Which Way?

[davidk65]

Happy New Year to One and All

 

What is the correct meaning of of the expression "upstream" and "downstream", and how does one determine which is which?

 

 

DavidK

[AJLintern]

On a river, upstream is towards the source, downstream is the opposite. On a canal, i'd imagine upstream would be towards the summit level

[ChrisPy]

Surely these terms are not applicable to conventional canals, only to rivers and 'navigations' where rivers have been canalised. If there's no flow there's no 'stream'.

[John Orentas]

It would be hard to name a canal that does not have a flow, even the rare ones without locks will still have a feeder, the water will flow from there.

[DHutch]

All canals have atlease some flow, think of all the water going over the wier/spillway at locks.

- Without a flow the locks wouldnt work, they'd just empty to pound above!

 

Maybe you need to spend a few days on the Llangollen Chris!

 

 

Daniel

[rog guiver]

I'm with Chris.

 

If you take the GU between Napton and Warwick, without the pumps you "could" suggest that the canal flow is "downstream" towards Warwick (and then into the Avon). BUT if the level sensors in each pound were set to a very fine tolerance THEN it would only need the filling of a dry dock at the Napton end to start all the back-pumping at each lock. Then the flow would be in the other direction.

 

I appreciate the Llangollen case, but for me "upstream" and "downstream" are river/stream terms!

 

So sayeth the Oxford dictionary

[John Orentas]

I'm with Chris.

 

If you take the GU between Napton and Warwick, without the pumps you "could" suggest that the canal flow is "downstream" towards Warwick (and then into the Avon). BUT if the level sensors in each pound were set to a very fine tolerance THEN it would only need the filling of a dry dock at the Napton end to start all the back-pumping at each lock. Then the flow would be in the other direction.

 

I appreciate the Llangollen case, but for me "upstream" and "downstream" are river/stream terms!

 

So sayeth the Oxford dictionary

 

 

Don't get much of that Rog, I think the flow is always downstream it's called gravity or something like that. People have been using upstream and downstream ever since the canals were built.

[Supermalc]

Don't get much of that Rog, I think the flow is always downstream it's called gravity or something like that. People have been using upstream and downstream ever since the canals were built.

 

Have to agree with John on this one. Water flows from a higher level to a lower level, be it on canals, rivers, dykes, navigatons etc. etc.

 

The only time this is wrong is when man has intervened with pumps.

 

This question came up with someone last year on the Fosse Dyke, as water flows down to Boston in the Witham, and down to the Trent in the Fosse Dyke. The Witham flows into the Brayford pool, which feeds the Witham to Boston, and the Fosse Dyke to Torksey, but when the level is raised by pumping water from the Trent into the Fosse Dyke, this canal then flows 'upstream'.

 

"Don't quote me" on this (as my friend used to say) and I am trying to find the official history of the canal and waterways. Not as simple as it sounds, as there are departments for the waterways, as well as BW and EA (who always seem to be at war as far as the Witham is concerned).

 

The trouble is, people who should know tell you something.......which later turns out to be incorrect. Makes fact finding difficult at times, as well as making you appear a fool...

Edited January 5, 2006 by Supermalc

[roger]

OK, on reading about this upstream/downstream stuuf, I hope here's a good question for all - which way does the water flow on summit levels? That way or the other way? Braunston or the Leicester or Oxford summits for example - which way is the water flowing? Both ways, neither way, one way? I would think at Braunston, as a quite short summit level, it depends on which locks are being used and how often but can imagine the same applies to the other summit levels.

 

Taking it further, is one going 'upstream' or 'downstream' through Braunston Tunnel????

Edited January 8, 2006 by roger

[davidk65]

Thanks to all who responded to my question.

The point behind it was that we are planning a trip on the Thames and lacking river experience I kept coming across the expression. Now I know the answer (I think).

What an interesting topic it turned out to be.

Armed with the information you have given me, I have just posted a topic on cruising the Thames which we intend to do later this year.

 

Many thanks.

[John Orentas]

OK, on reading about this upstream/downstream stuuf, I hope here's a good question for all - which way does the water flow on summit levels? That way or the other way? Braunston or the Leicester or Oxford summits for example - which way is the water flowing? Both ways, neither way, one way? I would think at Braunston, as a quite short summit level, it depends on which locks are being used and how often but can imagine the same applies to the other summit levels.

 

Taking it further, is one going 'upstream' or 'downstream' through Braunston Tunnel????

 

 

Isn't all this just common sense, all canals by definition are fed at the summit level and that water will be used in either direction. I occasionally take passengers on the summit level of the Rochdale, I always tell people if you spit into the water there is a 50 /50 chance of it ending up in the Irish sea via the Mersey or the in North Sea via the Humber. Children and even some women seem to grasp the concept.

[Paula]

Children and even some women seem to grasp the concept.

 

How rude !!!!!

 

Paula XXX

[cheshire~rose]

How rude !!!!!

 

Well what else can be expected?

So the saying goes... the difference between the men and the boys is the price of their toys... some have replaced their radio controlled power boat for a vessel of significantly bigger proportions thats all!

Where would they be without their crew though?

[Pirate]

Well what else can be expected?

So the saying goes... the difference between the men and the boys is the price of their toys... some have replaced their radio controlled power boat for a vessel of significantly bigger proportions thats all!

Where would they be without their crew though?

 

QUOTE(John Orentas @ Jan 8 2006, 12:00 PM)

 

Children and even some women seem to grasp the concept.

How rude !!!!!

Paula XXX

Oh I feel a good scrap comeing on, hehehehe . MEN, Dontcha just love em?

Edited January 8, 2006 by Pirate

[Maffi]

How rude !!!!!

 

Paula XXX

 

No Paula, rude would have been, "Children seem to grasp this point easily but women seldom do".

[roger]

This topic has defintely gone upstream!

[Jon]

I think John has hit the nail on the head. Water flows from the highest point to the lowest point. Going towards the highest is upstream, towards the lowests downstream. As to summit pounds, it will only flow in the direction whereby water is moving downstream. Therefore if a lock on oneside was open, then water would flow towards that.

 

But anyway... to answer the original question, upstream on the thames is towards Dukes Cut, downstream towards London!

 

Cheers

 

Jon

[Amicus]

didjewno there's a little stream in Greece flows across the beach the wrong way?

Seawater flows acoss the beach to a little pond and disappears.

Not a lot of people know that. Iss true!

[Pirate]

didjewno there's a little stream in Greece flows across the beach the wrong way?

Seawater flows acoss the beach to a little pond and disappears.

Not a lot of people know that. Iss true!

 

It might be because the floors Greecy

Edited January 8, 2006 by Pirate

[fender.]

That other 'greasy' waterway, the Corinth Canal flows in either direction, depending on the tides.

[gaggle]

Well what else can be expected?

So the saying goes... the difference between the men and the boys is the price of their toys... some have replaced their radio controlled power boat for a vessel of significantly bigger proportions thats all!

Where would they be without their crew though?

pubs,nightclubs strip clubs ,casino,s, the match, in the arms of a good woman or two yes right up the creek without a paddle

[alan_fincher]

OK, on reading about this upstream/downstream stuuf, I hope here's a good question for all - which way does the water flow on summit levels? That way or the other way? Braunston or the Leicester or Oxford summits for example - which way is the water flowing? Both ways, neither way, one way? I would think at Braunston, as a quite short summit level, it depends on which locks are being used and how often but can imagine the same applies to the other summit levels.

 

Taking it further, is one going 'upstream' or 'downstream' through Braunston Tunnel????

 

Surely, on balance it flows away from wherever the water is being pumped into it ?

 

If that's in the middle of the summit, and locks are being operated at either end on a regular basis, then it's "away from the middle" towards BOTH sets of locks.

 

On the Grand Union summit between Cow Roast (Herts) and Marsworth (Bucks), then the 'flow' is normally southwards, because it's fed from the pumping station on the short Wendover Arm, which flows into it at it's Northern end....

 

(Except when water is being pumped in instead from the borehole at Cow Roast at the Southern end, when I guess the 'flow' may be reversed, if more water is being put in there than via the Wendover arm....)

 

Confused ? I am now!

[Jon]

It's one of those topics that seems crystal clear until you think about it...

 

 

[DHutch]

It's one of those topics that seems crystal clear until you think about it...

- yeah!

[Keeping Up]

We moor just a couple of boat-lengths below a lock. When the lock is emptied, the main flow of water goes straight past us with just a small pull in the direction away from the lock. Then a few minutes later, just as the lock is nearly empty. the initial surge of water comes running back again at the full width of the canal and very strongly pushes us towards the lock. So from a casual observation from our boat, the water clearly flows mainly upstream.

 

Allan