restoration or replica?

[FadeToScarlet]

A boat that is built, after burning the original (before taking lines), using very few of the salvageable bits, incorrect materials, wrong measurements but the correct methods...is a "Raymond"

 

*ahem*

 

 

I certainly had nothing to do with this.

[carlt]

No offence meant.

[FadeToScarlet]

No offence meant.

 

Did you see the boat's name?

[carlt]

Did you see the boat's name?

Yes I did, hence the blinking smiley (though a "rubbing the eyes incredulously" smiley might have been more appropriate).

[scrumpylurcher]

Raymond was drydocked last weekend and the additional "O" has finally been removed, I was quite surprised how long it has lasted.

Surely the major problem is the way the owners of these boats make totally unfounded claims about what there boats are, and this to a gullible public.

[carlt]

Raymond was drydocked last weekend and the additional "O" has finally been removed, I was quite surprised how long it has lasted.

Surely the major problem is the way the owners of these boats make totally unfounded claims about what there boats are, and this to a gullible public.

Yes I agree.

 

My initial objections to Raymond and it's accuracy of replication are pretty pointless, now. What's done is done and there will never be the money or will to undo, redo it properly.

 

However the repeated claims of "restoration" or even "replication" are just plain silly, to anyone with the slightest knowledge of Nursers, wooden narrow boats and their construction.

[Priston]

Interesting to note the Stanley Mann case, judgement given today

 

"Not so vintage? Battle of the racing Bentley

 

 

A vintage Bentley similar to the model that twice won the Le Mans 24-hour race is at the centre of a High Court battle.

 

An American lawyer is suing a Hertfordshire classic car dealer over the restored Speed Six she bought for £430,000.

 

Mercedes Travis Brewer claims Stanley Mann wrongly told her the vehicle had been restored with original and authentic engine and components.

 

The Speed Six, made between 1926 and 1930, was Bentley's most successful racer and won Le Mans in 1929 and 1930. A valuation by Bentley Drivers Club Ltd priced such a model at £550,000.

 

But Ms Brewer, who bought the car in 2007, says that when she put the car in for auction at Bonhams in 2008, it was valued at £300,000 to £350,000.

 

She says it was discovered that the engine was only a 1927 6.5-litre Bentley modified to look like a Speed Six. Parts of the chassis, wheelbase, petrol pump, steering drop arm and gearbox were also not authentic, she adds.

 

She says Mr Mann, head of Stanley Mann Racing of Radlett, "knew the actual provenance of the engine ... as he personally had acquired it and installed it". She is claiming unspecified damages for "misrepresentation and/or breach of warranty", plus just under £95,000 she paid to the hire purchase company, and interest.

 

But Mr Mann, whose firm describes itself as "the world's leading vintage Bentley specialists", rejects her claims and insists he acted in good faith: "I built the car for myself in the late Seventies and I love that car. For 18 months she had nothing but fun with it. Then she decided to sell it and the valuation she got didn't reach the price she wanted.

 

"She then comes flying back to me. I offered her her money back but she wants more and she wants interest. I would have loved to take the car back. I built it for myself, not anyone else." The case is due to start next week.

 

In 1930 Bentley chairman Woolf Barnato bet £100 he could drive a Speed Six from the Carlton Hotel, Cannes, to his London club before the train could reach Calais. He won by four minutes - but was fined by the French authorities for racing on public roads"

[Speedwheel]

 

Historic restoration - the action or process of accurately revealing, recovering or representing the state of an historic artefact, as it appeared at a particular period in its history, while protecting its heritage value. Work is often performed to reverse decay, or alterations made to the artefact after its initial construction.

 

This particular point is one that is so often misunderstood. Resortation does not have to be back to original condition and by doing so can often remove much of the history that makes something important in the first place.

Edited October 18, 2010 by Speedwheel

[Chalky]

I did get tempted by a Lotus 912 engine over the weekend. I've seen a Lotus engine in a Midget before

 

I once saw a Jag 5.3 V12 fitted to an MGB. Looked great, but the B couldn't manage a 1.8 properly in the wet. Used to handle like a barge...

[pete harrison]

Yes I agree.

 

My initial objections to Raymond and it's accuracy of replication are pretty pointless, now. What's done is done and there will never be the money or will to undo, redo it properly.

 

However the repeated claims of "restoration" or even "replication" are just plain silly, to anyone with the slightest knowledge of Nursers, wooden narrow boats and their construction.

 

"restoration" or even "replication"

 

This was one 'party line' I was not prepared to tow when I was a steerer for Friends of RAYMOND. I will not perpetuate anything about the current RAYMOND being the same boat as the 1958 RAYMOND, or that the original was the subject of a renovation, restoration or rebuild. I always described the current RAYMOND as a wooden butty built in 2000 that has taken the identity, some ironwork and the livery of the last wooden narrow butty built for trade.

 

It is a sad fact that the rebuilding of the original RAYMOND was a missed opportunity, and its demise was the result of a catalogue of failures made by canal enthusiasts who had little if any knowledge of wooden narrow boats.

 

I am not trying to defend the membership (past or present) of Friends of RAYMOND but most only tell RAYMOND's tale as they have been told, or understood it. I have generally found, and in common with other multi-user working boat organisations, that the members are mostly canal enthusiasts with only a superficial knowledge of 'their' boats let alone working narrow boats in general and are more than happy to believe the first thing they are told by 'knowledgeable' people on the towpath - or worse what is published on the internet !

Edited October 19, 2010 by pete harrison

[DandV]

Here in new Zealand we have a significant active classic boating fleet with many of the boats over 100 years old. We also have the same debates over restoration and replication.

It is simply not possible to be both, active and fully restored to “as built” using only original materials.

Individual boats evolve over time.

Of the gaff rigged yachts now actively racing only one I know of has not at some stage sported a Bermudan rig. Hemp cordage is virtually unobtainable and maintenance of cotton sails prohibitive to the rationed resources of the boats owners. However the owners have restored the essential features to as close as is practicable to original to replicate the experiences of the original crews. The sail plan and rigging are faithful replicas of the “as built” configurations without winches. Hulls and spars are all wood. However some modern features are fitted for safety and environmental reasons. Marine radio is fitted and toilets with holding tanks, however the veteran yachts are exempted by yacht racing safety authorities from having safety lines, (fences) around the decks.

An absolute priority is to keep these boats active doing what they were designed to do, and to this end the Classic Yacht Association has a calendar of about thirty racing days a year summer and winter and including some overnight voyages.

My own view there is a place for some inactive museum craft, but if a historic craft can be restored to become operational in close to original conditions, then being kept operational with the inevitable compromises in authenticity is far preferable to a static exhibit.

 

Cheers Don

[Pluto]

Twelve years ago I wrote a report for the Yorkshire Waterways Museum on options for their compartment tug Wheldale.

The following glossary is taken from the report:

 

Preservation: The maintainance of an object in its original or ‘as worked’ condition, and/or restoring it under controlled conditions to record, maintain or rediscover associated skills.

 

Conservation: The stabilisation of an object so that its condition is less likely to deteriorate.

 

Restoration: The improvement of the condition of an object under controlled conditions, ensuring that all actions are recorded and, as far as possible, reversible.

 

Replication: The use of old methods to build a new object, similar in design to an old one, under controlled conditions, such that the techniques and craft associated with these methods can be recorded.

 

Reproduction: The use of modern methods and materials to produce an object, similar in basic design to an old one, which can be routinely operated safely, and which will enable the techniques and craft of operating such an object to be recorded.

 

I then went on to discuss various possibilities of how to look after Wheldale:

 

When preserving an industrial object, there are three main possibilities which should be considered. The adoption of one of these criteria will then dictate the methods to be used in

preservation.

I: To conserve the object as an example of its type. Today, this would mean keeping the object in its ‘as worked’ condition, just as it had finished working. Previously the object may have been returned to its original, ‘as built’ condition.

2: To maintain the object, using traditional materials and methods, in order to preserve and record the traditional skills used in maintenance and operation, as well as preserving the object itself in a condition similar to that when in use.

3: To maintain the object, using modern methods and materials, in such a way as to be able to operate the object regularly and safely, and thus to be able to reserve the traditional skills of operation.

 

With any restoration/conservation/replication project, it is important to decide exactly what your aim is before starting work, and thus to be able to justify what you are doing. In my time as an engineer involved in restoring a wide variety of industrial machinery, I developed the Three Rs; work had to be recorded, reversible - and right!

[Chertsey]

This particular point is one that is so often misunderstood. Resortation does not have to be back to original condition and by doing so can often remove much of the history that makes something important in the first place.

Hear hear. (Here) I would hate to take a 'year zero' approach that wiped out the boat's history.

[Natalie Graham]

 

However the repeated claims of "restoration" or even "replication" are just plain silly, to anyone with the slightest knowledge of Nursers, wooden narrow boats and their construction.

 

Or just with eyes and a photo of the original.

 

 

[Chris Pink]

 

 

My initial objections to Raymond and it's accuracy of replication are pretty pointless, now. What's done is done and there will never be the money or will to undo, redo it properly.

 

 

 

So what's the story with Raymond? I've heard this opinion a few times - how did the rebuild differ from the original?

 

Is there a 'story of Raymond' (from either side of the debate) published anywhere?

[Québec]

So what's the story with Raymond? I've heard this opinion a few times - how did the rebuild differ from the original?

 

Is there a 'story of Raymond' (from either side of the debate) published anywhere?

 

Came across this...which would appear to be one side of the story

http://home.freeuk.com/braunston/Raymond/