Is it just the K&A

[magpie patrick]

As someone intimately connected to the boaters in this area, I would like to point out that this is untrue. Sue has never liaised between any of the boaters around here and BW, nor, with her attitude, would we want her to.

 

Those same boaters, who i would like to point out, organised a clean up of the towpath and canal last weekend and proactively manage their community to keep it tidy and safe.

 

As has been pointed out, if you don't like the diversity of boats and lifestyle go live in a marina.

 

 

 

Yes, of course it is, and it is a Very Stupid Comparison.

 

One is theft, a criminal offence (I can send you a link if you don't understand) the other is a lifestyle choice that may or may not bring one into conflict with certain rules dependent on how one exercises that choice but is certainly possible without breaking any rules.

 

Thank you Chris, I knew you'd turn up when we needed you.

 

Sounds like Sueb has some explaining to do

[Doorman]

The west end of the K & A is the slum of the canal system.

Ooops did I say that?

Sue

 

Have you passed throught the Leeds/Liverpool, between Maghull and the Stanley Locks en route to the Albert Dock complex? That takes some beating!

[seaandland]

The whole problem lies with lack of waterways staff on the bank and mooring officers. We can not now mow grass as all our mowers have been sold off, we do not cut offside over hangers which in the Caldon area have not been done for well over a year, hedge cutting has gone out to contract and they only cut the top and canal side edges, the towpaths are cut 4 times a year by contractors, two full and two part, the full summer cuts are 1.5mtre wide down the middle of the towpath, not good in full growth for viewing the canal and vice versa.

As for the mooring officers, I have not seen one for about 8 months, do they still excist.

 

Answer, due to no money,, volunteers and user groups OR IT STAYS THE SAME AND GETS WORSE.

[Jim Batty]

The eastern end is quiet in comparison to the western end where it is very busy, IME it is all a pleasant place to be, but you need to adjust your cruising style to suit the weight of traffic.

 

Maintenance is variable in it's quality, big projects seem to be completed with no problem, however the day to day maintenance of the locks and their associated equipment is bordering on negligent IMO. Loose walkways and hand rails, cap stones etc are a real hazard on some locks, most locks have faults that are easy to spot and fix but remain un-maintained apart from a lick of paint (rare) and a dab of grease, a quick shakedown cruise sunday/monday over the three locks and two swingbridges,, two of the locks had faulty paddle gear (one has been out of action for a couple of years now) Loose capstones (a couple of hours work max) One bridge was almost immovable (took three people to shift it)

 

The 'craft skills' seem to have dissapeared amongst the BW ground staff, they spend most of their time running around keeping water levels at a reasonable level and cleaning by-weirs, leaving little time for essential (IMO) maintainance. Management only seem to visit the big projects and the high profile (easy access) locks & features (not surprisingly these areas appear to be well maintained)

 

Trips up the Thames and the oxford and GU canals always leaves me feeling that the K&A is the poor neglected area of the network, BW state they have spent many millions on the K&A but I fear most of that has gone to the western end.

 

A hard canal? Perhaps, at least it keeps it quiet

 

Eastern end is beautiful - especially this time of year with hawthorne in bloom, buttercup fields (with the occasional Hollywood cow there to watch your progress), willow fluff flying, even the 9-foot high reed jungles. But some currents of the Kennet between Reading and Theale are stronger than the yellow-boarded Thames of a month ago. And lots of fallen trees clearly have lain there for years. Oh, and Fobney Lock upper southside gate arm swings over the lock itself (and compressed our bicycles into the forward bulkhead). So far (Newbury) its been easy to find a 14-day spot to moor up -- very occasionally requiring the plank.

[Jim Batty]

... Those same boaters, who i would like to point out, organised a clean up of the towpath and canal last weekend and proactively manage their community to keep it tidy and safe.

 

As has been pointed out, if you don't like the diversity of boats and lifestyle go live in a marina. ...

 

Are we talking about a community of online residential moorings here? Or a community of continual cruisers (not in a marina; not on residential online moorings)?

 

I can't see any problem with the former. If the latter, how does that work -- does everybody cruise (and manage themselves) 'en bloc'?

 

Or is it more like a community claiming squatting rights along a particular bank?

[Nightwatch]

The whole problem lies with lack of waterways staff on the bank and mooring officers. We can not now mow grass as all our mowers have been sold off, we do not cut offside over hangers which in the Caldon area have not been done for well over a year, hedge cutting has gone out to contract and they only cut the top and canal side edges, the towpaths are cut 4 times a year by contractors, two full and two part, the full summer cuts are 1.5mtre wide down the middle of the towpath, not good in full growth for viewing the canal and vice versa.

As for the mooring officers, I have not seen one for about 8 months, do they still excist.

 

Answer, due to no money,, volunteers and user groups OR IT STAYS THE SAME AND GETS WORSE.

I guess your comments were as a response to my comments.

 

What I can't understand is 'why' is there no money. I wouldn't mind betting that the incumbent contractor has had one hell of a battle getting somewhere near the contract price that he/she feels is necessary to do the job to spec. There is probably Sales guy/lass somewhere rubbing their hands together and counting their commission because they have 'won' the BW contract at an unachievable price for the contract. I for one is paying more for my boat license than last year, I pay more for my moorings which a bit goes to BW, but see that I am not getting the same standards of maintenance.

 

I know this is old hat, but is there too many Chiefs and not enough Indians in BW?

 

I can rant on and on but can we really penetrate BW and get the system run more efficiently?

 

I doubt it.

 

Martyn

[sueb]

As someone intimately connected to the boaters in this area, I would like to point out that this is untrue. Sue has never liaised between any of the boaters around here and BW, nor, with her attitude, would we want her to.

 

Those same boaters, who i would like to point out, organised a clean up of the towpath and canal last weekend and proactively manage their community to keep it tidy and safe.

 

As has been pointed out, if you don't like the diversity of boats and lifestyle go live in a marina.

 

 

 

Yes, of course it is, and it is a Very Stupid Comparison.

 

One is theft, a criminal offence (I can send you a link if you don't understand) the other is a lifestyle choice that may or may not bring one into conflict with certain rules dependent on how one exercises that choice but is certainly possible without breaking any rules.

 

Can you prove I have never liaised with BW and the boaters because I am afraid it is true that I have.

I agree it was a stupid comparison I had done a lot of locks that day. The comparison should have been with car parking and illegally living on the street. Stop making things up I haven't said I don't like diversity. I like continuously cruising.

So cleaning the towpath gives people the right to live illegally on their boats? I don't think so.

Sue

 

Hmmm, you'd make a fine liaison officer with that attitude.

 

I don't know all 150 but the ones I know make a point of not using (and certainly not abusing) visitor moorings which make up a only a few hundred yards of the 15 miles between Bath and Semmington.

 

Go stay in Centre Parcs if you want it all orderly and manicured

 

Are there canals in Centre Parks? Did I say I wanted it all orderly and manicured? I am glad the visitor moorings haven't got boats overstaying as I will be down there later this year and I would like to moor without a gangplank

 

Sue

 

The whole problem lies with lack of waterways staff on the bank and mooring officers. We can not now mow grass as all our mowers have been sold off, we do not cut offside over hangers which in the Caldon area have not been done for well over a year, hedge cutting has gone out to contract and they only cut the top and canal side edges, the towpaths are cut 4 times a year by contractors, two full and two part, the full summer cuts are 1.5mtre wide down the middle of the towpath, not good in full growth for viewing the canal and vice versa.

As for the mooring officers, I have not seen one for about 8 months, do they still excist.

 

Answer, due to no money,, volunteers and user groups OR IT STAYS THE SAME AND GETS WORSE.

 

Last year the K & A eastern end had an active band of volunteers so you can see the results of their work. The system can't be worked by volunteers.

Sue

[magpie patrick]

r

Are there canals in Centre Parks? Did I say I wanted it all orderly and manicured? I am glad the visitor moorings haven't got boats overstaying as I will be down there later this year and I would like to moor without a gangplank

 

Given everything you've said about it I'm a bit surprised you are coming this way, or do you just like to go places you can moan about?

 

The point is Sue, regardless of whether or not you were acting to liaise or not, someone whose starting point is "some of the people I'm dealing with here are Scumbags" isn't going to be very good at it. Liaison is about seeing both sides, not making the case for the prosecution.

 

Last year the K & A eastern end had an active band of volunteers so you can see the results of their work. The system can't be worked by volunteers.

Sue

 

No, but volunteers can do a lot more than they have historically under BW, things like grass cutting, litter picking etc are only just the start. By way of example, BW valued volunteer input on the soon to be reopened Cotswold Canal (Stonehouse to Brimscombe) at £75,000. Stroud DC have identified volunteer works of £1.1 million

[sueb]

Given everything you've said about it I'm a bit surprised you are coming this way, or do you just like to go places you can moan about?

 

The point is Sue, regardless of whether or not you were acting to liaise or not, someone whose starting point is "some of the people I'm dealing with here are Scumbags" isn't going to be very good at it. Liaison is about seeing both sides, not making the case for the prosecution.

 

 

 

No, but volunteers can do a lot more than they have historically under BW, things like grass cutting, litter picking etc are only just the start. By way of example, BW valued volunteer input on the soon to be reopened Cotswold Canal (Stonehouse to Brimscombe) at £75,000. Stroud DC have identified volunteer works of £1.1 million

I do wish you you would stop saying what I think. At no time did I say people were scumbags. This may be your opinion bug don't impose this on me. So by your reasoning solicitors shouldn't defend the guilty.

BW walked out of the Cotswold restoration leaving them with a 6 million whole in their budget.

Sue away till later doing some volunteering.

[magpie patrick]

BW walked out of the Cotswold restoration leaving them with a 6 million whole in their budget.

 

As the manager of £12 million of the funding for that canal I can say, hand on heart, that that isn't true.

 

BW had underwritten the scheme, and had, at the time of their departure, a liability of around £2 million. This was on a risk register so it was entirely possible that the expenditure wouldn't occur.

 

One of the reasons BW walked away was that the actions of others had the potential to leave BW facing a £12 million clawback when it was other bodies who had failed to deliver.

 

BW had claims in with HLF of the order of £1.25 million, which have to date not been paid, The entire £12 million grant being granted to Stroud DC.

 

As for scumbag, no you didn't say that, but you have so far expressed a view that the western K and A is a "slum" and that the actions of people who have no permanent mooring are, in effect, indefensible. implication you also link the two. To "liaise" when holding both those views would be extremely difficult.

 

As an aside, a defence lawyer is required to believe in his client's innocence, even if it is on a technicality. Otherwise the lawyer must seek mitigation, not a not guilty verdict.

[sueb]

As the manager of £12 million of the funding for that canal I can say, hand on heart, that that isn't true.

 

BW had underwritten the scheme, and had, at the time of their departure, a liability of around £2 million. This was on a risk register so it was entirely possible that the expenditure wouldn't occur.

 

One of the reasons BW walked away was that the actions of others had the potential to leave BW facing a £12 million clawback when it was other bodies who had failed to deliver.

 

BW had claims in with HLF of the order of £1.25 million, which have to date not been paid, The entire £12 million grant being granted to Stroud DC.

 

As for scumbag, no you didn't say that, but you have so far expressed a view that the western K and A is a "slum" and that the actions of people who have no permanent mooring are, in effect, indefensible. implication you also link the two. To "liaise" when holding both those views would be extremely difficult.

 

As an aside, a defence lawyer is required to believe in his client's innocence, even if it is on a technicality. Otherwise the lawyer must seek mitigation, not a not guilty verdict.

I apologise if my facts are wrong about the Cotswold canal. Our information came from a source that we had no reason to doubt. Although your last comment should be true unfortunately it doesn't always happen in practice. Some defendants aren't clever enough to think up the defence given in court.

Maybe we will meet when we come to the K & A and then we can discuss varied issues with a smile rather than getting email annoyed.

Sue

[Chris Pink]

does everybody cruise (and manage themselves) 'en bloc'?

 

Or is it more like a community claiming squatting rights along a particular bank?

 

Any discussion, like this one, that attempts to lump together the behaviour of a heterogeneous group is doomed to failure and is an expression of bigotry.

 

I don't understand what you mean by 'en bloc'. There are a set of rules set out in the 1995 Waterways Act and others that people must follow. It is in the interests of the boaters on the busiest section of the K and A to keep to these rules and, in the main, they do.

 

To give you a little context, there are, in a 14 mile length of canal over 100 hire boats, 150 liveaboard boats and two large marinas. Even without the summer influx of visitors to one of the most beautiful areas of canal in the country this is a lot of boats. It is inevitable that it will, at times, seem crowded.

 

To jump from that to assumptions about one group's behaviour is illogical and absurd.

 

Can you prove I have never liaised with BW and the boaters because I am afraid it is true that I have.

I agree it was a stupid comparison I had done a lot of locks that day. The comparison should have been with car parking and illegally living on the street. Stop making things up I haven't said I don't like diversity. I like continuously cruising.

So cleaning the towpath gives people the right to live illegally on their boats? I don't think so.

Sue

 

No I can't prove you have never liaised between BW and the boaters on the western Kennet and Avon but i do not accept that you have done so. If you would like to quote instances...

 

You have never 'liaised' between BW and any of the boaters that I know (and i know a lot) on the western end of the Kennet and Avon. You may, I do not know, have spoken to BW but that is not 'liaising'. For instance you have never spoken to me or any of the other boaters I know.

 

I would be interested in what you have done that you believe fits this description.

 

Again you use the bigotted and unhelpful expression 'live illegally on their boats'. For an officer of NABO this is hideously imprecise use of language - there is no such thing as illegal living on a boat.

 

And again I point out that to try and group over 150 boats into one set of behaviour is ridiculous.

Edited June 7, 2010 by Chris Pink

[deletedaccount]

Are we talking about a community of online residential moorings here? Or a community of continual cruisers (not in a marina; not on residential online moorings)?

 

I can't see any problem with the former. If the latter, how does that work -- does everybody cruise (and manage themselves) 'en bloc'?

 

Or is it more like a community claiming squatting rights along a particular bank?

 

I tend to see people every few months, somewhere between bristol and trowbridge, unless they're headed in the smae direction as me, in whcih case I see em for longer.

 

There's an enormous sense of community around the K&A, far more than any street I've lived on. The people are on the whole really friendly and the towpath is about the cleanest around. Compared to the rubbish dump alongside the oxford canal the K&A is pristine. And I'd have been on the community canal cleanup Chris mentioned if I hadn't been in Lithuania at the time.

 

As for people moaning about 'wrecks' and such I simply don't get it. I shared the locks down with a couple a few weeks ago and had to put up with them moaning all the way about rusty boats, boats that look funny, why don't they get them painted etc etc all the way. They just didn't seem to grasp that 1) not all boats are shiny polish wagons, 2) diversity is a good thing and 3) not everyone can afford brand new boats.

 

The one that really gets me is the "there's too many boats" moan. Too many for what? I'd say the vast majority of canal users (you know, the people that walk and cycle the towpath) love to see the weird and wonderful range of craft on the canal. The only people that moan about it are the people that use it the least.

[Lady Muck]

As for people moaning about 'wrecks' and such I simply don't get it. I shared the locks down with a couple a few weeks ago and had to put up with them moaning all the way about rusty boats, boats that look funny, why don't they get them painted etc etc all the way. They just didn't seem to grasp that 1) not all boats are shiny polish wagons, 2) diversity is a good thing and 3) not everyone can afford brand new boats.

 

This really does my head in, too. Why should someone have to have their boat a certain way in order to satisfy someone else? The beauty of boats for me is that they are mostly all different. I'd rather have a line of 'funny' boats to look at rather than a parade of identical *shiny semi trads, pram hoods aloft.

 

*Disclaimer, my boat is a semi trad and will soon be shiny as she is being repainted right now.

 

My partner says that pretty much all the boats he saw in the eighties were a bit scruffy, the shiny boat is a relatively new phenomenon.

 

It often seems to me to be reasonably well-off retired boaters judging younger, newcomers to the waterways by their standards.

 

Well, I'm a younger, newcomer to the waterways. I don't have as much money as you. I'm never going to be able to build up a big pension like you, things are different now.

 

I've had to wait a long time in order to get the money to paint my boat. I don't have as much free time as you, so I'm not about to spend it polishing my brass. Just because I'm not exactly like you it doesn't mean that I don't love the waterways, I do. I'm also going to be around long after you are gone, so it would be nice if we could get on, because it will be us, younger boaters who are caring about and treasuring the waterways in the future.

Edited June 7, 2010 by Lady Muck

[Henhouse]

Well for what it's worth I went from Great Bedwyn to Hungerford, and then back all the way to Bruce tunnel before returning to Bedwyn on sunday. All in all a 20 mile round trip.

 

Having been reading this thread I kept my eyes open and made a mental note of what I saw.

 

Boats 40+ of which 2 not displaying licence, 1 other with recently expired licence. One of the unlicenced boats was more akin to a floating skip.

 

There was space available on all visitor morrings ( 24 / 48 hr ), at Hungerford, Bedwyn and Crofton.

 

Between the church and swing bridge at Hungerford (14 day moorings) the depth of water was insuficient for a boat to moor.

 

The towpath was in an acceptable condition throughout. In open country the bankside vegetation was quite profuse, but had been flattened in places by boaters / anglers.

 

I only saw; 1 piece of litter ( twix wrapper)

1 Dog Turd ( large brown )

 

 

This may not be a scientific survey, but reflects what I saw on the day.

 

 

The anniversary event at Great Bedwyn was small but well organised with some good displays.

 

Looking at the pictures of the state the canal was in in the 1960's when it was largely derelict was a great reminder of how much we should be grateful for what we have.

 

The work and efforts of many people for many years have rescued a wreck. Perhaps we should all consider that, and appreciate it.

[Lady Muck]

Looking at the pictures of the state the canal was in in the 1960's when it was largely derelict was a great reminder of how much we should be grateful for what we have.

 

The work and efforts of many people for many years have rescued a wreck. Perhaps we should all consider that, and appreciate it.

 

Well said, Henhouse

[nb Innisfree]

I quite like the fact that some sections of the waterways are less than ideal and have to be tackled with a bit of adapting and ingenuity.

[Lady Muck]

Me too - I am looking forward to my eventual visit and to admire all of the funny boats.

[deletedaccount]

Boats 40+ of which 2 not displaying licence, 1 other with recently expired licence. One of the unlicenced boats was more akin to a floating skip.

 

I'm glad you put it like this, cos I don't display my licence, but I'm not unlicenced.

Edited June 8, 2010 by deletedaccount

[Kentboycamper2]

I used to live in Batheaston and walked the stretch of the K&A from Bathampton to Bath on a daily basis. I also cycle from Bath to Bradford on Avon regularly for leisure.

 

It is obvious that some boaters on this stretch - particularly closer to Bath - are using the ambiguity of the CC rules and not moving very far once their 14 days were up on a mooring. In fact I would go so far to say that a few have probably never moved at all.

 

I would suggest that a fair few boaters in that area work in Bath or the surrounding area and therefore find it difficult to move regularly to have access to work.

 

More moorings are needed in the area but even then these would probably be oversubscribed.

 

The answer is for BW to lobby for tightening of the CC rules which they could then manage with greater rigour which would alleviate some of the issues on this busy stretch.

 

As for the look of peoples boats, I like mine and I am not really bothered about anyone elses, live and let live,

Andy

[GSer]

As for the look of peoples boats, I like mine and I am not really bothered about anyone elses, live and let live,

Andy

 

I agree, there should be room for everybody on the canal network, it would be a poorer place without diversity. that will include to some extent the unlicenced (a minority IME) after all there has to be somebody doing wrong, if we were all perfect, we'd be chastised for minor infringements like 'wrong knots' and 'insufficient Lines' of even the horror offence of 'brass not being polished'

[deletedaccount]

you can polish brass?

[GSer]

you can polish brass?

 

 

Only at work , i seem to have an alergy to brass cleaning whilst on the boat, so much so that the new boat is chrome and stainless with very little brass (just the steerers controls at the moment)

[Naughty Cal]

Only at work , i seem to have an alergy to brass cleaning whilst on the boat, so much so that the new boat is chrome and stainless with very little brass (just the steerers controls at the moment)

 

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but you still have to clean stainless otherwise it looks crappy

 

(speaks from experience with all the stainless aboard Cal )

[FrigateCaptain]

Only at work , i seem to have an alergy to brass cleaning whilst on the boat, so much so that the new boat is chrome and stainless with very little brass (just the steerers controls at the moment)

 

 

 

 

 

 

Mmmmmmmmmmm........Brass........