Music Production and Power Consumption

[kendo]

Hi People.

 

Was wondering if you could help me.

 

I make computer based music, and want to do so when afloat.

How feasible is a fullsize music PC, monitor, and a television for the missus, all simultaneously.

I know laptops are more efficient, but we use that for the net, banking, etc. I'd much prefer a

comfortable full size keyboard and monitor to work with.

 

Is it possible? And if so, how much would it cane the batteries?

Or do we have to take it in turns, on alternate evenings? Will anything

go pop, if we turn on more than one device at once? (please excuse my

ignorance).

 

When 'on a roll', i like to work through the night (on headphones, naturally)

and was i wondering if this will be possible on a narrowboat? What's the most

"life" i could expect from say.... an average battery bank of 4 leisures.

 

We intend to CC, and can top up during the day. But I was wondering

if i could draw on the experiences of the forum, before we set off.

 

Any advice appreciated.

thankyou.

 

ken

[Proper Job]

You are probably playing with two of the biggest continuous users of power on a boat.

A full sized PC will need a 240v ac power supply with a compatible inverter.

The TV could be 12v but even a good one takes about 5a in use

 

Add to that working through the night (lights etc)

 

4 x 110 amp hour is a common domestic set up = 440 amp hours

 

Charge to 80% - discharge to 50% gives you 132 amp hours of usable power (the 80% to 50% is regarded as a good battery management regime). 220 amp hours if you can get them charged up to 100% every day.

 

Its difficult to say if you will be able to work through the night. It sounds like a heavy demand

[Chris Pink]

Laptop every time, especially for working into the night. I have a TC firewire 'soundcard' and amp and speakers but only use them for mission critical, for most things it's the laptop and headphones - very good headphones mind - mastering is best done in the day anyway.

 

The main issue is that laptop keyboards are crap for DAW transport control whereas a full size keyboard generally dedicates the number pad but then desk space is also an issue so i just put up with it.

 

The key is to be versatile, make your setup work in a few different ways depending on whether you have generator plugged in or are trying to run all night. It's a paraphrase of "you can't please everyone all of the time". And switch things off when not in use such as the master keyboard or external drives.

 

And with a bit of faff you can set a laptop to use less power in lots of ways, mainly be running them slower but if you're editing a stereo track you don't need full on 24 track with plugins processing power.

 

oh and learn an acoustic instrument, runs on jam sandwiches and there's no byelaw against them late at night.

Edited September 1, 2009 by Chris Pink

[grahoom]

Hello Ken,

 

You might find this site of use.

 

http://www.lowpowerpcs.co.uk/

[kendo]

A full sized PC will need a 240v ac power supply with a compatible inverter.

thanks for the reply, Steve. I would be looking to upgrade domestic power to maybe 6x, but

we're assuming most boats will have 4x to start with. I read (somewhere on here, i think)

that boaters can replace their 240v PSU lump for a 12v one? Any experience with that?

 

It sounds like a heavy demand

nod. i appreciate that.

 

The main issue is that laptop keyboards are crap for DAW transport control

precisely. thanks for the reply, chris. our laptop is pants, compared to the DAW PC.

i'll sit with the keyboard on my knees if i have to. touch typing, photo editing, games,

music, etc... we would like a desktop for entertainment. appreciate that space is going

to be at a premium. but as music is my "job", a full size is fundemental.

 

switch things off when not in use such as the master keyboard

master keyboard is a korg nanoKey (USB driven).

 

You might find this site of use.

hi graham. thanks for the link. juicy PCs! i suspect many

of them will be out of my price range. already have a good

DAW, but will definitely research more down this avenue.

 

 

thankyou.

[kendo50]

thanks for the reply, Steve. I would be looking to upgrade domestic power to maybe 6x, but

we're assuming most boats will have 4x to start with. I read (somewhere on here, i think)

that boaters can replace their 240v PSU lump for a 12v one? Any experience with that?

 

 

nod. i appreciate that.

 

 

precisely. thanks for the reply, chris. our laptop is pants, compared to the DAW PC.

i'll sit with the keyboard on my knees if i have to. touch typing, photo editing, games,

music, etc... we would like a desktop for entertainment. appreciate that space is going

to be at a premium. but as music is my "job", a full size is fundemental.

 

 

master keyboard is a korg nanoKey (USB driven).

 

mmmmmmmm kendo i'm kendo 50 thought for a mo i was going mad thinking i was reading my own post that i couldn't remember making confused i am.

Edited September 1, 2009 by kendo50

[Chris Pink]

master keyboard USB driven

 

So is mine but I still switch it off as it uses anything up to 500 mA

 

important: milliamps count !!

[Proper Job]

A lot of USB drive devices use a lot of power.

 

How quickly does the battery go flat on a laptop with a 3G dongle connected! Damn fast in my experience.

[kendo]

So is mine but I still switch it off as it uses anything up to 500 mA

thanks for the tip. i hadn't realised the drain would be that dramatic.

 

A lot of USB drive devices use a lot of power.

ah. i think i'll keep my QY20 as backup. i used to get 200 hours out of it.

(on it's own internal batteries). just have to remember to turn it off when

i've finished plinking the keys. yet to experience the joys of dongle drain.

but thanks for the warning.

 

@Kendo50 pleased to meet you.

[WotEver]

I would be looking to upgrade domestic power to maybe 6x, but we're assuming most boats will have 4x to start with.

 

Hi Kendo,

 

You can certainly up your battery count (there's one in our marina with 10 x 110AH), and you're obviously correct in assuming that would give you more power if you do so, BUT.... you then have to charge those batteries up again for the next night.

 

However, there's no point whatsoever in guessing here.

 

To truly answer your original question you need to do an accurate power audit - look at how much power each piece of equipment uses (don't forget lighting), and calculate that for the maximum length of time they will be used. Then you'll know how much battery capacity you'll need, and armed with that knowledge we can all then discuss the feasibility of 1. having a battery bank of that size and, more importantly, 2. how (or if) you could recharge such a bank on a daily basis.

 

Cheers,

Tony

[blackrose]

I'd say if you were doing it for fun then it might work but if you're doing it for a living then you'd need shore power or a good generator. Bearing in mind that all engines have to be switched off at 8pm (unless you're nowhere near houses or other baots), then the latter option probably wouldn't work. My neighbour is a drum & bass producer and has a professional recording studio in his boat, but we're all on shore power.

[kendo]

To truly answer your original question you need to do an accurate power audit

- look at how much power each piece of equipment uses (don't forget lighting), and calculate

that for the maximum length of time they will be used.

nod. understood. just wondered if i could touch base with liveaboard music producers

before taking the plunge, and deciding what kit to take afloat, etc.

 

Then you'll know how much battery capacity you'll need, and armed with that

knowledge we can all then discuss the feasibility

nod, i appreciate that. but i don't even have a boat yet. trawling through the threads i

noticed that people do run full size PC's. HOWEVER... thanks to Grahoom, i've decided to bale

on my home based DAW, and look into a low power (allegedly 10w) solution. Judging by their

stats, i can run one of those much longer than i could my domestic PC. Even the quadcore

monster (40w) is much more efficient than my current desktop machine. With a smaller footprint

too, this seems to be the way to a win/win situation.

 

glad to hear that battery banks can be upped to 10x if needed.

and appreciate that they are going to take correspondingly longer to charge up.

thanks for chipping in, WotEver..

 

I'd say if you were doing it for fun then it might work but if you're doing

it for a living then you'd need shore power or a good generator.

hello blackrose. sorry, i don't follow the logic. isn't a professional person

more able, and willing to jump harder over any potential obstacles? the person

doing it for fun, would be more likely to accept a maximum 4 hour session, surely?

I'm professional. but i also want to CC. i appreciate it will be a juggling act,

and i'm willing to accept a compromise to attain both goals. 'professional' (in my

own case) doesn't equate to a stack of outboard gear. been there, done that. everything

will be software driven, and it's the length of time i can use it, which is the most

important factor. thanks for pitching in though. it's good to gather as many different

views as possible. cheers..

[Robbo]

How feasible is a fullsize music PC, monitor, and a television for the missus, all simultaneously.

I know laptops are more efficient, but we use that for the net, banking, etc. I'd much prefer a

comfortable full size keyboard and monitor to work with.

 

Is it a full size PC that you really need or just the monitor / keyboard? A modern laptop should be more than powerful enough, just plug a monitor / keyboard into it! This will save space and power at the same time!

[Robbo]

nod, i appreciate that. but i don't even have a boat yet. trawling through the threads i

noticed that people do run full size PC's. HOWEVER... thanks to Grahoom, i've decided to bale

on my home based DAW, and look into a low power (allegedly 10w) solution. Judging by their

stats, i can run one of those much longer than i could my domestic PC. Even the quadcore

monster (40w) is much more efficient than my current desktop machine. With a smaller footprint

too, this seems to be the way to a win/win situation.

 

Remember those PC's aren't the quickest in the world, you can get more CPU power out of a laptop per watt than those.

 

glad to hear that battery banks can be upped to 10x if needed.

and appreciate that they are going to take correspondingly longer to charge up.

thanks for chipping in, WotEver..

 

I would be looking at a diesel genny if you still end up been power hungry.

[black]

if it was me id have a separate bank of batteries just for the pc and fed by its own alternator. also helped along with solar panels on the roof.

this way you wont affect the domestic batteries and tv can still be on.

but would there be room for 3 alternators?

[AjW]

You'll probably need a UPS if you're running a desktop from batteries+inverter. Or a sharp eye on the voltmeter...

[Chris J W]

You'll probably need a UPS if you're running a desktop from batteries+inverter. Or a sharp eye on the voltmeter...

 

I was just about to say the same thing. I would suspect that the best time to first use it would be when you're on charge, though. (Engine running, genny or shoreline) as I bet they suck up a lot of juice initially.

[kendo]

if it was me id have a separate bank of batteries just for the pc and fed by its

own alternator. also helped along with solar panels on the roof. this way you wont affect the

domestic batteries and tv can still be on. but would there be room for 3 alternators?

thanks for the suggestion, black. my heart lept at this idea, because the studio power drain

would be ringfenced from the main boat supply (heaven help me if i drained all the batts and the

TV didn't work). We're hoping to get a 57' boat, so figure there would be enough room. my

question on this method is... how 'fiddly' would that extra bank be? Could i get an

intelligent/autoswitching solution that would charge the domestics, and then top up the studio

bank? I anticipate this will lead to the necessity of more hours cruising, or the use of a genny

to top up the studio bank.

 

I would be looking at a diesel genny if you still end up been power hungry.

nod. we'll be investing in a genny, even if only for an emergency use.

hoping to add some solar too. which i guess, to a greater degree, depends

on what the vessel we purchase already has onboard.

 

If i have to manage batteries, i think i'd rather do it on the boat as a whole, rather than diddle

about charging a laptop. the easiest answer is "get yourself a laptop", i agree. but i just don't

like them. i cut my teeth on Amigas and Atari ST, so i don't need the "quickest PC in the

world", just one that works, and has a stable midiclock.

 

The "fit-PCs" fail on the '5 applications open at once' stage, but they are sufficient for music playback,

entertainment, and day to day tasks. At 10w draw, i think they're probably better than most laptops?

For DAW, Aleutia's most power hungry quad core beast only draws 75w. yes, i know some people will

laugh or swoon at that, but that's half of my current desktop draw (as far as i can ascertain). and

there's several models and a fair bit of choice, in between. the laptop we have is fine for taking out to

gigs, but i wouldn't want to be stuck on the thing all of the time.

 

thanks for the suggestions though people.

much appreciated.

 

ken

[Captain Lockheed]

The advice to "get a laptop" whether you like the beasts or not is the best advice I have read so far. (IMnotsoHO)

 

I have replaced all of our computers with laptops several years ago, for the following reasons.

 

Laptops are dead portable, and self contained. Most laptops can be docked with a docking station which allows the use of a full size keyboard and larger screen and most docking stations have usb and other interfaces for permanent installations, so you can get all the good ness of a full blown PC, but still retain the portability and low power consumption of a laptop.

 

If you are a muso, the extra quietness of a laptop versus a full PC has to be a good thing.

 

By carefully selecting your large screen you could end up with multiple functionality, as I have. I can easily switch between a single screen or dual screen setup. (Dual screens are very useful for certain parts of the music production process apparently) or I can use the latop internal screen and the second screen for video, (I bought an LG M1717a, which does computer scart and composite inputs...)

 

best of all, since you want to run at least 2 computers from the get go, by using 2 of the same, if one breaks you may be able to easily swap the hard drive into the other to complete mission critical work. (Its a strategy thats kept my g/f's small business going in the past...)

 

Since I know a bit about laptops I'd have to recomend DELL TOSHIBA or IBM as your best bet, (if you can get away with the not so cutting edge performance, use ex-corporate second hand laptops, they are usually initially bought by people who recognise a good machine and spares and accessories are cheaper and easier to find, when you want them.)

 

ABOVE ALL, Once it has taken a charge, take the battery out of the laptop if you are going to leave it running on mains or 12v power... UNless you really, really need the insurance against power failure that the laptop internal battery offers...

 

Also consider tablet P.C.'s. My toshiba portege folds flat and the stylus / screen interface has much to recomend it for certain things...

 

Just my two pennorth worth, AND I don't yet have any practical narrow boat experience. (although I have 35 years of practical electronics and computer experience, and I've been planning and implementing a low powered life for quite a while now.. )

 

Cheers. Steve C.

[Night Hawk]

We deliver the AS/A2 music technology A level at school and have found the Mac laptops to be first rate - Unless you run a professional recording studio and need pro tools, the Macs have been superb - we use Logic (and final cut for the videos) - power consumption is well within even a small inverter's capabilities. Having used both PC and Mac platforms to run music software, Macs win hand down - We have 2 octave kepboards by every Mac laptop (and our suite of iMacs) with a couple of midi pianos for those who feel they have to have 8 octaves of weighted action!

 

I spent most of the summer using Mac laptops and midi keyboards on our 800W inverter running Sibelius, Logic and Reason without a problem...whilst the kids were watching the TV and DVD player.

 

In terms of processing power, the Macs, being simpler creatures, run the same software much faster than PCs...once again I would state that I'd never use PCs to run music software again!

 

Good luck,

 

A x

[tomsk]

The advice to "get a laptop" whether you like the beasts or not is the best advice I have read so far. (IMnotsoHO)

 

I have replaced all of our computers with laptops several years ago, for the following reasons.

 

Laptops are dead portable, and self contained. Most laptops can be docked with a docking station which allows the use of a full size keyboard and larger screen and most docking stations have usb and other interfaces for permanent installations, so you can get all the good ness of a full blown PC, but still retain the portability and low power consumption of a laptop.

 

If you are a muso, the extra quietness of a laptop versus a full PC has to be a good thing.

 

By carefully selecting your large screen you could end up with multiple functionality, as I have. I can easily switch between a single screen or dual screen setup. (Dual screens are very useful for certain parts of the music production process apparently) or I can use the latop internal screen and the second screen for video, (I bought an LG M1717a, which does computer scart and composite inputs...)

 

best of all, since you want to run at least 2 computers from the get go, by using 2 of the same, if one breaks you may be able to easily swap the hard drive into the other to complete mission critical work. (Its a strategy thats kept my g/f's small business going in the past...)

 

Since I know a bit about laptops I'd have to recomend DELL TOSHIBA or IBM as your best bet, (if you can get away with the not so cutting edge performance, use ex-corporate second hand laptops, they are usually initially bought by people who recognise a good machine and spares and accessories are cheaper and easier to find, when you want them.)

 

ABOVE ALL, Once it has taken a charge, take the battery out of the laptop if you are going to leave it running on mains or 12v power... UNless you really, really need the insurance against power failure that the laptop internal battery offers...

 

Also consider tablet P.C.'s. My toshiba portege folds flat and the stylus / screen interface has much to recomend it for certain things...

 

Just my two pennorth worth, AND I don't yet have any practical narrow boat experience. (although I have 35 years of practical electronics and computer experience, and I've been planning and implementing a low powered life for quite a while now.. )

 

Cheers. Steve C.

 

 

Sound advice Mr Calvert.

[kendo]

The advice to "get a laptop" whether you like the beasts or not is the best advice I have read so far.

thanks for the advice, Captain. appreciate your considered opinion.

 

ABOVE ALL, Once it has taken a charge, take the battery out of the

laptop if you are going to leave it running on mains or 12v power... UNless you really, really

need the insurance against power failure that the laptop internal battery offers

i don't... i save regularly, and with different session file names. i *thought* taking the

battery out might make life easier, and i'm happy to see this confirmed. cheers..

 

I spent most of the summer using Mac laptops and midi keyboards on our 800W

inverter running Sibelius, Logic and Reason without a problem...whilst the kids were watching the TV and DVD player

thanks Night Hawk. that's reassuring.

 

 

main reason for wanting desktop PC was my Creamware/Scope 32bit IDE pulsar2 card.

integral part of music production for several years.

our band uses ableton live!, live. and i also feel the need to run Amiga

and Atari ST emulators occasionally. would rather eat my own liver than

use an AppleMac. but i appreciate people's kind advice, and am giving the

matter serious thought & consideration.

 

thankyou everyone.

ken

[Lou - Rowanberry]

Hi Ken,

 

I realise your post re music producing on board was a few years back and prior to you buying a boat but I wonder if you could advise?

 

I've been on a live aboard for a few years and need to sort out a music studio. I'd rather work from home but have found even running Pro Tools without an interface rinses my batteries in a couple of hours. My set-up is Macbook Pro, USB powered interface and small Genelec monitors, plus ext hard drives. I have 120watt solar. I'm an ex-CCer, now with mooring but no electric hook up.

 

So my question is how have you got on and can you advise? Like you I would be looking at full days / nights working.

 

Many thanks,

 

 

Louise

 

Hi People.

 

Was wondering if you could help me.

 

I make computer based music, and want to do so when afloat.

How feasible is a fullsize music PC, monitor, and a television for the missus, all simultaneously.

I know laptops are more efficient, but we use that for the net, banking, etc. I'd much prefer a

comfortable full size keyboard and monitor to work with.

 

Is it possible? And if so, how much would it cane the batteries?

Or do we have to take it in turns, on alternate evenings? Will anything

go pop, if we turn on more than one device at once? (please excuse my

ignorance).

 

When 'on a roll', i like to work through the night (on headphones, naturally)

and was i wondering if this will be possible on a narrowboat? What's the most

"life" i could expect from say.... an average battery bank of 4 leisures.

 

We intend to CC, and can top up during the day. But I was wondering

if i could draw on the experiences of the forum, before we set off.

 

Any advice appreciated.

thankyou.

 

ken

[Graham Davis]

Kendo doesn't seem to have been on the forum since 2012.

[kris88]

Even though it's a resurrected thread, I'd recommend more solar and more batteries as a solution to running times. Even then this time of year you would need back up battery charging. Either generator/ battery charger or from the boats engine.

Regards kris

Edited November 12, 2014 by kris88