Crick 2009

[Chris-B]

There are quality differences in all narrowboats, this is imo what make the handcrafted boatbuilders trade unique

YES some are bl00dy horrible, some are very nice, some TRY to emulate working boats of old, others make a damm good job of it

 

At the end of the day YOU as the prospective purchaser have to say does xyz's build tick all/enough of the boxes for me to purchase ? if yes then good

 

It''s not up to anybody as a forum member to sneer at another's purchase and or dream.. that's the choice of the individual

 

thank f&ck boats are different other wise the whole flotilla of clonecraft will be moored the length and breadth of the cut

 

Chris

[Guest]

The shell may be wonderful.

 

I urge you to take a look at some high quality shells built by real boat builders, apprenticed in the trade.

 

Now you are confusing me.

 

You've concede the shells are "wonderful" and in another conceded that you weren't aware that Amber/Aqualine were no longer fitted out with MDF either.

I'm taking it the "high quality" you refer to shells are not fitted out with MDF either,

 

so where's the advantage???

 

 

I think I'm starting to feel your objection to Polish built is based on an issue of principle rather than logic.

[dasboot]

There are quality differences in all narrowboats, this is imo what make the handcrafted boatbuilders trade unique

YES some are bl00dy horrible, some are very nice, some TRY to emulate working boats of old, others make a damm good job of it

 

At the end of the day YOU as the prospective purchaser have to say does xyz's build tick all/enough of the boxes for me to purchase ? if yes then good

 

It''s not up to anybody as a forum member to sneer at another's purchase and or dream.. that's the choice of the individual

 

thank f&ck boats are different other wise the whole flotilla of clonecraft will be moored the length and breadth of the cut

 

Chris

But they are, almost. Certainly were at Crick.

 

For a newbie, what ticks all the boxes is frequently very much guided by Waterways World and Canal Boat. Then after 2 years or less they realise they didn't need half of the stuff that was fitted. Many of us know that journalists who contribute to those mags have boated for many years, but they are not permitted or don't dare to say what they really think. Which mag said that Whitefield was a totally ridiculous overspecced wholly impractical ugly lump of a narrow boat? None of them. How many of their contributors thought that was the case? Probably all of them.

 

It's for forums like this to advise these days - we're not in the pockets of the builders or the manufacturers. All we have to get rid of in order to express full blooded opinions is overweening censorship.

[Chris-B]

But they are, almost. Certainly were at Crick.

 

For a newbie, what ticks all the boxes is frequently very much guided by Waterways World and Canal Boat. Then after 2 years or less they realise they didn't need half of the stuff that was fitted. Many of us know that journalists who contribute to those mags have boated for many years, but they are not permitted or don't dare to say what they really think. Which mag said that Whitefield was a totally ridiculous overspecced wholly impractical ugly lump of a narrow boat? None of them. How many of their contributors thought that was the case? Probably all of them.

 

It's for forums like this to advise these days - we're not in the pockets of the builders or the manufacturers. All we have to get rid of in order to express full blooded opinions is overweening censorship.

 

As with all thing dasbboot relating to the press , it is up to the reader to make his/her/it's own decision based upon the information transmitted

YES I do agree that the press is guided by the advertiser pound BUT there is a wealth of knowledge out there now a days for people to tap into

40 years ago there was the towpath.....now there is the internet

 

There are boats out there in the market place that I would not touch with a barge pole BUT unlike the 70's and 80's theyb are inherently a lot safer and far better constructed ( legend boats being one example)

 

My choice and indeed YOUR choice may or not be the same but there is a place in the market for all pockets, styles etc

 

I started out with a converted ships life boat, now we own a large Woolwich..my dream for years was a "working" star but you adapt and adjust.

 

Polish/Chinese/outer Mongolian etc does it matter ? NO as long as YOU the buyer are happy

 

Chris

[dasboot]

Now you are confusing me.

 

You've concede the shells are "wonderful" and in another conceded that you weren't aware that Amber/Aqualine were no longer fitted out with MDF either.

I'm taking it the "high quality" you refer to shells are not fitted out with MDF either,

 

so where's the advantage???

 

 

I think I'm starting to feel your objection to Polish built is based on an issue of principle rather than logic.

I haven't said anywhere that the Amber or Aqualine shells are either wonderful or otherwise. I'm sure the welding is fine. They will float.

 

I said I wasn't aware about the most recent models no longer using MDF, but I'll believe it if someone from those builders actually states that on here or elsewhere. I bet the bulkheads, a critical fitting, still are. Not that they are the only builders using MDF by any means.

 

If you want a good boat start with one of the shell builders I mention above. They'll be pretty particular about good boat fitters, believe me. If you think they're a little expensive, then buy one of their boats second hand - it be a lot better in any case than a lot of new stuff.

 

I was trying to help you, so I'm sorry if you don't like my input.

 

I like decent boats.

 

You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink.

[Chertsey]

I urge you to take a look at some high quality shells built by real boat builders, apprenticed in the trade. Go to Norton Canes, or RW Davis, or Brinklow Boats, or Roger Farrington, and others who I'm sure this forum can advise you of. Look at their steelwork out of the water, and then you'll see the difference. And if you ever get to steer one, you will know the difference between a floating bath tub and a real boat. That's not snobbery (Starman), it is a fact and a respect for genuine craftsman largely ignored by the waterway's press because they don't hand over thousands every month with glossy irrelevant ads about strawberries and chocolate, or whatever nonsense.

That is a very important point.

[Guest]

But they are, almost. Certainly were at Crick.

Then as has been pointed out to you in another post you clearly could not have been there this year.

 

 

It's for forums like this to advise these days - we're not in the pockets of the builders or the manufacturers.

Totally agree - but if i'd taken on your advice about not going Aqualine/Amber because they are stuffed with MDF I would have been mislead as you were wrong, advice in forums such as this not based on evidence or fact is as dangerous as advice and info. in waterway mags misleading people due to links with their high paying advertisers allegedly affecting editorial content.

Edited May 27, 2009 by MJG

[dasboot]

Polish/Chinese/outer Mongolian etc does it matter ? NO as long as YOU the buyer are happy

 

Chris

Of course all that matters is that the person(s) who own the boat are happy.

 

They won't be with many of those boats a few years down the line. Some of them are already falling apart at just 5 years old. Fact. And that is true for a number of British built cheapo boats in the last decade too, as kitchen fitters, shop fitters, and people with a credit account at B&Q with all the experience of spending a couple of Sundays erecting flat pack furniture cashed in on the waterways boom.

 

Ask the builder, for example, is the woodwork varnished on both sides to minimise rot? (I bet it isn't on most). Will they guarantee the effectiveness of spray foam insulation for 10 years? (They should do, if it has been properly applied). Will they guarantee the paintwork for 5 years (apart from scratches you cause - they should do if it is done properly)?

 

Yes, please buy a boat you will be happy with. There were a good number at the Crick show that people will not be happy with, unless they remain for most of the time in a marina hooked up to mains electric, or simply cease to use a lot of the "extras" the boat came with.

 

Then as has been pointed out to you in another post you clearly could not have been there this year.

I was.

Totally agree - but if i'd taken on your advice about not going Aqualine/Amber because they are stuffed with MDF I would have been mislead as you were wrong, advice in forums such as this not based on evidence or fact is as dangerous as advice and info. in waterway mags misleading people due to links with their high paying advertisers allegedly affecting editorial content.

I reiterate - "I said I wasn't aware about the most recent models no longer using MDF, but I'll believe it if someone from those builders actually states that on here or elsewhere. I bet the bulkheads, a critical fitting, still are. Not that they are the only builders using MDF by any means."

[Guest]

Ask the builder, for example, is the woodwork varnished on both sides to minimise rot? (I bet it isn't on most). Will they guarantee the effectiveness of spray foam insulation for 10 years? (They should do, if it has been properly applied). Will they guarantee the paintwork for 5 years (apart from scratches you cause - they should do if it is done properly)?

 

Can you link me to the parts of the websites of the builders you mentioned earlier that refer to the guarantees you refer to - it could be me and it is a little late now but I couldn't seem to find it.

[dasboot]

Can you link me to the parts of the websites of the builders you mentioned earlier that refer to the guarantees you refer to - it could be me and it is a little late now but I couldn't seem to find it.

I suggested you fire questions like that at the builder. I do know of painters who would put right faults if they occurred. I do know of fitters who treat the wood on the unseen inside. I don't know of one guaranteeing the spray foam will last 10 years, but I'm sure one would. If it is done well it will probably last for 30 years, or maybe a lifetime.

 

You started a parallel topic by asking for advice. That's all I've tried to offer. It seems that you object to being given advice that doesn't concur with what you want to hear, to the extent that I wonder if you actually started a topic not as a prospective boat buyer but as someone seeking to promote a particular product.

 

If you are a genuine buyer then good luck with it.

[starman]

It seems that you object to being given advice that doesn't concur with what you want to hear,

 

With respect, you seem to be of the same mind. You said earlier that all the boats at Crick were much the same - I pointed out the huge variety from electric power to traditional tug. You said on another thread that Polish boats were full of MDF - I pointed out that Aqualine didn't use it yet you can't let that one go. Read Graham Booth's report in Waterways World on his visit to the factory a few months after they opened for confirmation that they never have.

Of course the builders you mention are renowned craftsmen and deserving of the highest respect - whoever said they didn't? Equally I would defy you to step on board the Fernwood at this year's show (say) and not admit to its superlative fit-out quality. Not to your taste, perhaps, but undeniably superb. Same goes for several others.

True, the waterways press are circumspect in their comments. Unlike on a forum where sweeping generalisations and personal opinions can be aired alongside practical advice, a test is putting into print comments which, if wrong or unfair, can wreck a small business that only builds 2 or 3 boats a year. Read the tests, though, and you'll see frequent references to some of the points you raise about quality of materials, joinery standards, the steelwork and so on.

I've spoken to many people who've bought bespoke new boats and generally they've thought long and hard about it. Surprising as it may seem to you, most of them do want fully fitted kitchens with magic corners, washing machines and all the stuff which I personally am quite happy to leave at home. Reading boat tests and visiting shows gives them ideas and sound advice on the electrical set-ups and so on that they'll need to keep their kit working.

To tell them they should have an RW Davis or Brinklow Boats craft is a bit like saying they should go for a hand-built Aston Martin when they want a people-carrier. It might handle like a bath-tub (and I'm not sure that Jonathan Wilson and others would be happy to hear you say that about their shells) but it does what they want and it's what they can afford.

[GeoffS]

Reminds me of a classic quote I came across a while back. I can't remember the full spiel but the gist was that there are four types of knowledge

 

1. the known known's (i.e. what you know that you know)

2. the known unknown's (what you know you don't know)

3. the unknown known's (what you don't know that you know)

4. the unknown unknown's (the things that you don't know that you know)

 

Generally it's category 4 that causes the problems

 

But in any event, how much does the 'average' buyer need to know? why should they be any more interested in the hydrodynamic design of their boat hull than they are in the details of the aerodynamic design of their car. Most people who buy houses aren't building experts, most people who buy cars are car experts, most computer purchasers aren't computer experts - why should boat buyers need to be boat experts?

 

Peter

 

It was Donald Rumsfeld!

 

Rumsfeld!

[Chertsey]

To tell them they should have an RW Davis or Brinklow Boats craft is a bit like saying they should go for a hand-built Aston Martin when they want a people-carrier. It might handle like a bath-tub (and I'm not sure that Jonathan Wilson and others would be happy to hear you say that about their shells) but it does what they want and it's what they can afford.

Fair enough, but knowing that there is a difference doesn't make you a snob. And at least people who buy people carriers don't think that they've got Aston Martins.

Edited May 28, 2009 by WarriorWoman

[BlueStringPudding]

We had a marveeeeelous time at Crick. Had a nosey round lots of boats (loved the inside of the Piper/Wilson boat) and drank many a beer, enjoyed some steel band music and the weather held out for us. Didn't see any of you guys there, but as we ended the extended weekend with a 2-day banter with Keeping Up and Pingu, it's been great!

[starman]

Fair enough, but knowing that there is a difference doesn't make you a snob. And at least people who buy people carriers don't think that they've got Aston Martins.

 

I'm not so sure judging by the way some of them drive them on the roads round here!

[PaddingtonBear]

That is totally true, Starman, a bunch of loons. The point that I was trying to make was what might be called a 'cultural' one, without getting all post modernist/structuralist about it all. For hundreds of years houses have evolved and been replaced by others that either reflect the improved technology or a change of use. Similarly canal boats have evolved especially nowadays as people have confused wants with needs. Shiney josher semi-trads are as like proper boats as 'suburban tudor' is like a proper half - timbered tudor yeomans house. ie. nothing like - at least most people recognise the difference with houses. If people genuinely 'need' five flat screen televisions in a boat so be it and good luck to them ( although they must need their bumps felt) but please this is not anything to do with boats or boating and more to do with a clever salesman or showing off and certainly not to do with our boating heritage. In some ways the mad design led offerings of recent years are more honest, at least they don't attempt to be something that they are not. It is becoming increasingly true in boating as in life that almost all people know the cost of everything but the value (or quality) of nothing.

[Richard Fairhurst]

waterway mags misleading people due to links with their high paying advertisers allegedly affecting editorial content.

Utter bullshit.

[Nightwatch]

Don't beat about the bush Richard.

[BlueStringPudding]

Not sure why but I detect there may be some prejudice against a post in here such as this but here goes....

 

Who is going and looking forward to Crick 2009 ???

 

Having never been before Jan and I are really looking forward to getting aboard some potential live 'aboard's' to compare against buying in France,

 

The weather looks great for Saturday and Sunday, less so Monday,

 

Crick Holiday Inn Booked, just 280 miles to travel there and back.

 

Feel free to urinate on our bonfire - we'll consider all opinions (and ditch the ones we don't like :lol: )

 

In reply to this post, we stayed at the Holiday Inn on the Monday night too (a reasonable staggering distance from Edward's restaurant and the Red Lion pub too!).

 

Not much in the way of photos as it was mid-way through a five-day bender and most of the photos taken were of the party we went to on Saturday at Kings Cross (for Facebook friends' eyes only them! ). But here is our summary of Crick 09:

 

 

Kev and beer tent

 

 

 

Lisa and beer.

 

 

 

Bonkers music troupe who played a head on a stick like it was a maracca.

 

 

The end.

 

 

 

Oh yes, I believe there were some boats there too.

Edited May 28, 2009 by BlueStringPudding

[Guest]

Utter bullshit.

 

Richard think you need to calrify - Do you think I'm suggesting the magazines do this (which I actually wasn't) If you hadn't so heavily edited and snipped my quote it would have been obvious the context that the wording was originally used in ie a comparison between advice on an internet forum versus advice in a magazine, I wasn't suggesting magazines do this,

 

Or

 

are you suggesting they do?? - as I say some clarification would be useful, - cheers.

[Richard Fairhurst]

Sorry, not getting at you in particular, but rather responding to the opinion (which I guess in your posting was kind of in quotes). I'd agree with your point 1 in post #67.

[Guest]

Sorry, not getting at you in particular, but rather responding to the opinion (which I guess in your posting was kind of in quotes). I'd agree with your point 1 in post #67.

 

Noted thanks Richard.

[dasboot]

Sorry, not getting at you in particular, but rather responding to the opinion (which I guess in your posting was kind of in quotes). I'd agree with your point 1 in post #67.

Richard:

 

If WW were to "road test" say, 5 new boats, and Which? magazine were to do exactly the same, do you genuinely believe the WW write up would be as objective as Which?'

[dasboot]

With respect, you seem to be of the same mind. You said earlier that all the boats at Crick were much the same - I pointed out the huge variety from electric power to traditional tug. You said on another thread that Polish boats were full of MDF - I pointed out that Aqualine didn't use it yet you can't let that one go. Read Graham Booth's report in Waterways World on his visit to the factory a few months after they opened for confirmation that they never have.

Of course the builders you mention are renowned craftsmen and deserving of the highest respect - whoever said they didn't? Equally I would defy you to step on board the Fernwood at this year's show (say) and not admit to its superlative fit-out quality. Not to your taste, perhaps, but undeniably superb. Same goes for several others.

True, the waterways press are circumspect in their comments. Unlike on a forum where sweeping generalisations and personal opinions can be aired alongside practical advice, a test is putting into print comments which, if wrong or unfair, can wreck a small business that only builds 2 or 3 boats a year. Read the tests, though, and you'll see frequent references to some of the points you raise about quality of materials, joinery standards, the steelwork and so on.

I've spoken to many people who've bought bespoke new boats and generally they've thought long and hard about it. Surprising as it may seem to you, most of them do want fully fitted kitchens with magic corners, washing machines and all the stuff which I personally am quite happy to leave at home. Reading boat tests and visiting shows gives them ideas and sound advice on the electrical set-ups and so on that they'll need to keep their kit working.

To tell them they should have an RW Davis or Brinklow Boats craft is a bit like saying they should go for a hand-built Aston Martin when they want a people-carrier. It might handle like a bath-tub (and I'm not sure that Jonathan Wilson and others would be happy to hear you say that about their shells) but it does what they want and it's what they can afford.

I'm not of the same mind. I never asked for any advice, so that is a fatuous comparison.

 

The difference in price between an RW Davis boat etc is not huge compared to much of the stuff on show at Crick. Nothing like the difference between, say, a Vauxhall Astra and an Aston Martin. That is a misleading comparison.

 

Surprising as it may seem to you, most of them do want fully fitted kitchens with magic corners, washing machines and all the stuff which I personally am quite happy to leave at home.

 

Because no magazine explains to them that a boat is not a house, and many spend/waste a lot of money finding that out. And builders, most of them, will fit all this stuff because it is relatively cheap to do, and they make a healthy mark up out of it. They don't give a toss whether it is practical or not.

 

As for boats at Crick not being the same: most of them were floating bungalows; many of them not very practical for long term cruising.

[blackrose]

I'm sorry but that is a statement of pure boating snobbery. When I was a lad and used to snigger at other people's down at heel cars my dad would say to me "every car is someone's pride and joy". Maybe you should try the same approach. Not everyone can afford, or even wants, an Ian Kemp shell. They have a boat to enjoy the waterways and suit their own needs and pocket. You may not like many of them - and I can't say most are my cup of tea either - but they don't deserve to be sneered at.

Agreed - there's far too much snobery on the waterways.I'm not sure that those who look down their noses at mass-produced canal boats are really any different from those in big expensive river cruisers who look down on all canal boats.

Let's face it, If we all owned 'craftsman' built boats they would necessarily end up becoming mass-produced, so be grateful for what you've got and let's not be judgemental about what others have.

Edited May 28, 2009 by blackrose