Limehouse to Teddington

[Tim]

Of course, it only needs one narrowboat to be involved in some sort of incident to get the PLA to review policy and make it more difficult to undertake this fantastic trip.

 

My (fixed) VHF has perfect reception all the way to Brentford.

[carlt]

 

??

If you make a mistake signal E eight times

 

Except in Yorkshire Semaphore, on making a mistake it's:

 

Eeeeeeee...by 'eck!

[WJM]

'Tooting' (sound signals) is the preferred method of communicating simple intentions on the Thames. It is a good idea to keep a printout of them all somewhere near the tiller. They can be complex and hard to remember.

[canaldrifter]

Of course, it only needs one narrowboat to be involved in some sort of incident to get the PLA to review policy and make it more difficult to undertake this fantastic trip.

 

My (fixed) VHF has perfect reception all the way to Brentford.

 

There have been several narrowboats involved in minor incidents over the years. When I was on the MCA committees a few years ago, the PoL rep told us of one arrogant narrowboater who when challenged after passing through a closed bridge arch told the patrol to 'eff off', it was none of their business!

 

Ignorance would have been a better plea.

 

Tone

 

Except in Yorkshire Semaphore, on making a mistake it's:

 

Eeeeeeee...by 'eck!

 

Following closely on a 'naaaah then...'

 

Tone

Edited March 21, 2011 by canaldrifter

[alan_fincher]

Actually in many situations the phone might be better than trying to call VTS especially on a cheap handheld. The built-up area in London can be problematic for low powered transmitters.

We have found at least being able to hear London VTS as rock solid all the way from Limehouse to Brentford.

 

I can't speak for onwards to Teddington, but guess it will probably get harder.

 

Obviously I can't tell with certainty that London VTS could hear us from every point on the Thames, but providing no stronger station is broadcasting over us, it seemed highly likely to me that a full conversation would have been possible almost anywhere from Limehouse to Brentford.

 

I know conditions will vary, as will the sets in use, so I'd not extrapolate it to a general assumption, but generally on the "iffy" bits I think you would be heard, and, further up, things calm down enormously, in my (limited!) experience.

[RichardN]

VTS transmit from an aerial up so high that I suspect you will get good reception on a handheld all the way up the Thames and if I remember right that was the conclusion from a debate a while back here on handhelds v fixed. As you go up higher VTS won't hear your 5W transmission so they prefer you to have a fixed set but even that is not 100% reliable higher up the Thames.

 

The iso lights are interesting. Obviously pay close attention to them but things change, listen on the radio because sometimes the big boys can't make a particular arch but they are really good at getting on the radio and telling VTS. Similarly trip boats tend to tell everybody what they are doing but sometimes in such shorthand that you have to think a bit. As someone else mentioned the working boatmen are generally really really good at what they do and they will look out for you but they do have a schedule to keep and a living to earn. I think the slow moving ones are worse, there is one we call the Battleship Potemkin which is driven well but can really generate a nasty bow wave at quite slow speeds. Oh if you hear there is a cruise ship moving then don't go out of the lock, go to the Grapes instead.

 

I see that Mike's question with a reference to heading for the second arch of Westminster Bridge has a nice twist to it. Nice one Mike. You should have read the document he links to and have a print out in front of you. If you have no access to the printers talk nicely to the Limehouse Lock keepers as they may have some under the counter copies even though it is not officially printed any more.

 

Sound signals: I don't know how much experience you have got so forgive me if I am teaching granny to suck eggs. We have found that the working boatmen on the Thames do use sound signals a lot and they know them. So memorise Phylis's post, get the page from the Waterscape guides with sound signals printed out and paste it up where you can see it. If you are going up on a busy day then get used to counting the number of blasts. We stand there trying to count, agree between ourselves how many and wave as we are never quick enough to toot back. On one of the tideway cruises last year one of the boats in front of us used his tunnel light to reply to a Clipper's horn blast and they ended up having a good chat substituting flashing lights for horn signals so everybody knew what to do - the Clipper made an appreciative comment on the vhf about it. I was thankful that I was a few boats back as I would not have been as quick off the mark with the signals but at least knew what to do.

[canaldrifter]

My late mother (who was a Wren) taught me it once - can't for the life of me remember any of it now.

 

Ah, the old naval reply to "Have you got a fag I could borrow?"

 

"Nah. But I've got a Granny in the Wrens."

 

Tone

[mykaskin]

Sound signals, are, well, sound. Unfortunately not always hearable in the wheelbox of a trip boat unless you have the horn of a tug boat, but I would suggest that in Evo's situation the only 'legal' thing he can do.

 

I would have called the trip boats if I could see a name, but so often you can't until it's too late, so having a radio doesn't always help in such situations. If you knew the river well enough to know the boat's name, you would know that they are waiting for space on Westminster pier, but a radio call would clarify that and give you breathing space as they parted because the other boat would have likely heard the call also. Any boats leaving the pier would have also heard and stayed clear of your path.

 

The beauty of radio is that everyone listening on that frequency hears the call, and the boat that booked the arch may have called back to let you know you were safe to pass.

 

Thankfully when a similar situation happen to me, I had James ("m.t. major") who I could ask what was going on. Once I knew the boat that looked like it wanted to head down river was just floating about I cut across both bows to take the empty and thankfully unbooked (no light flashing) centre arch.

 

Another situation was when we were pushing the tide at Trent Falls at midnight, there are several bends and the Sisson's chart showed the "main" channel heading back to my side of the river. I actually called on 16 as all vessels "should" monitor this, as it happened the Coastguard managed to pick up my call and since the reception was so weak the ensuing conversion finally managed to wake up one of the three coasters heading up river. The coasters didn't snake about as shown, so we were safe. One of the many reasons I don't trust the Sissons Trent charts - but they are handy if you don't know the river.

 

Anyway, enjoy the river, many do it with far less preperation and get away with it. However for my peice of mind I'd like a radio and know how to use it.

 

Cheers,

 

Mike

[Naughty Cal]

Sound signals, are, well, sound. Unfortunately not always hearable in the wheelbox of a trip boat unless you have the horn of a tug boat, but I would suggest that in Evo's situation the only 'legal' thing he can do.

 

I would have called the trip boats if I could see a name, but so often you can't until it's too late, so having a radio doesn't always help in such situations. If you knew the river well enough to know the boat's name, you would know that they are waiting for space on Westminster pier, but a radio call would clarify that and give you breathing space as they parted because the other boat would have likely heard the call also. Any boats leaving the pier would have also heard and stayed clear of your path.

 

The beauty of radio is that everyone listening on that frequency hears the call, and the boat that booked the arch may have called back to let you know you were safe to pass.

 

Thankfully when a similar situation happen to me, I had James ("m.t. major") who I could ask what was going on. Once I knew the boat that looked like it wanted to head down river was just floating about I cut across both bows to take the empty and thankfully unbooked (no light flashing) centre arch.

 

Another situation was when we were pushing the tide at Trent Falls at midnight, there are several bends and the Sisson's chart showed the "main" channel heading back to my side of the river. I actually called on 16 as all vessels "should" monitor this, as it happened the Coastguard managed to pick up my call and since the reception was so weak the ensuing conversion finally managed to wake up one of the three coasters heading up river. The coasters didn't snake about as shown, so we were safe. One of the many reasons I don't trust the Sissons Trent charts - but they are handy if you don't know the river.

 

Anyway, enjoy the river, many do it with far less preperation and get away with it. However for my peice of mind I'd like a radio and know how to use it.

 

Cheers,

 

Mike

 

A decent set of binos are useful for picking up boat names.

 

And buoyage, and wildlife

[RichardN]

A decent set of binos are useful for picking up ............... wildlife

 

That is a terrible suggestion Phylis. Obviously it is a requirement to give Helen Mirren a wave if she is out on her balcony but otherwise do not stare at the wildlife, keep your eyes focussed on where you are going.

Edited March 21, 2011 by RichardN

[Naughty Cal]

That is a terrible suggestion Phylis. Obviously it is a requirement to give Helen Mirren a wave if she is out on her balcony but otherwise do not stare at the wildlife, keep your eyes focussed on where you are going.

 

 

At 30 knots you dont have a choice. Its the navigator whos doing the bird watching

[mykaskin]

Oh if you hear there is a cruise ship moving then don't go out of the lock, go to the Grapes instead.

Why?

 

Jump to 5min 50secs:

 

On one of the tideway cruises last year one of the boats in front of us used his tunnel light to reply to a Clipper's horn blast

 

Thats a good idea.

[RLWP]

spam signature reported

 

Richard

[Keeping Up]

There have been several narrowboats involved in minor incidents over the years. When I was on the MCA committees a few years ago, the PoL rep told us of one arrogant narrowboater who when challenged after passing through a closed bridge arch told the patrol to 'eff off', it was none of their business!

 

Followers of this thread might find it interesting to read this news item from the PLA website, about a "Near miss" that happened back in November. The narrowboat steerer has been strongly criticised for not knowing that he could safely pass through an UNMARKED arch of Blackfriars Bridge. The PLA have even reacted by issuing a special Notice to Mariners (number 19 of 2010) to clarify that "No lights or signs showing – an arch available for navigation by vessels when height of tide, draft, air draft and good seamanship permit"

 

 

I have been in communication with the PLA during the last few weeks, to ask them how a steerer is supposed to know whether an unmarked arch - especially if it is adjacent to the bank - has suitable depth, and is free from other obstructions such as a pier on its far side. I challenged them to point to any of their publications or other guidance would give this information (other than buying either a full set of charts or the Mariner's Guide to Bridges which are quite expensive, so it is frankly unrealistic to expect a narrow-boater to buy them). The PLA Deputy Harbourmaster has been very good at responding to my emails, taking my various points seriously, and he conceded that there is insufficient guidance on this issue as well as a few others such as "what action should you take when the isophase light flashes on the only non-bankside arch of a bridge such as London Bridge (if you took the North arch would you ground on the foreshore or might you run slap-bang into Swan Lane Pier? What is the official advice there?)

 

 

As well as the main PLA website, the Deputy Harbourmaster also pointed me to their recreational users' website which contains some useful information (as well as a lot of useless sketches). Their video is quite useful (although it does appear top have a "deliberate mistake" near the end, in which their cartoon boat actually takes the wrong arch of a bridge!

 

He also asked me to help publicise these sites here (which I am therefore now doing; I may post something in another section of the forum later as this post will probably get lost before long). He has said that he intends to work with BW to try to get some improved guidance inserted into their Tideway handbook, and will be improving the PLA recreational users website by a number of features such as an interactive quiz which can pose questions such as these.

[Evo]

Excellent Vid Mike and great info Keeping Up

 

 

Oh yeah....whats the answer to the question..???

Edited March 21, 2011 by Evo

[RichardN]

Followers of this thread might find it interesting to read this news item from the PLA website, about a "Near miss" that happened back in November. The narrowboat steerer has been strongly criticised for not knowing that he could safely pass through an UNMARKED arch of Blackfriars Bridge. The PLA have even reacted by issuing a special Notice to Mariners (number 19 of 2010) to clarify that "No lights or signs showing – an arch available for navigation by vessels when height of tide, draft, air draft and good seamanship permit"

 

 

I have been in communication with the PLA during the last few weeks, to ask them how a steerer is supposed to know whether an unmarked arch - especially if it is adjacent to the bank - has suitable depth, and is free from other obstructions such as a pier on its far side. I challenged them to point to any of their publications or other guidance would give this information (other than buying either a full set of charts or the Mariner's Guide to Bridges which are quite expensive, so it is frankly unrealistic to expect a narrow-boater to buy them). The PLA Deputy Harbourmaster has been very good at responding to my emails, taking my various points seriously, and he conceded that there is insufficient guidance on this issue as well as a few others such as "what action should you take when the isophase light flashes on the only non-bankside arch of a bridge such as London Bridge (if you took the North arch would you ground on the foreshore or might you run slap-bang into Swan Lane Pier? What is the official advice there?)

 

 

As well as the main PLA website, the Deputy Harbourmaster also pointed me to their recreational users' website which contains some useful information (as well as a lot of useless sketches). Their video is quite useful (although it does appear top have a "deliberate mistake" near the end, in which their cartoon boat actually takes the wrong arch of a bridge!

 

He also asked me to help publicise these sites here (which I am therefore now doing; I may post something in another section of the forum later as this post will probably get lost before long). He has said that he intends to work with BW to try to get some improved guidance inserted into their Tideway handbook, and will be improving the PLA recreational users website by a number of features such as an interactive quiz which can pose questions such as these.

 

Scary stuff, thank you for the link. We would not have gone through an unmarked arch on a dropping tide, I had seen the PLA notice come through on my rss feed but the implication had not really sunk in till I followed your link to the press release. I am sure the simple guidelines eg on their map make no mention of going through an unmarked arch, nor does the IWA guide or the SPCC guide or the BW guide.

 

It sounds like something that would be classed as a near miss so needs some attention but if that had been us then I would be feeling hard done by. It is good to hear that you are talking to I assume David Phillips.

[carlt]

[canaldrifter]

 

Why do you post this crap image stuff Carl? Any of us could do that. Do you really think it is helpful or funny? I doubt many others do.

 

I think it might demonstrate your genuine lack of grasp of the subjects being discussed.

 

Tone

[carlt]

Why do you post this crap image stuff Carl? Any of us could do that. Do you really think it is helpful or funny? I doubt many others do.

 

I think it might demonstrate your genuine lack of grasp of the subjects being discussed.

 

Tone

Why do you post such nasty word stuff? Any of us could do that. Do you think it is helpful or funny? I doubt many others do.

 

There was no malice in my post, just mild humour, along the same lines as MJG's semaphore image, which you posted a laughter smiley, in response.

 

I think that might demonstrate a petty vindictiveness, aimed specifically at me.

 

For what it's worth I passed my first VHF certificate, in the 80s, retaking it when DSC was introduced.

[canaldrifter]

 

For what it's worth I passed my first VHF certificate, in the 80s, retaking it when DSC was introduced.

 

Well bully for you.

 

Tone

[carlt]

Well bully for you.

 

Tone

Yes indeed.

 

It demonstrates that I actually made the effort to learn about the subject we are discussing, rather than making ill educated, ignorant comments and resorting to yet more attempts to belittle someone, to cover up your lack of knowledge.

[saltysplash]

Yes indeed.

 

It demonstrates that I actually made the effort to learn about the subject we are discussing, rather than making ill educated, ignorant comments and resorting to yet more attempts to belittle someone, to cover up your lack of knowledge.

 

 

Hear him

[canaldrifter]

Yes indeed.

 

It demonstrates that I actually made the effort to learn about the subject we are discussing, rather than making ill educated, ignorant comments and resorting to yet more attempts to belittle someone, to cover up your lack of knowledge.

 

I'm questioning why you feel a need to post pretty pictures instead of making sensible comments, or why you feel qualified to suggest that I'm trying to cover up for lack of knowledge or experience.

 

The semaphore post was totally in context, even with a quote to which it was relevant. Yours wasn't and added nowt constructive or humorous to the thread in my opinion, though others may fall about.... possibly.

 

Oh... and by the way.... you know little of my past and what my nautical qualifications are, so don't push that angle too far.

 

Meanwhile, it seems that to have VHF where it is relevant on inland waters is a good idea. To have qualification to use it is a bonus if you can afford the extortionate cost of a course. But it probably isn't necessary to be qualified to maintain a listening watch. And it is doubtful if the authorities will prosecute you for using it unless you use it foolishly.

 

Is that an ill educated, ignorant comment?

 

 

Tone

[carlt]

I'm questioning why you feel a need to post pretty pictures instead of making sensible comments, or why you feel qualified to suggest that I'm trying to cover up for lack of knowledge or experience.

 

 

You may not have noticed but I stopped bothering to make sensible comments, on this thread, some time ago because it is obvious that there are those that believe it is fine to flout both the law and others' safety and no amount of "sensible comment" will change their minds.

 

Maintaining a listening watch is pretty pointless, if you have a huge barge bearing down on you and you do not know the protocol, to actually make your intentions clear, or find out the intentions of the skipper, of the barge.

 

You may be an old sea dog and so, have somehow absorbed the correct radio protocols (though you don't ever demonstrate any great knowledge of seamanship so your nautical credentials are unclear) but recommending to others that they don't need to learn, the correct way to operate a radio is just plain irresponsible.

 

Just because you feel able to 'fly by the seat of your pants' doesn't mean others can.

 

Operating a radio, in the event of an emergency, is not as straightforward as you make out and receiving the correct training will help someone stay calm, relay the correct information, in the correct manner and make the chances of a successful rescue far more likely.

 

If the price of that is £100 and a day spent in a classroom then I think it is well worth it.

 

Not only that but I'm surprised that the forum admin are okay, with you encouraging others to break the law.

 

As I said, none of this will convince you, or Evo, that it is best to get the training so here's a chimp on a pushbike:

[canaldrifter]

You may not have noticed but I stopped bothering to make sensible comments, on this thread, some time ago because it is obvious that there are those that believe it is fine to flout both the law and others' safety and no amount of "sensible comment" will change their minds.

 

Maintaining a listening watch is pretty pointless, if you have a huge barge bearing down on you and you do not know the protocol, to actually make your intentions clear, or find out the intentions of the skipper, of the barge.

 

You may be an old sea dog and so, have somehow absorbed the correct radio protocols (though you don't ever demonstrate any great knowledge of seamanship so your nautical credentials are unclear) but recommending to others that they don't need to learn, the correct way to operate a radio is just plain irresponsible.

 

Just because you feel able to 'fly by the seat of your pants' doesn't mean others can.

 

Operating a radio, in the event of an emergency, is not as straightforward as you make out and receiving the correct training will help someone stay calm, relay the correct information, in the correct manner and make the chances of a successful rescue far more likely.

 

If the price of that is £100 and a day spent in a classroom then I think it is well worth it.

 

Not only that but I'm surprised that the forum admin are okay, with you encouraging others to break the law.

 

As I said, none of this will convince you, or Evo, that it is best to get the training so here's a chimp on a pushbike:

 

Bless....

 

Tone