The loss of another transport icon

[Hairy-Neil]

 

Liked that, however where can you pull over on a tram route?

 

 

Parking

239

 

Use off-street parking areas, or bays marked out with white lines on the road as parking places, wherever possible. If you have to stop on the roadside

 

* do not park facing against the traffic flow

* stop as close as you can to the side

 

Check before opening your door

 

* do not stop too close to a vehicle displaying a Blue Badge: remember, the occupant may need more room to get in or out

* you MUST switch off the engine, headlights and fog lights

* you MUST apply the handbrake before leaving the vehicle

* you MUST ensure you do not hit anyone when you open your door. Check for cyclists or other traffic

* it is safer for your passengers (especially children) to get out of the vehicle on the side next to the kerb

* put all valuables out of sight and make sure your vehicle is secure

* lock your vehicle

 

[Laws CUR reg 98, 105 & 107, RVLR reg 27 & RTA 1988 sect 42]

[Naughty Cal]

Similarly, the strong preference for travelling in private vehicles as opposed to supporting public transport must reflect our present day social attitudes . . .

 

Hmm thought about this one for a while, could i use the tram to get to work. The answer, well yes. It would mean i had to drive the 10 or so minutes to the tram terminus at Hillsborough, then pay to park there for the day, pay to get the tram into the city centre and then get a bus from the city centre to Ecclesall Road before walking for a further 10 minutes to get to work. And then do the whole process in reverse to get home. As i would have to get in the car anyway i think i will just stick to driving to work.

[mayalld]

Although not directly waterways related, it is worth mentioning that the above scene of a traditional double deck electric tram on a busy town street will disappear forever around midnight on Sunday, 8th November 2009. Electric trams have been serving the area for more than a Century and, as the last significant traditional street tramway, trams still trundle along the streets of Fleetwood to represent a mode of public transport that was otherwise eliminated from our towns in the early 1960s.

 

In recent years, it has become more and more obvious that the drivers of other road vehicles do not know how to cope with these traditional trams (that still stop in the middle of the road to let passenger board and disembark) so the tracks will be truncated at the end of the current 'illuminations season' and, in future, all trams will terminate on the segregated tracks at the edge of the town. It has to be admitted that, these days, the trams (which mostly date from the 1930s) do seem old, ungainly and slow in comparison with the modern buses that serve the same route. It was different in the past, when I first travelled to Blackpool in the 1960s the trams would often out-accelerate the buses and were very much quicker as well as being warmer in Winter and always more comfortable.

 

As part of an £80m 'modernisation' programme, the tram tracks in Blackpool have already been closed south of the 'Pleasure Beach' and, between now and 2012, the whole system is to be 'upgraded' to a modern 'Light Railway' system running on the route of the segregated tracks. New trains built in Austria will replace the traditional trams on regular services and a new depot is being built at Starr Gate to eliminate the short sections of street tramway that currently link the existing tram sheds and works at Blackpool's Rigby Road with the segregated main line.

 

An appeal is underway to establish a tramway museum in Blackpool and efforts are being made to ensure that some of the traditional trams will be retained for special excursions along the promenade.

 

Whilst this does indeed appear alarming;

• The street running section in Fleetwood will return to service in 2012 (as will the section to Starr Gate)
  
• The new trams will be to supplement the fleet, particularly on servces running north of Bispham Station, rather than to replace the existing fleet, and a fair proportion of the service between Starr Gate and Bispham Station will continue to use the heritage fleet.
  

Perhaps this report is more alarmist than alarming??

[Athy]

Thats doesnt help when you tyres get wedged in the tram tracks

 

There used to be a Yorkshire-built car called a Jowett which had narrow wheels. According to my Dad, it used to be a Sheffield saying that if you got your wheels in the tram tracks "Tha'll go all t'way to t'depot".

I'm surprised by Sheffielders' (of whom I infer that you are one) antagonism towards trams - the old ones used to be viewed with affection, and had such a reputation for comfort that they were known as "Rolls-Fearnleys" (Mr. Fearnley being a long-serving city official, maybe the mayor, but certainly responsible for transport). Perhaps the fact that they had to pay for the construction of the new tramways through council tax jaundiced Sheffielders' view of them?

Certainly, trams are even better when they run on reserved tracks (as, from memory, they used to do to Beauchief) where, except maybe at roundabouts, they do not interact with other traffic.

I've been pondering the locaton of Gleadless. Where we lived was definitely called Gleadless by locals - Town End was about half a mile away. The School I went to, in Hollinsend Road I think, was called Gleadless School. Gleadless Valley, which I can just remember being built, was a bit further away still and was divided into three bits: from memory, Rolleston, Hemsworth and the unfortunately but aptly-named Herdings. The estate had three very tall blocks of flats whch we could just see from our house. I think, from my occasional looks at the Sheffield Forum web site, that that's the area with the bad reputation.

I guess that if I drove a car I might find the trams annoying at times, though I would say that they brighten up the streets, not "litter" them - but the solution to that is to leave your car at home and use public transport for journeys within the city, surely? There seems to be plenty of it and it's a far more ecologically sound way to travel.

[NB Alnwick]

Whilst this does indeed appear alarming;

• The street running section in Fleetwood will return to service in 2012 (as will the section to Starr Gate)
  
• The new trams will be to supplement the fleet, particularly on servces running north of Bispham Station, rather than to replace the existing fleet, and a fair proportion of the service between Starr Gate and Bispham Station will continue to use the heritage fleet.
  

Perhaps this report is more alarmist than alarming??

 

My information is as up-to-date as is possible - according to the most recent information from Blackpool Transport the traditional trams cease to use the street running section at Fleetwood for good and it is likely that the new trams will terminate at a 'station' within the existing reserved section of track at the edge of the town. If you read my post again you will see that I have not said that the whole tramway is closing but that we will lose the traditional trams from this street section. A number of 'Farewell to Fleetwood' trips have been organised and some of the details are here:

 

http://www.tramsmagazine.co.uk/vmchk/Tram-...l-products.html

 

http://www.tramways-monthly.com/index.php/...-fleetwood.html

 

The new multiple-units will operate at a higher voltage than the present vehicles but it is hoped that some of the existing 'heritage' vehicles can be upgraded so that they can continue to operate but it is expected that they will be confined to the section along Blackpool's Promenade. This is the subject of campaigns and appeals for funding by a number of societies including the Fylde Tramway Society and the Lancastrian Transport Trust.

 

I didn't say or infer that the line south of the 'Pleasure beach' had been closed for good only that it is closed for 'modernisation'.

[Naughty Cal]

I guess that if I drove a car I might find the trams annoying at times, though I would say that they brighten up the streets, not "litter" them - but the solution to that is to leave your car at home and use public transport for journeys within the city, surely? There seems to be plenty of it and it's a far more ecologically sound way to travel.

 

See post above (somewhere).

 

Even if i substituted the tram for a bus i would still need 3 buses and a fair bit of walking to get to work. It just doesnt work for me and the OH. We both go to work in the same car as we work about 1/2 mile from each other. The cost in public transport fares would be far more than the cost in the car, plus i need my car for work.

[mayalld]

My information is as up-to-date as is possible - according to the most recent information from Blackpool Transport the traditional trams cease to use the street running section at Fleetwood for good and it is likely that the new trams will terminate at a 'station' within the existing reserved section of track at the edge of the town. If you read my post again you will see that I have not said that the whole tramway is closing but that we will lose the traditional trams from this street section. A number of 'Farewell to Fleetwood' trips have been organised and some of the details are here:

 

Yes, it is my understanding that the normal Service beyond Bispham will use the new trams, but is that a huge problem? Frankly, it will be quite nice to be able to ride in a little more comfort to Cleveleys and Fleetwood than is presently the case.

 

I see nothing to suggest that the new trams will terminate at Fishermans Rest (if that was the intention, why are they relaying the on-street tracks in Fleetwood).

 

Nor have I seen anything to suggest that the voltage is changing.

 

In 2012, the service to Fleetwood will be operated by newer vehicles. The service from Bispham to Starr Gate will be mixed, and there will be occasional Heritage trams in Fleetwood.

 

Doesn't sound like a disaster to me.

[NB Alnwick]

Yes, it is my understanding that the normal Service beyond Bispham will use the new trams, but is that a huge problem? Frankly, it will be quite nice to be able to ride in a little more comfort to Cleveleys and Fleetwood than is presently the case.

 

I see nothing to suggest that the new trams will terminate at Fishermans Rest (if that was the intention, why are they relaying the on-street tracks in Fleetwood).

 

Nor have I seen anything to suggest that the voltage is changing.

 

In 2012, the service to Fleetwood will be operated by newer vehicles. The service from Bispham to Starr Gate will be mixed, and there will be occasional Heritage trams in Fleetwood.

 

Doesn't sound like a disaster to me.

 

I did not describe it as a disaster. What I said was: "the above scene of a traditional double deck electric tram on a busy town street will disappear forever around midnight on Sunday, 8th November 2009." That much is fact and I was referring specifically to the accompanying photograph that I took on Monday last. Some people may think the changes sufficiently significant to avail themselves of a last look or even, as I did, a last chance to ride on a double decker tram in service on a traditional British street tramway.

 

My information came directly from the Blackpool Transport employees to whom I addressed my enquiries on Monday last - so it is as up-to-date as possible. To say "I see nothing to suggest . . ." or "Nor have I seen anything to suggest . . ." is hardly satisfactory evidence that my information may not be factual.

[Athy]

See post above (somewhere).

 

Even if i substituted the tram for a bus i would still need 3 buses and a fair bit of walking to get to work. It just doesnt work for me and the OH. We both go to work in the same car as we work about 1/2 mile from each other. The cost in public transport fares would be far more than the cost in the car, plus i need my car for work.

 

Fair comment. I guess that as I have never been a driver I have always chosen domiciles from which I could easily get to work (I lived on site at two of my jobs), certainly a three-bus commute would probably mean that you'd be nackered by the time you got to work! . Do you think that if all the Sheffield trams ran on reserved tracks there would be lass grousing about them?

[mayalld]

I did not describe it as a disaster. What I said was: "the above scene of a traditional double deck electric tram on a busy town street will disappear forever around midnight on Sunday, 8th November 2009." That much is fact and I was referring specifically to the accompanying photograph that I took on Monday last. Some people may think the changes sufficiently significant to avail themselves of a last look or even, as I did, a last chance to ride on a double decker tram in service on a traditional British street tramway.

 

My information came directly from the Blackpool Transport employees to whom I addressed my enquiries on Monday last - so it is as up-to-date as possible. To say "I see nothing to suggest . . ." or "Nor have I seen anything to suggest . . ." is hardly satisfactory evidence that my information may not be factual.

 

All the evidence is that traditional double deck trams will continue to run in Fleetwood for special events.

[NB Alnwick]

All the evidence is that traditional double deck trams will continue to run in Fleetwood for special events.

 

Well I hope that is correct but if not, by 2012 it will be too late . . .

 

Fair comment. I guess that as I have never been a driver I have always chosen domiciles from which I could easily get to work (I lived on site at two of my jobs), certainly a three-bus commute would probably mean that you'd be nackered by the time you got to work! . Do you think that if all the Sheffield trams ran on reserved tracks there would be lass grousing about them?

 

Probably not - reading 'between the lines' there seem to be a lot of complaints about these systems wherever they are introduced - especially in Edinburgh where the amount of disruption during construction seems to be the main complaint with the amount of money being spent coming a close second . . .

Edited October 14, 2009 by NB Alnwick

[Naughty Cal]

. Do you think that if all the Sheffield trams ran on reserved tracks there would be lass grousing about them?

 

No

[Laurence Hogg]

Learn how to drive.

Too true, how about slippy manhole covers, grids etc. Very sad about blackpool.

[Naughty Cal]

Too true, how about slippy manhole covers, grids etc.

 

You can straddle those. The tram lines are neatly positioned so that one is under each wheel (and no most of the time you can not just go to one side of them they have put kerbs and silly islands in the way)

 

Manhole covers can also be used to your advantage (especially in the big ford with RWD) They can shove the back end around further for you. Nothing like a bit of tail end swinging

Edited October 14, 2009 by Phylis

[Athy]

.

reading 'between the lines' there seem to be a lot of complaints about these systems wherever they are introduced - especially in Edinburgh where the amount of disruption during construction seems to be the main complaint with the amount of money being spent coming a close second . . .

 

Not unlike when the London tube was built, and before that the railways, and previous to that the canals! Can you imagine what London would be like now if protests against the building of the London Underground had been successful?

[mayalld]

Not unlike when the London tube was built, and before that the railways, and previous to that the canals! Can you imagine what London would be like now if protests against the building of the London Underground had been successful?

 

Interesting parallel.

 

Even LU still occasionally run heritage rolling stock.

[NB Alnwick]

Not unlike when the London tube was built, and before that the railways, and previous to that the canals! Can you imagine what London would be like now if protests against the building of the London Underground had been successful?

 

Well there are many people in the community who would have us all back where we were 250 years ago before the industrial revolution. Bring on the horses and windsails . . .

[Derek R.]

Well there are many people in the community who would have us all back where we were 250 years ago before the industrial revolution. Bring on the horses and windsails . . .

 

They are called 'Envirofascists'. Wind is notoriously unreliable in supplying power when most needed. Hydro power is expensive, and Solar is fine for small consumption, if you don't mind giving up most of our green and pleasant to fields of cells. Winter? Don't ask, freeze and die might be one answer.

 

I have nothing against horses, though the mountains of dung might once again be another 'problem'.

 

With regard to Edinburgh tram project, Councillor Burns got a drubbing in the press over that, and the cost (as always) would and hopefully has, been spent on improving the existing bus fleet which is by far a more flexible form of transport, able to incorporate new housing estates with vehicle interchangeability to other depots and areas - without the need for steel rails embedded in road surfaces, and tons of overhead wiring and its infrastructure which is the tram/trolleybuses Achilles Heel.

 

Another one from several years ago:

 

" Flexibility is key when providing public transport to maximise on the

available vehicles to suit existing or new routes for the cost effectiveness

of supplying a public service. What improvements to the existing flexible

network of buses could be provide with £350m?

 

Instead, the Scottish Executive is prepared to gamble on a 'business' of

installing a web of steel set in the roads and over the heads of Edinburgh's

population. Beware the spider in this web - it's name is 'bankruptcy'. The

attraction could be fatal."

 

I had not noticed London Underground running 'Heritage Stock', hardly something that the average commuter or tourist is likely to see in a deep tunnel, though I have in the past myself taken an 'Enthusiasts Special' in 1938 Stock. And whilst we did go sub-surface for a while, most of the running was overground - Amersham to Baker Street, around some rarely used City sidings, and back out to Amersham. A 'strange' day out.

 

Opposition to the Underground system was almost certainly there from the outset, just as it was for the canal builders and the railways that followed. But by and large they represented advancements in communication and services - with the Underground, once all was complete, it remained unseen and Underground!

 

Steel rails in roadways were something to wonder at, with the seemingly effortless and smooth conveyance they provided in comparison to that which had gone before. Roads were poor, even in urban areas, and the 'New' steel road carried their swaying ships two floors high without the bone jarring jolts from cart and carriage, must have been a sight - especially at night. My Grandmother recalled the first trams along Wood Green High Road, great groaning islands of light, she watched them pass from the balcony of her flat in amazement. But as traffic increased, and the boarding and alighting became ever more risky from their central running road, their days were soon numbered. Go take a ride on the trams at Crick, and the BCM, or Trolleybuses at Sandtoft - nostalgia is a main driving force amongst many who would have us back on trams - where economics are only whispered about behind backs. Look up 'nostalgia' in a dictionary - it's been classified as a medical condition.

 

Derek

[RLWP]

<snip>Look up 'nostalgia' in a dictionary - it's been classified as a medical condition.

 

Derek

 

Well yes, but only in Medieval and Renaissance times. I'm not sure that I want to go back to those old-fashioned medical ways.

 

Richard

[Derek R.]

Well yes, but only in Medieval and Renaissance times. I'm not sure that I want to go back to those old-fashioned medical ways.

 

Richard

 

Nostalgia - yes I love it too: King's Cross steam 1950's; London

[Pluto]

I have nothing against horses, though the mountains of dung might once again be another 'problem'.

 

Derek

Ah, there's a good canal traffic. In the late nineteenth century, the L&LC were carrying over 100,000 tons of night soil and street sweepings out of Liverpool each year. No wonder West Lancs, where it was all dumped, is such a good potato and carrot-growing area!

[greywolf]

Yes! The Hong Kong system originated in 1904 and it currently boasts the largest double decker tram system in the world with over 150 vehicles in service everyday. The tramway is regarded by the chinese as an important element in their heritage and culture - even so it is quite remarkable how a traditional 'British tramway' survives in such a modern city.

 

 

Edited to add link . . .

 

yes a guide told us that double Decker was the way to go in Hong Kong,a couple of years ago.as they have the same problems we have to many people to little space.I went back there with my dad to try and find the places i would have been to when i was a baby/toddler,still some things there from 51 years ago.

[fender]

One of my best memories of Blackpool trams is the Fleetwood Tuesdays which I used to visit regularly, as this was the highlight on the system. These were the best way to see every possible working tram turfed out of Rigby Road depot. Even the boats managed to reach Fleetwood on those occasions. It was always great to see the lines of trams queuing up outside the market, and the jams caused by the trams, buses, cars and just about everything. I have some great photographs and films and memories of the Blackpool system.

 

It is NOT the end of traditional street trams in the UK. Birkenhead's tramway will still have traditional trams in the streets (as opposed to on the streets) even though its mostly reserved track on the roadside. The Douglas Horse, MER, and Great Orme still operate traditional street sections in whole or part.

 

Alas the famed Blackpool motto "Always a tram in sight" will sadly now have to read "Always a modern tram in sight."

 

 

 

Interesting parallel.

 

Even LU still occasionally run heritage rolling stock.

 

and the Isle of Wight operates a heritage service complete with 1938 stock!!

[magpie patrick]

Well there are many people in the community who would have us all back where we were 250 years ago before the industrial revolution. Bring on the horses and windsails . . .

 

I know you're not one of these people but what a lot of people forget is that the population of England in 1801 was around 8 million, 80% of whom lived in the countryside, heck of a lot easier to manage with horses and carts in that scenario

 

England's population is now around 55 million, with 7% living outside urban areas, which means there are fewer people in rural areas now then there were in 1801, even though the country has 7 times the population

 

Not even the most ardent environmentalist has yet suggested culling 47 million people in the interests of sustainability!

 

(and to avoid those who would like to misinterpret, I'm not suggesting it either!)

[Derek R.]

There is little future for modern trams on modern or even old roads, for the interference with conventional rubber tyred traffic is too great, (reserved track may be a different kettle of sparks). Some will advocate removal of the rubber tyred traffic such as has been done in Croydon and elsewhere, but servicing commerce with commodities suffers, and fares when used for commuting totted up on an annual basis will often outstrip the cost of running a small car, which is today's ultimate convenience transport and the scapegoat for taxes and all the environmental fascists. (Don't worry, I care for the environment as much as anyone, but do not want to freeze to death because someone bans me from burning a stick, or cannot afford to switch something on).

 

Despite modern trams being dramatically attractive (to some), they, like all the other modern buses we see, will be treated with a similar contempt as were all the Trolleybuses, Daimlers, Guys, Leylands, AEC's etc., when they were thick as thieves on the streets. The very fact that so many lasted for so long made them stand like bastions of solidarity and regularity, and familiar to generations - something sorely missing from today's man made environment. But it is largely nostalgia that is the driving force behind the re-introduction of trams, anyone costing up a new tram network and suggesting it is more economical than a fleet of motor buses might well have been headed for a padded cell not so long ago. No, what makes the likes of the old Fleetwood trams and all the other old trams that are still trundling and groaning along on rails is the fact that they ARE old, and that they represent something from a persons past to show their children - tourist attractions! And most young people love them because they are so different from the norm.

 

I well remember travelling on 1938 stock, short of a few even older carriages that was all there was on the Piccadilly, and a trip on the Circle and Central lines was a foreign Country! Pity the Izzle of Wit hasn't got their little tank engines still, with their distinctive steam air compressors beside the smoke box. But it runs! And with old stock - That's the attraction. Another gem in the historic transport world is the Isle of Man. 100 year old stock there on the Manx Electric Railway, and their steam railway is possibly the only passenger railway system in the world still running steam and stock that are original to the system and in use for its original purpose - passenger carrying. But would they be so popular if all that old stock was replaced with modern equipment? Not a chance.

 

Take Southend-on-Sea Pier railway, the tragic, and avoidable spate of fires has helped in no small way to eradicate a Victorian piece of engineering, but also an attraction that drew the crowds. The little electric green and cream trains by Metro-Camell of Birmingham, had four wheel sets that sent a very characteristic sound all along the shore from almost Shoeburyness to Leigh. Those trains are gone, and whilst the replacement diesel sets still run the rails in limited form, they are not the same, even the sound is 'wrong' through different wheel spacing. Furthermore, Southend Council have aided and abetted in the wanton destruction of their transport heritage by stripping out the old wooden ticket office, by sweeping all away and replacing with acres of glass and tiling, the new ticket counter is brash and wide open. People come and see little attraction in that, and often wander off elsewhere. Hidden away, quite out of sight, is a doorway leading down into the former railway workshops, where a museum of Southend, its characters, pier and pier railway is set up - complete with several of the older green and cream carriages. Well worth seeking out for those visiting - but sadly almost totally ignored by the modernistic Council. Just a pound to get entry, but opening times limited.

 

Modern transport systems; over complex, constantly changing, no attachment to any generation or era, and hostile to the psyche.

 

Derek

 

Not even the most ardent environmentalist has yet suggested culling 47 million people in the interests of sustainability!

(and to avoid those who would like to misinterpret, I'm not suggesting it either!)

 

Don't you believe it! How about 47 billion? It's on the cards and has been since the nineteen twenties. Levels of control have been growing ever since, But this is a subject best researched elsewhere - however, it DOES need to be researched by everyone. There is a wake up call that will make many disbelieve what is happening all around. Things are not as they seem.

 

Derek