Bilge, glands, etc

[TheKeymeister]

Decided to start re-doing my GRP cruiser, and noticed a few things....

 

The bilge pump does run quite often, which I'm assuming it shouldn't do, but I don't know what's abnormal and what isn't. From what I've read I should be greasing and tightening up the box/gland towards the rear, how do I do this? Or should it be self explanatory? Nobody told me about this, it's not an excuse I know, but don't want to have caused any damage....

 

I've also noticed that the shower seems to dump itself into the "engine bilge", and there's a hole drilled to connect the "engine bilge" through to the main one - from what I can understand this isn't right and it should have failed it's BSS? If so whats my best way of plugging this up. As I understand it shouldn't be leaking any oil/diesel into the canal so makes sense it shouldn't be there.

 

Other than scraping off about 10 years worth of crap and painting it up, it doesn't seem too bad down there otherwise. The guy who did the fit-out was in a rush (you can tell by some of the workmanship) so I'm assuming it was him who vented the shower tray to the engine bilge and drilled the hole through......as I'm 6ft 1 and the shower compartment is about 5 foot, I'm scrapping it completely and just keeping the porta potti in there....

 

Any advice very welcome.....

[Guest wanted]

Somebody with a bit more experience will be along soon i'm sure, but as far as I know there are some wet bilges that are designed to take shower water and then pumped out from there. how often have you used the shower as that could be the source of bilge pumps being active? Again I don't know the reality, but i'm pretty sure that the engine bay and wet bilge shouldn't be connected, if the hole isn't too big then sikaflex or marine flex is the answer, if not then find some sort of bung and again seal with sikaflex.

 

I guess if you are removing the shower then it won't be a huge issue. Have a look about your water pipes and connections as there could be a leak there. check the main water pump, does that come on now and then without the taps open? if so then there could well be a leak. Also check how or if rain water can get to the bilges, you may have a blocked drain outlet.

 

not sure about your boat but to grease the tube on ours, we have a gland greaser that you fill with grease and wind a couple of turns.

 

like I said, there is a load of peeps on here who will no doubt offer more/better advice but the main thing I would suggest is to work through your water system methodically ruling out leaks and check what water can get in from outside and why.

 

good luck and let us know how you get on.

[Tony Brooks]

Decided to start re-doing my GRP cruiser, and noticed a few things....

 

The bilge pump does run quite often, which I'm assuming it shouldn't do, but I don't know what's abnormal and what isn't. From what I've read I should be greasing and tightening up the box/gland towards the rear, how do I do this? Or should it be self explanatory? Nobody told me about this, it's not an excuse I know, but don't want to have caused any damage....

 

I've also noticed that the shower seems to dump itself into the "engine bilge", and there's a hole drilled to connect the "engine bilge" through to the main one - from what I can understand this isn't right and it should have failed it's BSS? If so whats my best way of plugging this up. As I understand it shouldn't be leaking any oil/diesel into the canal so makes sense it shouldn't be there.

 

Other than scraping off about 10 years worth of crap and painting it up, it doesn't seem too bad down there otherwise. The guy who did the fit-out was in a rush (you can tell by some of the workmanship) so I'm assuming it was him who vented the shower tray to the engine bilge and drilled the hole through......as I'm 6ft 1 and the shower compartment is about 5 foot, I'm scrapping it completely and just keeping the porta potti in there....

 

Any advice very welcome.....

 

 

The requirement is that under the engine there will be a drip tray. On metal boats this will often be formed by up stands at the front and back of the engine running between the beds and welded to the bottom plate(s). A similar construction may be found on GRP boats but it is perfectly permissible to have a separate metal tray sitting between the beds on the bilge or ribs.

 

In the later case the engine room bilge should not have any oil or gunge in it with all the oil & fuel drips contained in the metal tray so it is permissible and common to have an "all through" bilge on grp cruisers.

 

If you have no metal drip tray see if there is one formed by GRP upstands. If not then the easiest thing may be to make one but you may wish to lay a couple of 15 or 22mm lengths of plastic pipe either side of any keel upstand so when it is finished drips from the gland can drain through the pipes into the main bilge.

 

GRP work is fairly easy as long as you can get the surfaces nice and clean. Use acetone to finally clean the grp. Rough up with course abrasive paper, Fill any hole or stick wooden upstands with body filler. Then apply the glass matt & resin. Just to block up that hole I mat use a plug of body filler on its own.

[TheKeymeister]

Thanks for the comments there, the only time the shower has been used is when cleaning it out!

 

Now you've mentioned the water pump, that is in the engine compartment, and makes a "toaster" noise as if it's priming every 20/30 seconds, thought this was normal as it has a switch under the sink - so we just turn it off and on as and when its needed at the moment.

 

The windows are leaking slightly but not massively, but I'm going to re-seal them up anyway. The hole joining the bilges is about 20-25mm so will hopefully get a conduit bung and seal that up accordingly

 

The requirement is that under the engine there will be a drip tray. On metal boats this will often be formed by up stands at the front and back of the engine running between the beds and welded to the bottom plate(s). A similar construction may be found on GRP boats but it is perfectly permissible to have a separate metal tray sitting between the beds on the bilge or ribs.

 

In the later case the engine room bilge should not have any oil or gunge in it with all the oil & fuel drips contained in the metal tray so it is permissible and common to have an "all through" bilge on grp cruisers.

 

If you have no metal drip tray see if there is one formed by GRP upstands. If not then the easiest thing may be to make one but you may wish to lay a couple of 15 or 22mm lengths of plastic pipe either side of any keel upstand so when it is finished drips from the gland can drain through the pipes into the main bilge.

 

GRP work is fairly easy as long as you can get the surfaces nice and clean. Use acetone to finally clean the grp. Rough up with course abrasive paper, Fill any hole or stick wooden upstands with body filler. Then apply the glass matt & resin. Just to block up that hole I mat use a plug of body filler on its own.

There's definitely no drip tray under there, and there isn't any room to manoeuvre one around either...so it'll probably be easiest to block up the hole (which is definitely not an original feature...) and line the bilge with absorbent granules or material (which I get from work anyway )

[Guest wanted]

Thanks for the comments there, the only time the shower has been used is when cleaning it out!

 

Now you've mentioned the water pump, that is in the engine compartment, and makes a "toaster" noise as if it's priming every 20/30 seconds, thought this was normal as it has a switch under the sink - so we just turn it off and on as and when its needed at the moment.

 

The windows are leaking slightly but not massively, but I'm going to re-seal them up anyway. The hole joining the bilges is about 20-25mm so will hopefully get a conduit bung and seal that up accordingly

 

 

There's definitely no drip tray under there, and there isn't any room to manoeuvre one around either...so it'll probably be easiest to block up the hole (which is definitely not an original feature...) and line the bilge with absorbent granules or material (which I get from work anyway )

 

Sounds a possible culprit, I'd start by giving that a check over.

 

cheers

Rob

[RobinJ]

The bilge pump does run quite often, which I'm assuming it shouldn't do, but I don't know what's abnormal and what isn't. From what I've read I should be greasing and tightening up the box/gland towards the rear, how do I do this? Or should it be self explanatory? Nobody told me about this, it's not an excuse I know, but don't want to have caused any damage....

Assuming you have an inboard engine, look at whats on the prop shaft wher eit goes through the hull, stuffing box?

Could be rain?

Anybody had a shower?

I've also noticed that the shower seems to dump itself into the "engine bilge", and there's a hole drilled to connect the "engine bilge" through to the main one - from what I can understand this isn't right and it should have failed it's BSS? If so whats my best way of plugging this up. As I understand it shouldn't be leaking any oil/diesel into the canal so makes sense it shouldn't be there.

As has been said there should be a separate cpmpartment under the engine to collect any oil, fuel etc. Some boats allow the shower etc. to drain into the engine bilge, becuase of the limited space underneath the tray, then it is easier to get a pump in!

If you are keeping the shower, sink etc., it can be run into one of those 'sump pump' type waste boxes if you have space, if you loosing the shower then problem solved.

The cabin bilge is normally sealed if the boat is going out on rough water, as it makes it slightly more seaworthy and if you hit something, doesn't sink as fast!

[TheKeymeister]

Back again guys, with a couple more questions....

 

The water ingress into the bilge seems to have quietened down, could be one of two reasons from what I can see, the water pump was removed for the rewire, and also the boat hasn't moved so any gland issues won't be as serious.... The bilge pump has been out of action for a day due to me removing the batteries, and I only had a slight amount of water in there....

 

Going to have to keep onto the linked-through engine bilge - it suddenly dawned on me that the canopy is above the engine compartment and so I need somewhere for any rain ingress to drain off - so it'd probably be easier to keep the linked bilge and fit a drip tray....

 

Couple of questions on drip trays then, is it possible to just go out and buy one or would it be easier to make one? I'm personally not handy with a welder, would bending a bit of sheet ally, bracketing the sides and sealing the edges up with something suffice? Or will it definitely need welding to pass? It'll be filled with absorbent granules anyway. What area does it need to cover as well? Just the sump area, or the 'gearbox' too? I have a small drip tray that I'll mount under the fuel filter too for good measure (and to make it easier to drain water out!)

 

I've also had a closer look at the stuffing glands/box/whatever it is, hard to explain as I don't know what it's meant to look like, basically at one side is canal, and at the other side is the bilge and I have an adjuster knob with grease round it, and a small pipe pointing down into the bilge that was dripping (no engine running or prop turning). Tightening up the knob has stopped the drip completely, so I'm assuming this has to be adjusted and greased regularly - should it be dripping at all, if so how much? And what part exactly am I meant to grease? Will get a picture Wednesday if this makes no sense!

 

A semi-related question while I'm here, I'm fitting chequer plate flooring above the engine area, and I have the diesel and water tanks adjacent to the engine at opposite sides. At present, there are filler pipes running up to fill points, but these aren't really needed - the hose is long enough to run inside for water, and diesel is pretty much always filled from a container.....as such, it'd be much easier to just have internal fill points at floor level. Would this be fouling any regs?

 

Apologies for the loooong post, any advice welcome!

[Smelly]

Any spilled diesel needs to be able to run off the boat so an external filler is a must.

 

Water's not so strict but I'd like not to be feeling too guilty if I'm lost in conversation with someone and flooded the drip tray...

[sociable_hermit]

It sounds to me as though you have a conventional gland and greaser arrangement. The engine bay face of the gland has a collar with a nut either side? The greaser is tubular, taller than it is round, with a screw thread and handle on the top? Probably brass? And the small diameter feed pipe from the greaser runs into the stern gland tube behind the collar?

 

This should not drip at all when the propshaft isn't spinning. Before you start, and again every 2-3 hours of crusing and when you stop, give the greaser a twist. If it still leaks, try tightening the nuts, but don't over-tighten. The propshaft should still be able to move without too much resistance. If the gland is well-greased and has been tightened but it still leaks, it probably needs re-packing.

 

The greaser will need refilling every so often. Use a grease such as Morris K99 which can be found in most Chandlers. Be aware that with some greasers the plunger reaches the bottom of the barrel before the handle runs out of thread at the top.

 

BTW I'd be quite worried by a water pump that won't shut up - there's got to be a leak somewhere. otherwise why does it keep pumping? I wouln't plug that hole in the bulkhead until you know where the leak is - you'll need it to let the water out.

[TheKeymeister]

Not entirely sure I understand about spilled diesel running off the boat - surely a correct sized funnel would prevent this? No worries if not - regs are regs after all.

 

Sounds spot on with the gland, I haven't adjusted it in three months as I had no idea what to do with it and didn't want to damage it - I do have a grease gun so will get some correct grease and make sure it's correctly adjusted for the next run - thanks alot for the advice and clarification

 

Ps- as for the water pump, the bilge in the kitchen area is bone dry, so unless I've got a leak in the shower area then I'm unsure. For now I'll carry on with just running the pump when it's needed and knock it off as soon as I've done....when I eventually rebuild that side, I'll re-pipe the lot anyway.

[sociable_hermit]

If it's a normal greaser you won't need a grease gun. Undo the whole thing (including the barrel). Place the open end over the hole in the grease container. Press down gently with one hand whilst slowly unscrewing the plunger with the other hand, until it won't go up any more. This draws grease up into the greaser - you should be able to feel a bit of resistance. Voila, one full greaser with no mess! Screw the whole thing back into its base and give it a few turns down to get rid of any airlocks. Stop when it becomes stiff.

 

I have seen one boat with a grease nipple on a traditional stern gland, but only one. And that's now been replaced with a normal greaser pot.

[mayalld]

Not entirely sure I understand about spilled diesel running off the boat - surely a correct sized funnel would prevent this? No worries if not - regs are regs after all.

 

 

The point is that the filling arrangement must be designed such that diesel doesn't enter the boat EVEN if the person doing the filling does it wrong.

[WotEver]

The BSS states

Does the location of the fuel filling point ensure that any fuel overflow is prevented from entering the interior of the vessel?

 

So an internal filling point would appear to contravene that requirement at its most fundamental level.

 

It goes on to describe the requirement in more detail:

Fuel overflowing from filling points must be prevented from entering any part of the interior of the vessel. Accordingly, fuel filling points must be positioned so that…

n the camber or configuration of the deck; or,

n the boat’s coaming; or,

n a diverter arrangement;

…causes any overflow to discharge overboard.

 

Tony

Edited September 7, 2010 by WotEver

[TheKeymeister]

Thanks for the clarification - would have thought they'd have preferred spillage to enter the boat than the canal but hey ho.

 

With regards to drip trays, spoke to work colleagues and they've suggested a few ways of making one, such as cutting down a square oil container to the correct height and sticking that under, alternatively we do have some of the oil absorbent 'socks' kicking about for our hazardous waste holding sites and I assume that'd suffice?

[WotEver]

Thanks for the clarification - would have thought they'd have preferred spillage to enter the boat than the canal but hey ho.

They'd prefer you don't spill any at all, but if you do then better a minor slick than a large bang and no boat.

 

Tony

[RLWP]

Thanks for the clarification - would have thought they'd have preferred spillage to enter the boat than the canal but hey ho.

 

With regards to drip trays, spoke to work colleagues and they've suggested a few ways of making one, such as cutting down a square oil container to the correct height and sticking that under, alternatively we do have some of the oil absorbent 'socks' kicking about for our hazardous waste holding sites and I assume that'd suffice?

 

Spilled diesel going overboard means diesel in the canal

 

Spilled diesel going on the engine means fire* and death*

 

It's a Boat Safety Scheme, not an environmental management plan after all

 

Richard

 

*potentially, anyway

[WotEver]

With regards to drip trays, spoke to work colleagues and they've suggested a few ways of making one, such as cutting down a square oil container to the correct height and sticking that under, alternatively we do have some of the oil absorbent 'socks' kicking about for our hazardous waste holding sites and I assume that'd suffice?

I don't believe an absorbent material would suffice in place of a drip tray, but I'm sure an examiner would be happy to see anything in addition to a drip tray.

 

See Page 3 of this partof the BSS.

 

Tony

[TheKeymeister]

I'll have a flick through and try speaking to a few people too, I'm sure I've read about people using these and also oil filters that attach to the bilge pump - I'll get it sorted anyway

[WotEver]

I'm sure I've read about people using these and also oil filters that attach to the bilge pump

 

They're mentioned in that document. Ensure that you have the manufacturer's data to hand when the BSE happens if you go that route.

 

Tony

[Iain_S]

The requirement is that under the engine there will be a drip tray. On metal boats this will often be formed by up stands at the front and back of the engine running between the beds and welded to the bottom plate(s). A similar construction may be found on GRP boats but it is perfectly permissible to have a separate metal tray sitting between the beds on the bilge or ribs.

 

Does it have to be metal? As far as I can see, the BSS specifies " an appropriate non-porous material, such as metal."

 

Iain

 

Edited to add : From Tony's link to a later version of BSS "The material of each engine tray or oil-tight area must be non-porous and oil resistant."

Edited September 7, 2010 by Iain_S

[PhilR]

Does it have to be metal? As far as I can see, the BSS specifies " an appropriate non-porous material, such as metal."

 

Iain

 

Edited to add : From Tony's link to a later version of BSS "The material of each engine tray or oil-tight area must be non-porous and oil resistant."

 

If the rear (engine) bilge is separate from the cabin bilge, the whole of the rear bilge can be treates as an oil tight area. A bilge pump can be placed in a washing up bowl, or similar, which is located underneath the stern gland. This will comply with the BSS.

[WotEver]

If the rear (engine) bilge is separate from the cabin bilge, the whole of the rear bilge can be treates as an oil tight area. A bilge pump can be placed in a washing up bowl, or similar, which is located underneath the stern gland. This will comply with the BSS.

Yup, that would work well.

 

Tony

[TheKeymeister]

Thought it'd be quite difficult to explain the current setup, so drawn a diagram instead....

 

Grey indicates a bilge area, for clarification....the rest should be self explanatory!

 

Although there have been many good suggestions I have a few problems with each, as below....

 

 

1- Drip tray under engine

To get the drip tray in and out, it means removing and disconnecting ALL the batteries and lifting them out....should the tray need much maintenance? I haven't lost any noticeable amount of oil so far (touch wood) and if its time to service the engine then thats only really a yearly occurence for the use it gets...

 

2- Seal the engine bilge off from the rear one

Problem here is water ingress when the roof is down, it shouldn't let too much in really as the roof should be up when its raining....getting it out isn't a problem, caravan type pump to empty the majority and then split the oil/water (if any) and dispose of accordingly.

 

3- Washing up bowl under gland and bilge pump inside that

Basically, same issues as the above

 

 

 

 

So if in practice the drip tray won't need much emptying, it seems the best way to go. Any thoughts on this? And does anyone know what area the tray needs to cover, just the sump, or more?

 

Thanks again!

 

PS- Shower drain is included in the diagram, this is now removed

[RobinJ]

1- Drip tray under engine

To get the drip tray in and out, it means removing and disconnecting ALL the batteries and lifting them out....should the tray need much maintenance? I haven't lost any noticeable amount of oil so far (touch wood) and if its time to service the engine then thats only really a yearly occurence for the use it gets...

It is there to collect any oil, fuel or antifreeze which leaks from anywhere on the engine (or gearbox too) and this under normal circumstance may only be dirung serviceing!

2- Seal the engine bilge off from the rear one

Problem here is water ingress when the roof is down, it shouldn't let too much in really as the roof should be up when its raining....getting it out isn't a problem, caravan type pump to empty the majority and then split the oil/water (if any) and dispose of accordingly.

A tray will effectively seal of the engine/gearbox from the main bilge (unless it overflows).

3- Washing up bowl under gland and bilge pump inside that

Basically, same issues as the above

It is useful to have a bowl under the stern gland as this, a) indicates how much it is dripping, enables you to keep the rest of the bilge dry? The problem is that if rain is able to run down over the engine, it can pick up contaminants that you should probably not pump overboard. Also any leaks on the engine may not need to cover just the drain plugs and sump but also any points where oil etc. can run down form say the rocker cover? It will be a balance between making the tray big enough and how frequent/complex it is to empty!

[TheKeymeister]

Thats fine, due to the length of the engine and gearbox I'll have to make it two or three individual trays to actually be able to get it down there. As for water running down the rocker cover etc, the drainage channels are placed so as that wouldn't occur. Seems the drip tray route will be the easiest way out though