Vintage engine cooling arrangements

[charles123]

Would appreciate opinions on the following: Do I need a conventional keel cooling arrangement with a vintage engine?. I have read that a Gardner is not a hot running engine, so my thoughts are to have a 15 gal calorifier, and a heat exchanger in the central heating circuit. This will be Alde gas central heating to radiators and while the engine is running heat will transfer to the central heating circuit which will be pumped round and the boiler will supplement the heat from the engine thus using less gas. In summer the central heating wont be on but as each rad will have a thermostatic valve one rad could be left on to provide some heat transfer from the engine cooling system.

 

If the engine is heating the calorifier, central heating heat exchanger and keel cooler will it produce enough heat to be at the correct operating temperature as most of the time the engine will be running at a high tickeover when cruising or charging and not under a heavy load

 

Charles

[dove]

I took our feed to the calorifier etc. after the thermostat, so the engine gets warm first then does all secondary heating. Then back to the inlet side of the pump.

 

Andrew

[Timleech]

The thermostat will keep the correct temperature, provided everything is tapped off after the thermostat. It's common to have the calorifier tapped in before the thermostat, often replacing the engine bypass pipe, which is a good way to heat your water quickly but not to heat the engine quickly. The ideal would be a second thermostat for the calorifier, this is sometimes done but not common.

 

Tim

[NB Alnwick]

Would appreciate opinions on the following: Do I need a conventional keel cooling arrangement with a vintage engine?. I have read that a Gardner is not a hot running engine, so my thoughts are to have a 15 gal calorifier, and a heat exchanger in the central heating circuit. This will be Alde gas central heating to radiators and while the engine is running heat will transfer to the central heating circuit which will be pumped round and the boiler will supplement the heat from the engine thus using less gas. In summer the central heating wont be on but as each rad will have a thermostatic valve one rad could be left on to provide some heat transfer from the engine cooling system.

 

If the engine is heating the calorifier, central heating heat exchanger and keel cooler will it produce enough heat to be at the correct operating temperature as most of the time the engine will be running at a high tickeover when cruising or charging and not under a heavy load

 

Charles

 

Whatever you do, you will (eventually) discover that there is no such thing as too much cooling and it is better to have more than enough than to have insufficient. Fit a domestic heat exchanger by all means but make sure you have a decent cooling system that will work on the hottest of days and when the engine needs to work hardest.

[alan_fincher]

What Tim said, surely ?

 

Unless you want to raw water cool it, if it has a skin tank and thermostat you will never over-cool it.

 

You can never have a "too big" skin tank in my view, other than the cost of a lot of anti-freeze.

 

Surely you will sometimes want to prove what your big engine is capable of in more "challenging" conditions, (where it's allowed!).

[andywatson]

Yes you will neeed a skin tank.

LW's run at 72-74 C.

Without a skin tank where would the reject heat go once the calorifier and C/H had warmed up.

 

I've got 2 skin tanks, 1 on each side and have never even had the first one fully hot but it's good to know that if you ever have to hammer the engine on a river that there is plenty of spare cooling capacity.

[LEO]

Hi,

 

Depends what make of engine - you mention Gardner - what size and type?

 

I run a 2LW with a keel cooling arrangement and have a calorifier - works a treat, but others with a a similar engine and cooling arramgement encounter problems with the engine not getting hot enough.

 

Best not to run them below manufacturer's recommended water temperatures.

 

Leo

[NB Alnwick]

Hi,

 

Depends what make of engine - you mention Gardner - what size and type?

 

I run a 2LW with a keel cooling arrangement and have a calorifier - works a treat, but others with a a similar engine and cooling arramgement encounter problems with the engine not getting hot enough.

 

Best not to run them below manufacturer's recommended water temperatures.

Leo

 

I said something similar in an earlier thread and although I wasn't exactly flamed it was politely pointed out that you cannot 'over-cool' vintage compression ignition engines that were designed to be able to run with raw water cooling!

[soldthehouse]

I said something similar in an earlier thread and although I wasn't exactly flamed it was politely pointed out that you cannot 'over-cool' vintage compression ignition engines that were designed to be able to run with raw water cooling!

Not having considered running an engine without skin tanks before would it be viable to consider using only a calorifier and if the temp got out of hand in a river run on say the 1st of August, then opening the hot water tap and thus running cold water in to the calorifier to act as a coolant against the coil

[LEO]

I said something similar in an earlier thread and although I wasn't exactly flamed it was politely pointed out that you cannot 'over-cool' vintage compression ignition engines that were designed to be able to run with raw water cooling!

 

Hi,

 

I found the earlier thread interesting, but surely if manufacturers spend money developing engines and producing manuals indicating how they should be used and maintained we should follow such guidelines.

 

Leo.

 

Not having considered running an engine without skin tanks before would it be viable to consider using only a calorifier and if the temp got out of hand in a river run on say the 1st of August, then opening the hot water tap and thus running cold water in to the calorifier to act as a coolant against the coil

 

I suspect 'no'.

 

Leo

[charles123]

Hi,

 

Depends what make of engine - you mention Gardner - what size and type?

 

I run a 2LW with a keel cooling arrangement and have a calorifier - works a treat, but others with a a similar engine and cooling arramgement encounter problems with the engine not getting hot enough.

 

Best not to run them below manufacturer's recommended water temperatures.

 

Leo

 

It is a 2LW and I have read about the engine not getting hot enough on various sites. What is different about the set up I am proposing is the heat exchanger for the central heating as I don't think many do it this way

 

While asking, a different question on the same theme, why does the top water rail on the 2LW have 4 take off points (all blanked off at present)?

 

Charles

[Timleech]

While asking, a different question on the same theme, why does the top water rail on the 2LW have 4 take off points (all blanked off at present)?

 

Charles

 

That's unusual, I'd expect to see two/one/none depending on the actual casting.

 

Tim

[charles123]

 

5 offtakes if you count the one on the end

 

Charles

[WotEver]

It is a 2LW and I have read about the engine not getting hot enough on various sites.

If it has a working thermostat and any take-offs are after said 'stat how can it over-cool? I'm the first to accept that I know little about vintage engines, but what am I missing?

 

Tony

[Timleech]

 

5 offtakes if you count the one on the end

 

Charles

 

'Strewth, never seen one like that before! One of those might take that thermometer, you'd have to check the measurements

 

If it has a working thermostat and any take-offs are after said 'stat how can it over-cool? I'm the first to accept that I know little about vintage engines, but what am I missing?

 

Tony

 

As has been said, it's common to have the calorifier takeoff before the thermostat (in this case, probably using the bypass pipe seen below the thermostat housing in Charles's pic). That may not be too bad, just slows down the warming up, but if you start adding other stuff there might be greater consequences.

 

Charles's engine seems to have the 'dual waxstat' thermostat housing, two thermostats side by side so that if one fails shut there's another to do the job at a slightly higher temperature.

 

Tim

Edited March 6, 2010 by Timleech

[LEO]

]

 

5 offtakes if you count the one on the end

 

Charles

 

Hi

 

It looks like a nice rebuild - not sure why the one you are fitting has so many take 'offs' - I suppose it could be what stock is available/adaptable, mine has 2, one at each end.

 

There have been reports of engines overcooling on other sites but these possible have problems caused by 'unusual' plumbing arrangements and oversized header tanks.

 

Agreed, with a thermostat fitted the cooling water should remain in the block until the stat opens and then more water is admitted and so on, until the whole system reaches an accepatable temperature.

 

Excellent engines. 2lw's are just right for narrowboats.

 

Interestingly, the guy who installed 112695 in the engine room (for a previous owner about 7 years ago) contacted me when I raised a query via the internet and gave me lots of useful info.

 

If you are into 'Gardners' the Gardner Engine Forum hold a rally every 2 years (last one in 2009) and there are some excellent engines on display (canal and vehicle usage).

[andywatson]

Hi,

 

Depends what make of engine - you mention Gardner - what size and type?

 

I run a 2LW with a keel cooling arrangement and have a calorifier - works a treat, but others with a a similar engine and cooling arramgement encounter problems with the engine not getting hot enough.

 

That's odd.

Is the right thermostat(s) installed and working properly?

Possibly it is piped up incorrectly?

 

As I understand it, unti the thermostat opens the coolant goes down the bypass pipe to the water pump inlet then straight back into the engine.

When the engine reaches operating temperature the thermostat opens and coolant then goes aound the cooling circuit.

 

I have seen the system arranged so that the calorifier is effectively plumbed into the bypass pipe.

This will get your hot water to the calorifier more quickly but delay angine warm up.

 

 

'Strewth, never seen one like that before! One of those might take that thermometer, you'd have to check the measurements

 

I agree.

It's got more holes than a flute.

[charles123]

The bypass pipe is there back to the waterpump see photo

Water Pump New Replacement Unit.Water Rail/Tube New Replacement Unit.

Water Thermostat Housing & Thermostat New Replacement Unit. New 2 thermostats, the lower being 60 degrees

As the water rail was new I suspect that its supplied with a variety of tappings to suit a number of applications that the might be needed on the engine

 

[LEO]

That's odd.

Is the right thermostat(s) installed and working properly?

Possibly it is piped up incorrectly?

 

As I understand it, unti the thermostat opens the coolant goes down the bypass pipe to the water pump inlet then straight back into the engine.

When the engine reaches operating temperature the thermostat opens and coolant then goes aound the cooling circuit.

 

I have seen the system arranged so that the calorifier is effectively plumbed into the bypass pipe.

This will get your hot water to the calorifier more quickly but delay angine warm up.

 

I agree it does seem odd - I can only relate to problems others have indicated they have by way of comments and photographs. It should be simple.

 

On 112695 there is one circuit which involves heating the water in the engine and the calorifier (the latter can be blanked off), when these have reached operating temperature the the thermostat opens to complete the circuit to the keel cooling tank. As has been stated there are 2 thermostats to try to overcome damage in the event of a main thermostat failure.

 

As I have stated it should be simple but give somebody a few lenghts of 22 and 15mm pipe and a bender and it is amazing what can happen.

 

My 2LW takes about 20 mins to heat up the engine and calorifier and following this the engine stops smoking.

 

As has been suggested, at least one of the spare holes will be utilised by a thermometer, take care if fitting one as it is easy to overtighten the unit and break the glass tube - spares are available at reasonable cost from a supplier in Scotland.

 

A similar thermostat can be fitted to the oil filter container, these take the same glass fitting.

 

These 'stats' (made in solid brass) can be purchased at great cost from Gardner Enthusiast, mine have a plastic/nylon block with a brass finish and are much cheaper.

 

I am not sure if a 60 degee thermostat will heat up the calorifier satisfactorily if fitted to a 2LW.

 

Hope this helps..

 

Leo

[steamraiser2]

Its important that the engine is run at a high enough temperature to avoid sludging and coking up. I've seen many engines that have clearly run too cold and underloaded for too long. A simple and effective way to acccurately control engine temperatures is by replacing the thermostat with a modern Amot valve. An Amot will manage the flow back to a skin tank and can regulate the inlet temperature to your calorifier far better than a hit and miss thermostat. Properly managed engine temps are very important with a Gardner considering their smoking habits!

 

One pont with the hook up of the heating with the heat exchanger is to be careful to avoid hydrostatic flow ( hot to cold) Fitting check valves to eliminate this will be a good plan. It would be a shame for your calorifier of hot water to be conducted back towards the engine block overnight.

[nb Innisfree]

Its important that the engine is run at a high enough temperature to avoid sludging and coking up. I've seen many engines that have clearly run too cold and underloaded for too long. A simple and effective way to acccurately control engine temperatures is by replacing the thermostat with a modern Amot valve. An Amot will manage the flow back to a skin tank and can regulate the inlet temperature to your calorifier far better than a hit and miss thermostat. Properly managed engine temps are very important with a Gardner considering their smoking habits!

 

One pont with the hook up of the heating with the heat exchanger is to be careful to avoid hydrostatic flow ( hot to cold) Fitting check valves to eliminate this will be a good plan. It would be a shame for your calorifier of hot water to be conducted back towards the engine block overnight.

 

Don't know what an Amot valve is but as wax thermostats progressively open and close they do maintain a constant engine coolant temp.

[FadeToScarlet]

Not having considered running an engine without skin tanks before would it be viable to consider using only a calorifier and if the temp got out of hand in a river run on say the 1st of August, then opening the hot water tap and thus running cold water in to the calorifier to act as a coolant against the coil

 

What if you're running down the river to get to a water point, because your tank's empty?

[soldthehouse]

What if you're running down the river to get to a water point, because your tank's empty?

Youve passed the test. Well done

[casper ghost]

Youve passed the test. Well done

 

Stupid boy...

[soldthehouse]

Stupid boy...

Stupid yes but boy, you need glasses Casp