Moorings Management Proposals

[romarni123]

It's not about whether it's asking too much - it's about whether it's necessary or reasonable to enforce this.

 

It's not necessary because it makes no difference to BW how fast the boats move along the rivers, as long as they do move an appropriate distance every two weeks. The CC guidelines define a 'place' in an urban area as a district of the town. In London, you're in a new district every mile or two. They could easily define 30 odd 'places' along that route simply by naming them.

 

It's not reasonable because it will make life harder for boaters who commute to work. It puts them out of range of season tickets, which adds enormously to transport costs in an area where transport is already expensive.

 

It's also actively counter-productive. Boaters will be covering the length of the river 4-5 times a year instead of just once, making it more congested for visiting traffic but not freeing up any extra mooring spaces for them.

 

I do think there's a problem they need to tackle. I think they're going about it in an unnecessarily vindictive way, which may cause them serious trouble should this go to court.

But you get a licence to cc on the understanding that you dont stay in one place for work /school thats what a mooring is for.(ok not the exact words but I am sure you get my drift)

[DeanS]

But you get a licence to cc on the understanding that you dont stay in one place for work /school thats what a mooring is for.(ok not the exact words but I am sure you get my drift)

 

At the same time, if I was travelling to an area to visit/meet you, but my boat arrived early, and you were travelling from elsewhere and arrived after I had been waiting 14days, we would have to enjoy a quick cup of coffee before I'd have to dart off in the direction you've just come from...because I wouldnt be allowed to go the way I just came from. That seems silly in an adult world.

Edited February 25, 2011 by DeanS

[ymu]

But you get a licence to cc on the understanding that you dont stay in one place for work /school thats what a mooring is for.(ok not the exact words but I am sure you get my drift)

Yes. And, as I have said, it is entirely possible to cruise the length of the L&S in a year without breaking the guidelines. If you did it in a year, you would spend enough time in the various tube zones or close to a particular overland station to be able to buy quarterly season tickets. Making them do the entire length 5 times over means they will have to buy much more expensive tickets.

 

Travel costs are one of the biggest extra expenses incurred by a CCer who needs to commute to work, because you can't get season tickets - all your train/bus travel is at full price, or with the much more marginal savings offered by a weekly pass.

[romarni123]

At the same time, if I was travelling to an area to visit/meet you, but my boat arrived early, and you were travelling from elsewhere and arrived after I had been waiting 14days, we would have to enjoy a quick cup of coffee before I'd have to dart off in the direction you've just come from...because I wouldnt be allowed to go the way I just came from. That seems silly in an adult world.

Nah we would most likely just say bollox to BW i aint come all this way for nothing.

[DeanS]

Nah we would most likely just say bollox to BW i aint come all this way for nothing.

 

easy for you to say. You just arrived. Im the one who would get ticketed..lol.

[romarni123]

Yes. And, as I have said, it is entirely possible to cruise the length of the L&S in a year without breaking the guidelines. If you did it in a year, you would spend enough time in the various tube zones or close to a particular overland station to be able to buy quarterly season tickets. Making them do the entire length 5 times over means they will have to buy much more expensive tickets.

 

Travel costs are one of the biggest extra expenses incurred by a CCer who needs to commute to work, because you can't get season tickets - all your train/bus travel is at full price, or with the much more marginal savings offered by a weekly pass.

So my question is are people just rocking up to a place that makes it easier to get to work /tube and not moving because it would then be more of a pain or are all the boats on cc licences moving up and down the whole river on a regular basis.I dont think that if the boats are moving up and down as in the guidelines that there would be a problem and BW would have no reason to to change anything,but if you are getting boats that are not moving and staying in one place for vast amounts of time then BW are going to start moving the goal posts.

[ymu]

So my question is are people just rocking up to a place that makes it easier to get to work /tube and not moving because it would then be more of a pain or are all the boats on cc licences moving up and down the whole river on a regular basis.I dont think that if the boats are moving up and down as in the guidelines that there would be a problem and BW would have no reason to to change anything,but if you are getting boats that are not moving and staying in one place for vast amounts of time then BW are going to start moving the goal posts.

The reasons they are taking the action are clearly set out in the documents which have been posted.

 

What I have said is nothing to do with whether or not there is a problem to be solved (there is, as far as I can tell from the information provided).

[canaldrifter]

By imposing a 61 day annual mooring limit within the borders of a 'neighbourhood' the boundaries of which BW itself has decided upon without consultation, is way outside its powers under the 1995 BWB Act.

 

Yes, there is a problem with continuous moorers on the L&S and elsewhere. Yes, BW has to deal with it, but inventing new unenforceable legislation is not the way to shift 'em.

 

The powers to deal with the problem of overstayers are already there, in the Act, on the '14 day max in one 'place' rule'.

 

The emphasis should be on how to enforce this within the powers of the Act.

 

With these new proposals, Sally Ash is empire building..... yet again.

 

I repeat, the great danger is that if boaters support this scheme, or passively do not object to it, it will set a precedent that could result in BW dividing the whole system up into neighbourhoods with similar rules that could then be incorporated in a new Act of Parliament.

 

Is that what we want?

 

Be careful what you wish for.

 

Tone

[Sven...]

It seems nobody has yet commented on this particular statement in the new proposals:

 

"By cruising continuously throughout the plan area, keeping to the 14 day limits and spending an equal amount of total time in each of the six neighbourhoods across a year, it is possible to remain in the plan area for the whole period of the licence without incurring any charges."

 

To me this seems to imply that by travelling only up and down the Lee and Stort a few times per year, no extra charges are incurred. In other words, a CCer will not be required to ever leave that area. That is perhaps an interesting clarification.

[ymu]

There is absolutely nothing in the 1995 Act or the BW guidance that says you have to travel more than x% of the network before returning anywhere. I'd say two rivers running through London is a pretty damn significant part of the network, so there's no problem CCing exclusively on that stretch, as long as you obey the rules.

 

All this proposal does is make it harder to obey the rules, and incurs a massive cost for BW which they will never, ever make back in fines. They've identified 160 problem boats, who are unlikely to agree to pay the equivalent of £7,300/year for an unserviced mooring (or £14,600/year if they overstay instead of book) - and they won't get many visitors paying that to overstay because they'll all have canal licences and no reason to want to stay if the cost is that huge.

 

It's an idiotic proposal, put together by people who know nothing about boating. Oh look, we have a financial crisis on our hands, let's drive a few more licence-payers off our waters. The shiny boats who don't like travellers won't mind at all when we have to put their licence fees up again.

Edited February 25, 2011 by ymu

[romarni123]

It seems nobody has yet commented on this particular statement in the new proposals:

 

"By cruising continuously throughout the plan area, keeping to the 14 day limits and spending an equal amount of total time in each of the six neighbourhoods across a year, it is possible to remain in the plan area for the whole period of the licence without incurring any charges."

 

To me this seems to imply that by travelling only up and down the Lee and Stort a few times per year, no extra charges are incurred. In other words, a CCer will not be required to ever leave that area. That is perhaps an interesting clarification.

Thats why I thought it was a good idea.If they did the same in the area I live using the same distance as the Lee/Stort I would always be in the area I want to be without breaking any rules/reg/guidelines and not having BW knocking.

[canaldrifter]

Boating in London during the Olympic Games

 

21st Feb 2011

 

Boaters interested in visiting London during the 2012 Olympic Games will be able to pre-book British Waterways’ visitor moorings more than a year in advance when a when a web-based booking system for visitor moorings goes live in April 2011 to coincide with ticket applications for the Games themselves.

 

Pre-booked moorings will be available at key locations across London. These are likely to include simple towpath moorings on the Capital’s canals and River Lee as well as both unserviced and more expensive serviced berths in Docklands.

 

Research conducted at the end of last year suggests that there will be strong demand for moorings in London during the Olympic summer and well over 500 people have already registered to receive further information about securing visitor moorings.

 

Sally Ash, head of boating at British Waterways, comments: “We are looking forward to welcoming visiting boats to London during summer 2012 and want to make sure the waterways are right at the heart of the Olympic party. Our canals, rivers and docks are perfect bases to discover the capital, with many also having easy access to the Olympic Park.”

 

http://www.waterscape.com/features-and-articles/news/2989/boating-in-london-during-the-olympic-games

 

Tone

Edited February 25, 2011 by canaldrifter

[Neil TNC]

Oh no you might have given them another idea now

 

The idea has already been mooted, it would cost peanuts to fit a GPS tracker to narrowboats. The technology is already there and used in e-tolling on many motorways and road structures in the world (including the UK)

[romarni123]

http://www.waterscape.com/features-and-articles/news/2989/boating-in-london-during-the-olympic-games

 

Tone

Reading between the lines. Sally Ash would only like the really nice boats to moor for the olympics as it will look much better on the news than rakes of liveabords.

[ymu]

Well, we can't have any poor people in sight, now can we.

 

The BBC reported incessantly on the people who were made homeless to make way for the Beijing Olympics (omitting to mention the financial compensation, obv). They conveniently forgot to mention how many people were being displaced at the 2012 Olympic site.

 

Some well-timed press releases might be in order, when the boaters concerned get their ducks in a row.

[romarni123]

Well, we can't have any poor people in sight, now can we.

 

The BBC reported incessantly on the people who were made homeless to make way for the Beijing Olympics (omitting to mention the financial compensation, obv). They conveniently forgot to mention how many people were being displaced at the 2012 Olympic site.

 

Some well-timed press releases might be in order, when the boaters concerned get their ducks in a row.

 

I might turn up there myself Then if I were them I would time it so I was in a prime position to moor and had complied with the new rules and when the powers that be turn up wanting me to move cause my boat dont fit their image of the waterways I would be protesting to all who could hear including the press how I am sticking to the regs to the letter but am still being forced to move.But people can only take the high ground if they are beyond reproach.

[mayalld]

By imposing a 61 day annual mooring limit within the borders of a 'neighbourhood' the boundaries of which BW itself has decided upon without consultation, is way outside its powers under the 1995 BWB Act.

 

 

Yes, but that would be because it isn't only using its powers under the 1995 Act.

 

It is also using its powers under the 1962 Transport Act.

[sebrof]

So, take them to court. Prove them wrong, and force them to stop imposing the rules.

 

Of course you won't. You know they would win.

 

No I don't, Mr Mayall. Why do you think the court would allow them to act unreasonably?

 

The whole point of judicial reviews is to ensure that organisations with statutory powers behave themselves.

 

Use of the waterway [s43(8) Transport Act 1962]

 

Sorry, Mr Mayall, that's already covered by the licence fee. Now stop dissembling and explain what additional services are rendered to CCs that are NOT covered by the licence fee.

 

Take as long as you want.

 

Freedom, what freedom? is this a free country? Your way of saying it is like saying we live in a democracy, but there is no democracy, only a predisposition towards a democracy, but not a democracy, and at the same time there is a predisposition towards freedom, but there isnt freedom. Freedom is an illusion. Struggle must be maintained at all times to ensure that at least humans have dignified space and dignified movement and are not trampled upon by the state, its proponents, and its discontents (such as you or BW.)

 

Perleeeeeeeeeeeease.

 

For a moment you made me feel sympathy for Mr Mayall.

[fender]

 

Perleeeeeeeeeeeease.

 

For a moment you made me feel sympathy for Mr Mayall.

 

Well it didnt quite work did it - I had hoped that someone would find an affinity with Mr Mayall!

[canaldrifter]

Yes, but that would be because it isn't only using its powers under the 1995 Act.

 

It is also using its powers under the 1962 Transport Act.

 

Will you stop giving yourself green points? It is beginning to look like masturbation.

 

Tone

 

Well it didnt quite work did it - I had hoped that someone would find an affinity with Mr Mayall!

 

Actually I quite like him for his alternative pedantry views, although we have yet to meet. When we do, that is going to be one hell of an interesting banter....

 

Tone

[carlt]

although we have yet to meet.

I thought you were his Dad! (and Phylis' Grandad)

[matty40s]

Research conducted at the end of last year suggests that there will be strong demand for moorings in London during the Olympic summer and well over 500 people have already registered to receive further information about securing visitor moorings.

 

 

Of course 500 people did, probably the majority were people already down here wanting more information on how BW is going to make life more difficult and expensive next year. I registered, purely to find out what was happening, and where the no go zones were going to be. I can see a great big lime green elephant next year with very few boats coming into London, and the majority going the other way.

[sueb]

Research conducted at the end of last year suggests that there will be strong demand for moorings in London during the Olympic summer and well over 500 people have already registered to receive further information about securing visitor moorings.

 

 

Of course 500 people did, probably the majority were people already down here wanting more information on how BW is going to make life more difficult and expensive next year. I registered, purely to find out what was happening, and where the no go zones were going to be. I can see a great big lime green elephant next year with very few boats coming into London, and the majority going the other way.

You're right. I registered but have no intention of going. BW couldn't understand that when they got a lot of interest in a mooring it didn't mean that a lot of people wanted that mooring. I told them I often looked at online moorings that caught my eye but I had no intention of taking one. Do people do that? was their comment?

Sue

[Lady Muck]

You're right. I registered but have no intention of going. BW couldn't understand that when they got a lot of interest in a mooring it didn't mean that a lot of people wanted that mooring. I told them I often looked at online moorings that caught my eye but I had no intention of taking one. Do people do that? was their comment?

Sue

 

 

I think that both of you are absolutely correct. I don't think this huge influx of boats will happen. The whole river will be locked down I reckon, who is going to want to be stuck on the Lower Lee for three weeks while it goes on? It's the main reason we're going away, if we don't we'll be stuck on a very short canal.

[matty40s]

Come to london boaters meeting on sat 26 feb 1pm st michael & all angels church hall, lavender grove E8 3LR and sign up to mailing list london@lilo.org.uk for more info.

 

 

Just bumping this one up to top, if anyone needs a lift, I will be going from Tottenham Marshes car park at about 12.30, text me on zero 792two triple 8 two 62.