Narrow Boat Trust - where are you?

[Steilsteven]

I quite like the sound of the NBT, I might join. Seems like a good way to go boating if you haven't got a boat (although I suppose they are overun with volunteers...)

 

On the contrary, we have difficulty getting enough crew at times, this year being no exception.

Please join, you'll be glad you did.

 

Keith.

 

p.s. the boats are due to arrive here at Burghfield this evening.

 

Apparently, in order to improve the public's perception, of their organisation, the NBT members will be wearing Burkahs, from now on.

 

 

You calling me a Burk huh?

 

Keith.

[mayalld]

On the contrary, we have difficulty getting enough crew at times, this year being no exception.

As I've said before, having seen the amateurish way 15 people handled the boats when I was down there last year, I simply wouldn't wish to be associated with NBT

[Rob Dean]

Well I'm looking forward to seeing Nuneaton & Brighton for sure. You can join us breasted 7 deep on the Wharf at Newbury and nobody will grumble. Not even the 72' trip boat we're bringing from Burghfield for the Festival. It should be a great weekend.

Rob Dean

Director, Newbury Waterways Festival

Kennet & Avon Canal Trust

[rrt2]

As I've said before, having seen the amateurish way 15 people handled the boats when I was down there last year, I simply wouldn't wish to be associated with NBT

 

 

But Dave your words say it all " amateurish way" that's what we are none of us do it for a living we give up our time for no reward I don't know what it costs me to drive the 450 mile round trip to do a few days work on the boats in the middle of winter nor do I care. Some of our members have years of boating skills others have none. I had as part of my crew for a coal run a couple of years ago a newly joined member who had never been on a narrow boat in his life. We were on our way to load and he was soon steering the butty on cross straps then on to the motor no problems at all.

It takes time for a crew to meld together and as we take an ever differing group of members on the boats we do not get a chance to develop into a well trained crew who are used to boating together and the various tasks that come along get done in a well organized way. When I had my pair I had a reasonably static crew and we developed into a well trained crew. It did not happen overnight but it did happen.

Regards

Barry Adams

[mayalld]

But Dave your words say it all " amateurish way" that's what we are none of us do it for a living we give up our time for no reward I don't know what it costs me to drive the 450 mile round trip to do a few days work on the boats in the middle of winter nor do I care. Some of our members have years of boating skills others have none. I had as part of my crew for a coal run a couple of years ago a newly joined member who had never been on a narrow boat in his life. We were on our way to load and he was soon steering the butty on cross straps then on to the motor no problems at all.

It takes time for a crew to meld together and as we take an ever differing group of members on the boats we do not get a chance to develop into a well trained crew who are used to boating together and the various tasks that come along get done in a well organized way. When I had my pair I had a reasonably static crew and we developed into a well trained crew. It did not happen overnight but it did happen.

Regards

Barry Adams

 

There are two sorts of amateurs.

 

There are the amateurs who are determined, come what may, to do something in a thoroughly professional manner, such that the task is performed in a manner that would not disgrace a professional.

 

Then there are the kind of amateurs who will readily trot out the excuse that they are amateurs/volunteers, as a "get out of jail free" card to excuse all manner of poor workmanship.

 

Sadly, my impression of NBT was the latter.

[Roger t' Bodger]

I'm the cause of this thread that has caused a bit of a upset and I'm sorry that certain canal residents have been caught up in a long running silly biz. All I wanted to know was, 'were the boats and crew ok?' as I hadn't heard anything through a turbulent week of weather. The trust has the latest in technology in communication ie crew members own mobile phones that can't be thrashed otherwise them in doors won't be able to check up on partners's status....

 

Bones's defense of Mr Smelly was probably overall totally justified, I had him down for a decent feller, it's not his fault he was taken in by other negative stances on the NBT over the years and approached, what to him was an example of arrogant boorish behaviour by a charity. I'm really sorry that this has been a mentally bruising situation for anyone involved. This isn't what this existance is about but are those who think that others are less worthy in some way to exoerience the beauty and timelessness of parts of our waterways.

 

It hasn't been a waste of time because most of those who have followed this thread know more than they did before.

 

And those who have been enticed by what the NBT offers - don't waste any further time, just check out the website....

 

and this which gives a glimpse of another day in the life of the trust.

 

http://www.vimeo.com/4897746

 

Enjoy

[Stephen Sugg]

There are two sorts of amateurs.

 

There are the amateurs who are determined, come what may, to do something in a thoroughly professional manner, such that the task is performed in a manner that would not disgrace a professional.

 

Then there are the kind of amateurs who will readily trot out the excuse that they are amateurs/volunteers, as a "get out of jail free" card to excuse all manner of poor workmanship.

 

Sadly, my impression of NBT was the latter.

I've missed your earlier posts on this but have you only seen them once? I've never seem them (well if I have they didn't leave a positive or negative impression because I've completely forgotten it!)

[mayalld]

I've missed your earlier posts on this but have you only seen them once? I've never seem them (well if I have they didn't leave a positive or negative impression because I've completely forgotten it!)

 

NBT's usual cruising grounds are well away from ours, so our paths are unlikely to cross.

 

On my only encounter with them, they took a loaded pair past lines of moored boats in Rugby at full speed, causing several to pull their pins.

 

Later that day, at Hilmorton, the crew were running around as if they owned the canal at the first lock, issuing instructions as to what we must do as we passed through the lock.

 

At the second lock, they completely fouled up, dropping a rope onto the prop, ran aground across the mouth of one of the locks, leaving a boat load of foreign tourists who were coming down the lock unable to exit for 20 minutes, and reducing the lady of the hire boat to tears with their barked instructions as to what they must do.

 

Perhaps what I saw was untypical of the way NBT generally behaves, but if they are to avoid criticism, such behaviour cannot be allowed, even as a one-off.

[Hairy-Neil]

You calling me a Burk huh?

 

Keith.

 

If the cap fits, wear it....

[Stephen Sugg]

Perhaps what I saw was untypical of the way NBT generally behaves, but if they are to avoid criticism, such behaviour cannot be allowed, even as a one-off.

Fair comment.

[romarni123]

NBT's usual cruising grounds are well away from ours, so our paths are unlikely to cross.

 

On my only encounter with them, they took a loaded pair past lines of moored boats in Rugby at full speed, causing several to pull their pins.

 

Later that day, at Hilmorton, the crew were running around as if they owned the canal at the first lock, issuing instructions as to what we must do as we passed through the lock.

 

At the second lock, they completely fouled up, dropping a rope onto the prop, ran aground across the mouth of one of the locks, leaving a boat load of foreign tourists who were coming down the lock unable to exit for 20 minutes, and reducing the lady of the hire boat to tears with their barked instructions as to what they must do.

 

Perhaps what I saw was untypical of the way NBT generally behaves, but if they are to avoid criticism, such behaviour cannot be allowed, even as a one-off.

 

Seems typical of a few leisurel boaters as well

[mayalld]

Seems typical of a few leisurel boaters as well

 

Oh, I certainly wouldn't dispute that.

 

However, if you set yourself on a pedestal (as NBT do), your behaviour must be of the very highest standard

[romarni123]

Oh, I certainly wouldn't dispute that.

 

However, if you set yourself on a pedestal (as NBT do), your behaviour must be of the very highest standard

 

One of the worst things I have seen was when we were coming down the Gu. In front of us were a family with little kids mom dad and gran on board a day hire boat.A boat with the blue and I think yellow paint job with British Waterways writing crewed by old men in boiler suits and flat caps, went past the day boat shouting at them that they were a working boat and to get out the way. T he family were pushed up to the side where the canal was shallow and the boat was tilting, the young kids were screaming and very scared we had to tow them off. It was disgraceful.

[rrt2]

Oh, I certainly wouldn't dispute that.

 

However, if you set yourself on a pedestal (as NBT do), your behaviour must be of the very highest standard

 

 

Who says we set ourselves on a pedestal.Although I have only been in the trust a few years I have never gathered from any of the members I have met or boated with that is what we think of ourselves. I certainly don't I might have a fair bit of time spent on working boats, but when I was boating some of the lock keepers were retired boatmen and you knew your place in those days.

 

Perhaps its our detractors who put us on a pedestal so than can derive some sort of pleasure in trying to knock us down.

[Roger t' Bodger]

Oh, I certainly wouldn't dispute that.

 

However, if you set yourself on a pedestal (as NBT do), your behaviour must be of the very highest standard

 

Perhaps your very brief experience of the NBT acting like plonkers, is a little dated and as for our pedestal - I've never seen it or heard it alluded to, in the years I've been a member. Remember that the Trust is forty years old and many hundreds of people from all walks of life have joined, enjoyed and left again, in most cases far more aware and appreciative of what the Trust is about. Meanwhile a very small core of original members from the early days are still there, but in the background allowing fresh blood to sustain the Trust.

 

In other words, its very old biased news and not relevent to the Trust today....

 

But then as just a member - I would say that.

[romarni123]

It looks intresting so am going to get a membership and make my own mind up.

[Maffi]

snip . . .

He has enough on his plate in filling in the day's log before he falls asleep -

 

You are giving the impression that your boatmen moor up and go to bed soon after, and indeed I would do the same if I had worked straight through from 4 o'clock in the morning (your timing) but the picture I showed earlier in the thread was taken at 23.33 and they were certainly in the pub when I arrived just after 21.00. As I see it the picture you paint is embellished somewhat.

 

 

 

 

Well I'm looking forward to seeing Nuneaton & Brighton for sure. You can join us breasted 7 deep on the Wharf at Newbury and nobody will grumble. Not even the 72' trip boat we're bringing from Burghfield for the Festival. It should be a great weekend.

Rob Dean

Director, Newbury Waterways Festival

Kennet & Avon Canal Trust

 

 

Why would the 72' trip boat complain, it will be part of the festival? DOH!

Edited July 20, 2010 by Maffi

[Maffi]

snip . . . .

The pictures show the space, the water level and, a boat passing easily; A picture paints a thousand words and indicates what I had opined much earlier (with no one adding agreement!). So thanks for the picture.

 

The picture shows the space and the water level and a boat passing, true, but it shows it the next morning not the night before so as evidence the 1000 words it speaks are not by any means a truth. It isnt evidence of anything that happened the previous day. There is always more water in the canal in the morning. The picture is certainly not representative of the view that the steerer had through the small gap of the bridge hole. He would have been up to 90' behind the bridge and his line of sight lower down. Given that he had only just picked up the nearly new boat that afternoon the last thing he would have wanted to do would have been to scrape the paint off.

 

This picture was zoomed or cropped in such away the eye of the viewer is probably (I'm guessing here) 60' forward of the bridge and 10 feet above the water. Our intrepid hirer never got anywhere near that close. He had to go with his best guess of what he saw and that was he couldn't pass. It doesnt matter what your NBT crews thought, the man with his hand on the tiller had ultimate responsibility for the craft

 

So I think this statement like many of the statements you have made in this thread is more flim flam and snake oil

Edited July 20, 2010 by Maffi

[mayalld]

Who says we set ourselves on a pedestal.Although I have only been in the trust a few years I have never gathered from any of the members I have met or boated with that is what we think of ourselves. I certainly don't I might have a fair bit of time spent on working boats, but when I was boating some of the lock keepers were retired boatmen and you knew your place in those days.

 

Perhaps its our detractors who put us on a pedestal so than can derive some sort of pleasure in trying to knock us down.

 

I say that you do.

 

I say it, because after having pulled the pins of a dozen boats by going too fast, you got to a lock, disgorged a veritable mob of members who proceeded to lecture anybody there, including other boaters about how locks should be worked, and how NBT was keeping the working boat tradition alive, and how difficult it was, what with leisure boaters in the way.

 

 

Perhaps your very brief experience of the NBT acting like plonkers, is a little dated and as for our pedestal - I've never seen it or heard it alluded to, in the years I've been a member. Remember that the Trust is forty years old and many hundreds of people from all walks of life have joined, enjoyed and left again, in most cases far more aware and appreciative of what the Trust is about. Meanwhile a very small core of original members from the early days are still there, but in the background allowing fresh blood to sustain the Trust.

 

In other words, its very old biased news and not relevent to the Trust today....

 

But then as just a member - I would say that.

 

Well, if you believe that last summer is ancient history, then you are free to say that it is ancient history. I don't think that it is particularly old news.

 

As for biased. Why would I be biased? I am not an embittered former member. I am simply somebody who has encountered the NBT on one day and left with a VERY poor impression. Perhaps it would be better if NBT dealt with problematic behaviour, rather than simply claiming that anything said about it is biased.

[blodger]

The picture shows the space and the water level and a boat passing, true, but it shows it the next morning not the night before so as evidence the 1000 words it speaks are not by any means a truth. It isnt evidence of anything that happened the previous day. There is always more water in the canal in the morning. The picture is certainly not representative of the view that the steerer had through the small gap of the bridge hole. He would have been up to 90' behind the bridge and his line of sight lower down. Given that he had only just picked up the nearly new boat that afternoon the last thing he would have wanted to do would have been to scrape the paint off.

 

This picture was zoomed or cropped in such away the eye of the viewer is probably (I'm guessing here) 60' forward of the bridge and 10 feet above the water. Our intrepid hirer never got anywhere near that close. He had to go with his best guess of what he saw and that was he couldn't pass. It doesnt matter what your NBT crews thought, the man with his hand on the tiller had ultimate responsibility for the craft

 

So I think this statement like many of the statements you have made in this thread is more flim flam and snake oil

Sorry but I think your post comprises more conjecture and guessing than reality. I am not connected with NBT, Thrupp or Mr Smelly.

[Steilsteven]

NBT's usual cruising grounds are well away from ours, so our paths are unlikely to cross.

 

On my only encounter with them, they took a loaded pair past lines of moored boats in Rugby at full speed, causing several to pull their pins.

 

Later that day, at Hilmorton, the crew were running around as if they owned the canal at the first lock, issuing instructions as to what we must do as we passed through the lock.

 

At the second lock, they completely fouled up, dropping a rope onto the prop, ran aground across the mouth of one of the locks, leaving a boat load of foreign tourists who were coming down the lock unable to exit for 20 minutes, and reducing the lady of the hire boat to tears with their barked instructions as to what they must do.

 

Perhaps what I saw was untypical of the way NBT generally behaves, but if they are to avoid criticism, such behaviour cannot be allowed, even as a one-off.

 

Sorry Dave, but I don't believe what you keep repeating whenever NBT gets mentioned.

I think it contains a great amount of gross exageration, for instance I know for sure that there was no where near 15 people on board at the time.

Passing at full speed? I doubt that very much, are you saying they were doing 4mph? How do you know this, did you have a radar gun on you at the time ( it wouldn't surprise me)? What was the depth of the cut along that stretch? Were they having difficulty maintaining steerage? Were the moored boats tied up properly with springs and their pins in firm ground?

 

Dropping a rope onto the prop, I guess you mean the towing line (snubber or snatcher in correct parlance ) did this not happen after the motor got stemmed up? Although not desirable, an easy thing to do when the butty is fast catching up and you're having to make many snap decisions all at once.

So this situation caused a temporary hold up for another boat, well of course it did. It takes time to rectify problems doesn't it?

 

They issued instructions to you, omg! How could they even contemplate the very idea that they should even tentatively make any request to you which would slightly interfere with your obviously, supremely expert boating? Weren't they aware of who you were? Please except my apologies on their behalf for their ignorance.

 

Barking instructions to others? I think what you mean here is, as they were foreign tourists on a hire boat, perhaps they were inexperienced and perhaps their English wasn't so good. Maybe just maybe, the NBT crew were trying to help these people avoid a mishap of their own and either couldn't be heard over the noise of engines, gushing water etc.

Voices get raised in these circumstances, it's unavoidable. I can quite understand the lady being reduced to tears, boating is dangerous at times and she probably didn't realise this when contemplating a boating holiday.

 

I'm not attempting to excuse anyones behaviour, every, and I mean every, insident,complaint or accident is thoroughly investigated by NBT and acted upon accordingly.

It gets rather tiring having to justify NBTs' existance every time they get metioned on here but because I believe that it's not only a great organisation run entirely by volunteers,

it's also a fantastic opportunity available to anyone ( even you Dave ), I will continue to do so.

 

Keith Norfolk

Chairman

Narrow Boat Trust Ltd.

[mayalld]

Sorry Dave, but I don't believe what you keep repeating whenever NBT gets mentioned.

I think it contains a great amount of gross exageration, for instance I know for sure that there was no where near 15 people on board at the time.

Passing at full speed? I doubt that very much, are you saying they were doing 4mph? How do you know this, did you have a radar gun on you at the time ( it wouldn't surprise me)? What was the depth of the cut along that stretch? Were they having difficulty maintaining steerage? Were the moored boats tied up properly with springs and their pins in firm ground?

 

Dropping a rope onto the prop, I guess you mean the towing line (snubber or snatcher in correct parlance ) did this not happen after the motor got stemmed up? Although not desirable, an easy thing to do when the butty is fast catching up and you're having to make many snap decisions all at once.

So this situation caused a temporary hold up for another boat, well of course it did. It takes time to rectify problems doesn't it?

 

They issued instructions to you, omg! How could they even contemplate the very idea that they should even tentatively make any request to you which would slightly interfere with your obviously, supremely expert boating? Weren't they aware of who you were? Please except my apologies on their behalf for their ignorance.

 

Barking instructions to others? I think what you mean here is, as they were foreign tourists on a hire boat, perhaps they were inexperienced and perhaps their English wasn't so good. Maybe just maybe, the NBT crew were trying to help these people avoid a mishap of their own and either couldn't be heard over the noise of engines, gushing water etc.

Voices get raised in these circumstances, it's unavoidable. I can quite understand the lady being reduced to tears, boating is dangerous at times and she probably didn't realise this when contemplating a boating holiday.

 

I'm not attempting to excuse anyones behaviour, every, and I mean every, insident,complaint or accident is thoroughly investigated by NBT and acted upon accordingly.

It gets rather tiring having to justify NBTs' existance every time they get metioned on here but because I believe that it's not only a great organisation run entirely by volunteers,

it's also a fantastic opportunity available to anyone ( even you Dave ), I will continue to do so.

 

Keith Norfolk

Chairman

Narrow Boat Trust Ltd.

 

Why do you imagine that I keep repeating it?

 

I repeat it, because it was boorish and inconsiderate behaviour, and because despite your insistence that any incidents are acted on accordingly, the only thing I ever see in response to incidents is denials and justifications.

 

You "know for sure" that 15 people were not on board at the time. I know for sure that I counted 15 people either on board or operating the lock for the NBT boats.

 

I cannot give you a radar measured speed. I can say that there was no apparent attempt to slow down whatsoever, that several boats had their pins pulled, and that the attitude of the steerer when people complained about this was unpleasant. I made no measurement of how far in other peoples pins were, but ours were in such that the loop touched the ground, with springs set, and our pins were pulled.

 

Due to the lack of an echo sounder, I cannot supply any information about the canal profile, although I can tell you that it was close to Tesco in Rugby.

 

Nobody made a "request". Even before they cocked up, one of the crew came over to TELL us what we MUST do, and yes they were barking at the foreign tourists. Perhaps you would consider training to the effect that if somebody doesn't speak English well, THEY WON'T UNDERSTAND EVEN IF YOU SHOUT. As it happens, I spoke to the chap on the hire boat, and he spoke excellent English.

 

Your crew raised their voices, because they were determined that they were going to comandeer the hire boat to push them off, and the lady was reduced to tears because she was trapped on board in a situation that she didn't like whilst lots of people were demanding that her husband obey their instructions to sort out THEIR cock-up.

 

Frankly, if that is the attitude of the Chairman, I am unsurprised by the regularity with which the members come in for criticism.

[Natalie Graham]

Oh come on Dave, you are getting ridiculous now.

 

Everybody in Britain knows that the way to make foreigners understand is to shout in English.

[carlt]

I think all of the criticisms, of the NBT, can be fairly levelled at all of the ex-working boat trusts, charities and many private owners.

 

I have seen boorish, unprofessional behaviour demonstrated by the Raymond folk, President's crew and yes, even by the NBT, amongst others.

 

I can also say the same about certain private historic boat owners and on one occasion (that I can recall) may have been guilty myself when I, foolishly, let a well crewed clonecraft pass me, at the bottom of Napton flight and realised, after one lock, that they didn't know what they were doing but wouldn't let me pass, again, when I caught them up, despite me being single handed.

 

The only difference between all the other trusts, and NBT, is that the NBT is willing to come here and defend itself.

 

Personally, despite, occasionally, levelling criticism at them, myself, I think the canals are a better place, because of there existence.

Edited July 21, 2010 by carlt

[pete harrison]

Peter,

Not an argument but a genuine question because I dont know. Was the term Captain used on the steam powered narrow boats?

 

The largest fleet of steam narrow boats was that operated by Fellows, Morton & Clayton Ltd., Birmingham and it is their records that still seem to exist the best. Any documented F.M.C. Ltd. reference that I have refers to the person in charge of their steamers by name and not position, so this does not answer your question.

 

I have therefore just spoken with Richard Thomas who has seen considerably more steamer documentation than I have as these boats are his field of interest. He says that if the (F.M.C. Ltd.) steamer was running 'fly' then the term for the person in charge was usually "Captain", but if running 'slow' it was usually "Steerer". He also said that the second in command was the "Mate" whilst the people operating the steam plant were the "Driver" and "Drivers Mate".

 

As the narrow steamers were very much in the minority I am sticking with my previous statement and shall continue to use the term "Steerer". I can also add that the term used for the person in charge during a health registration / inspection was "Master".

 

I think all of the criticisms, of the NBT, can be fairly levelled at all of the ex-working boat trusts, charities and many private owners.

 

I have seen boorish, unprofessional behaviour demonstrated by the Raymond folk, President's crew and yes, even by the NBT, amongst others.

 

There seems to be a common denominator here as I used to be a Steerer for both the Narrow Boat Trust Ltd. (now the Narrow Boat Trust Company Ltd. per the new lettering on their boats) and the Friends of Raymond.