How is that confusing? Because the brick puts out 12V that goes into a socket in the back of the telly.

 

I haven't been talking about equipment not designed for boat/car/truck/whatever, I'm talking about equipment that is, advertised at 12 volt for boat/car/truck/whatever...

 

No you're not. That might be what you intended to say, but it's the exact opposite of what you did say.

 

You said:

 

Equipment with an available 12 volt socket is designed to be run from RV's...

 

And that is quite simply incorrect.

 

Tony

Edited August 12, 2011 by WotEver

[Ex- Member]

How is that confusing? Because the brick puts out 12V that goes into a socket in the back of the telly.

 

Tony

 

 

 

No you didn't.

 

You said:

 

 

 

And that is quite simply incorrect.

 

Tony

 

It is not if a piece of equipment has a 12 volt socket, it's clearly designed to be run on 12 volts, why is it there if not ?????????????????????/

 

Brick for our laptop states Operatingvoltage 110/240V AC" lap top is 12 volt

 

Brick for our TV Operating voltage 110/240VAC" the TV is 12 volt

 

Brick for our dab radio Operating voltage110/240V AC it is a 12 volt dab radio

 

 

My 240 volt 50” widescreen has no brick Operatingvoltage 110/240V AC plugs direct into mains socket, but has no 12 volt socket.As it’s 240 volt equipment.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[WotEver]

... if a piece of equipment has a 12 volt socket, it's clearly designed to be run on 12 volts...

Yes it is. A nice, clean, stabilised 12V coming out of the supplied brick. Not a noisy, spikey, unstabilised up to 15V that you'll find on a boat.

 

Does any of the equipment you have state "Suitable for running on a boat at 12V"? If not, then it isn't.

 

Tony

 

If you read the instruction manuals carefully, I wouldn't mind betting that all of the equipment you have that is powered by a brick also has wording similar to "use of any power supply other than the one supplied with this equipment will invalidate the warranty". That would include a 12V battery being charged by a diesel engine with lots of noisy equipment also tacked onto the same supply.

 

edited because I used one of Gibbo's broken fingers

Edited August 12, 2011 by WotEver

[Ex- Member]

Yes it is. A nice, clean, stabilised 12V coming out of the supplied brick. Not a noisy, spikey, unstabilised up to 15V that you'll find on a boat.

 

Does any of the equipment you have state "Suitable for running on a boat at 12V"? If not, then it isn't.

 

Tony

 

If you read the instruction manuals carefully, I wouldn't mind betting that all of the equipment you have that is powered by a brick also has wording similar to "use of any power supply other than the one supplied with this equipment will invalidate the warranty". That would include a 12V battery being charged by a diesel engine with lots of noisy equipment also tacked onto the same supply.

 

edited because I used one of Gibbo's broken fingers

 

So lat tops shouldn't be run from vehicles

So tv's shouldn't be run from vehicles

So radios shouldn't be run from vehicles

Sat nave shouldn't be run from vehicles

 

What nonsense, manufactures make these type of equipment at 12 volts so they become useful as a mobile piece of equipment as well as used in the home. They are sold as such and advertised as such. You show me any piece of 12 volt equipment that states it's warranty is invalid if used in a recreational vehicle when it is designed and sold for exactly that purpose.

 

That would include a 12V battery being charged by a diesel engine with lots of noisy equipment also tacked onto the same supply.

 

 

Lorries cars tractors combine harvesters etc etc are run by diesel engines, most contain 12 volt equipment somewhere.

 

Does any of the equipment you have state "Suitable for running on a boat at 12V"? If not, then it isn't.

 

YES it is sold for use in recreational vehicles, my TV is advertised for use in boats caravans. My dad radio is, my lap top is.

 

Does any of your 240 volt equipment state suitable for running in a property ????????

 

Blimy

 

 

[Nickhlx]

I think it comes down to the spec.... 12 volts means "very close to 12 volts" - perhaps +/- 0.5 volts.... 14.5 volts will nearly always be found which is some 21% over voltage, even more if equalising...

 

A vehicle supply ( car / boat / bike) is only a "NOMINAL" 12 volts system and is rarely at 12 volts, especially when the vehicle is running, nearer 14.2 volts + numerous spikes, some much lower and some much higher in voltage and of high energy. If you don't believe it, put a 'scope ( storage if poss) on the battery and operate the starter / other items and see the spikes...

 

The only equipment I would connect to a vehicle supply is one which is primarily designed to be connected to a NOMINAL 12 volt supply, and preferably which came with a supplied cigar plug lead, thereby demonstrating its suitability to be run from a NOMINAL 12 volt vehicle supply and/or the manual quotes an acceptable supply voltage range.

 

 

I run radio equipment in cars / boats and the rated supply voltage is usually 11 to 15.5 volts, although I don't start the engine with it connected, as its close to a grand's worth, and I KNOW there are hefty spikes around when the starter motor is operated. It does come with a large ( 1Kg weight) filter which includes a massive choke as well as caps for the RF choking bit, apart from being "bad practice" in radio circles... I lost a charging circuit in a handheld a year back and that was also rated 10-16 volts supply input - must have suffered a spike as the regulated voltage is 14.25 or so.. - It now runs through a filtered and regulated supply at 11 volts and with an in-line choke as well as caps. No trouble since.

 

My Garmin satnav is rated for both 12 and 24 volt systems and the handbook states it can work from a supply of up to 30 odd volts, through its internal regulator / charger - it works down to 8 volts input so I imagine it's actually a 5 volt device, and designed for cars, bikes and lorries.

 

Unless the device is clearly intended to be run off a vehicle supply, either by suitable supplied accessories or the stated voltage input covers the vehicle supply range, it is only a matter of time before problems will (very) likely be suffered.

 

Nick

Edited August 12, 2011 by Nickhlx

[WotEver]

Unless the device is clearly intended to be run off a vehicle supply, either by suitable supplied accessories or the stated voltage input covers the vehicle supply range, it is only a matter of time before problems will (very) likely be suffered.

Absolutely. This is what I've been repeating over and over again to Julynian.

 

Tony

 

What nonsense, manufactures make these type of equipment at 12 volts so they become useful as a mobile piece of equipment as well as used in the home. They are sold as such and advertised as such. You show me any piece of 12 volt equipment that states it's warranty is invalid if used in a recreational vehicle when it is designed and sold for exactly that purpose.

You obviously have a problem with reading comprehension. I shall waste no more time explaining it to you.

[Nickhlx]

Absolutely. This is what I've been repeating over and over again to Julynian.

 

Tony

 

I guess one's opinions will be formed from what experiences you have had / seen and how long you have been around electronics.. People DO have a right to believe what they want...

 

Nick