Crick 2009

[dor]

Just to throw a spanner in the Audi, my Audi A6 Avant I had was the most unreliable car I've had in the last 20 years. 3 very expensive blowups in the first three years (thank god for 3 year warranties).

 

Maybe the same applies to some "Audi" boats.

[Steamerpoint]

The truth is that we would like to think we are all different, but the vast majority are suckered into the same aspirations: they shop at one of the major supermarkets, go to Ikea in large numbers, hanker after the latest "must have" kitchen, have to have an iPod, etc. It's actually a great uniformity. The "difference" is confined to what colour they chose. I sat in the sunshine outside a pub earlier and couple on the next table were studying a catalogue with their 3 children choosing new bedroom furniture for them all. Was this about individuality? No. It was educating, although they would deny it, their children to jump on the bandwagon of consumerism and be like everyone else in Western society.

 

One thing I like about long term boaters is they seem to divorce themselves from much of that - it makes people realise that there is life outside of the main stream aspirations. But newcomers are frequently duped into believing that a house can be shovelled into a boat. Granite worktops that can crack when you crane or dock the boat through flexing, unnecessary freezers that hammer the batteries, bowthrusters that cost a lot, are frequently insufficiently powerful to be any use when you might actually need one, and largely unnecessary, a host of pointless electrical gadgets. People looking to escape the rat race on the waterways being conned into having this stuff which makes their lives a misery rather than being useful much of the time.

 

One type of objective review of a boat might just say, "You don't need all this shit." But you don't see that in the magazines, however eloquently Richard Fairhurst might defend his position.

Unfortunately consumerism is necessary! The whole fabric of our economy, possibly the world economy, requires it otherwise the wheels come off and millions of people lose their jobs in the way we have been seeing.

 

Just to throw a spanner in the Audi, my Audi A6 Avant I had was the most unreliable car I've had in the last 20 years. 3 very expensive blowups in the first three years (thank god for 3 year warranties).

 

Maybe the same applies to some "Audi" boats.

Oh thanks alot Dor, you promised that you wouldn't bring that up! Completely spoil my point, why don't you. Lol.

Edited May 29, 2009 by Steamerpoint

[journeyperson]

Should this be moved to the Auto Analogy Forum? Anal-ogy, as in talking out of one's ar*e.

[dasboot]

Unfortunately consumerism is necessary! The whole fabric of our economy, possibly the world economy, requires it otherwise the wheels come off and millions of people lose their jobs in the way we have been seeing.

No it isn't. What is necessary is that there is growth through production that satisfies real need. That should be through the production of food, housing, well being. Not throwaway junk. The creation of jobs that supply tthe real requirements of life.

 

This may be seem a long way off topic from discussing boat builders and the Crick Show. But many people want to move on to boats as a long term way of life. People of all ages. Boats are a fantastic educator, unless you live in a marina with a constant 230V supply plugged in, of the need to manage resources. Your power is finite, it doesn't just happen to be there courtesy of nPower or whatever utility company.

 

Most of the boats on show at Crick promise that dream, but most are not practical propositions if you want to live a life afloat. You will struggle to keep your resources replenished with much of the kit that is installed. Kit that is not needed.

 

The magazines are useless in making this clear. There are some unarguable facts: if you want to go boating, you will enjoy it far more if you keep it simple. Enjoy the fact that you don't need a stupidly large bank of batteries to support your ampere drug habit, which then takes hours to replenish. Appreciate that reading a book is usually a vast improvement on anything a telly csn offer (although I like TV for occasional stuff).

 

Perhaps he fact that I am able to relay these thoughts through a mobile connection using a laptop computer makes a mockery of this statement, but my boat sustains that power demand, and I seldom run my engine for charging purposes alo...........................

[Chris J W]

With respect ... cobblers!

 

People get the boat they want that suits the lifestyle they want. Be-it an original working boat converted for minimal 'modern living' or a brand-new bespoke hull with all the mod-cons. Who cares? If the owner is happy and content with the lifestyle they've chosen then who is anyone to tell them they are wrong?

[Mimi]

Well we spent Sunday and Monday at Crick.. Great atmosphere and had a brilliant few days. Some nice boats but the star of the show for me was on Daddy's boat. The couple who own the company's little lad!(sorry but cant remember his name)....what a little honey . He gave us the full guided tour and was a joy to listen to for such a young man. I would have bought him if I could have, never mind the boat. At last Chris J W some sensible comments........each to their own, I agree totally.

[PaddingtonBear]

I totally agree, each to their own (what ever that means), just so long as the buyers know all the relevant facts which is never the case in a market economy and that they know what they are buying. Most in life are lazy/stupid and are 'dedicated followers of fashion' and are easy meat for the silver-tounged rogues/salesman that are prepared to sell the gullable anything that makes a buck however unsuitable.(See the current charger thread) I know I go on about it but can someone please tell me why you would want 5 flat screen tvs on a narrowboat including one in the shower, apart for the fact of 'each to their own'.

Edited May 30, 2009 by PaddingtonBear

[Guest User]

.... but can someone please tell me why you would want 5 flat screen tvs on a narrowboat including one in the shower, apart for the fact of 'each to their own'.

 

I can't .... but perhaps, to save having so many screens, someone could invent a hat with a bracket that dangles a wi-fi screen 6 inches in front of the wearer's eyes ?

[MoominPapa]

No it isn't. What is necessary is that there is growth through production that satisfies real need. That should be through the production of food, housing, well being. Not throwaway junk. The creation of jobs that supply tthe real requirements of life.

But defining "real need" is a bit more difficult than you imply. It's hard to get people to work hard and produce stuff/services if they don't get something immediate out of it. I could increase the amount of resources going towards "real need" and reduce the amount going into "throwaway junk" quite easily: just double taxes and spend the resulting money on the health and social services. How many votes am I going to get for that? Maybe I'll add another big chunk of tax as use it for third-world aid (there's _real_ need).

 

Like it or not (and I don't, particularly), production of tat has a vital role in economic growth, from which flows the satisfaction of "real needs".

 

MP

[Chertsey]

Leaving aside the possibility (I will put it no stronger than that for the sake of argument) that continued economic growth is environmentally unsustainable...

 

And it is fine to say each to their own, I couldn't agree more, but the only REAL choice is an INFORMED choice. In what other field would you say that, where a person has been sold an inferior product that is not suited to their needs, as long as they are happy it is fine?

[rjasmith]

.....and now for something completely different!!

 

We really enjoyed Crick this year - not least for the fantastic weather and a stay in a splendid little b & b up near Foxton(last year in our tent at Malc Pratts during the storm!) .

 

Didn't really look at boats (been there, done that in previous years).

 

Thanks to Nb Alnwick though we did a lot of "prop guru" networking and came away with a clearer idea of suitable parameters that should work with the Kelvin in our Colecraft hull. So thanks to John G and Baldock for pointing us in lots of different directions!

 

Richard

[starman]

In what other field would you say that, where a person has been sold an inferior product that is not suited to their needs, as long as they are happy it is fine?

 

Cars, houses, cameras, fashion, art... the list is endless. I've known some very intelligent people buy all of these things just on a whim without the tiniest bit of research. I think there's is a dangerous judgment going on here that only 'the masses' do this sort of thing and they need to be told the error of their ways.

You may think there are some appalling wastes of money and resources out there - and possibly there are - but it all keeps people employed and, in the end, the alternative of limiting choice, imposing values and restricting this freedom is surely even worse. Haven't we seen where that goes?

[Chertsey]

Cars, houses, cameras, fashion, art... the list is endless. I've known some very intelligent people buy all of these things just on a whim without the tiniest bit of research. I think there's is a dangerous judgment going on here that only 'the masses' do this sort of thing and they need to be told the error of their ways.

You may think there are some appalling wastes of money and resources out there - and possibly there are - but it all keeps people employed and, in the end, the alternative of limiting choice, imposing values and restricting this freedom is surely even worse. Haven't we seen where that goes?

 

Certainly no suggestion on my part of 'intelligent people' versus 'the masses'. Doesn't matter how intelligent you are if you can't get relevant, unbiased information. I guess your first sentence makes that point. Also (apart from the environmental impact) it doesn't matter how many frivolous decisions you make if you've got money to burn. But many people buying a boat do not; they are investing everything they have in it.

 

I don't believe anybody has suggested imposing anything, restricting freedom or limiting choice - to suggest that these are the alternative to uninformed decision-making is a straw man. The alternative is to provide more information. All that has been suggested is that more information, and unbiased information, would be helpful to people who are choosing how to spend large amounts of money.

[PaddingtonBear]

I am (last para.) just like I do in real life

[Steamerpoint]

Certainly no suggestion on my part of 'intelligent people' versus 'the masses'. Doesn't matter how intelligent you are if you can't get relevant, unbiased information. I guess your first sentence makes that point. Also (apart from the environmental impact) it doesn't matter how many frivolous decisions you make if you've got money to burn. But many people buying a boat do not; they are investing everything they have in it.

 

I don't believe anybody has suggested imposing anything, restricting freedom or limiting choice - to suggest that these are the alternative to uninformed decision-making is a straw man. The alternative is to provide more information. All that has been suggested is that more information, and unbiased information, would be helpful to people who are choosing how to spend large amounts of money.

This debate has got me thinking. Just how ecologically sustainable is living/ cruising on a narrowboat?

I seem to remember that they require about 10 litres or more diesel to cruise for one day. Steve (A Friend) had an uninsulated boat that needed the fire on all day to keep it comfortable, but the energy and co2 emissions required to build the boat in the first place must be very large.

That said, it must be 10 times worse to build a house and a narrowboat should last 30, 40, 50 years or more offering just enough space compared to a house which is often much bigger than you actually need.

 

I can understand the argument that says human kind cannot continue stripping the worlds resources at the current rate and it needs to find a way to move to the next evolutionary stage where resources are no longer pulled from the ground.

Renewable energy will be the only solution when the oil, gas, coal etc. runs out, but how will we move our beloved narrowboats when this happens? I've got a sailing mast on my sailing boat I could fit, but the bridges could be a problem!

Edited May 30, 2009 by Steamerpoint

[Chertsey]

This debate has got me thinking. Just how ecologically sustainable is living/ cruising on a narrowboat?

I seem to remember that they require about 10 litres or more diesel to cruise for one day. Steve (A Friend) had an uninsulated boat that needed the fire on all day to keep it comfortable, but the energy and co2 emissions required to build the boat in the first place must be very large.

That said, it must be 10 times worse to build a house and a narrowboat should last 30, 40, 50 years or more offering just enough space compared to a house which is often much bigger than you actually need.

 

I can understand the argument that says human kind cannot continue stripping the worlds resources at the current rate and it needs to find a way to move to the next evolutionary stage where resources are no longer pulled from the ground.

Renewable energy will be the only solution when the oil, gas, coal etc. runs out, but how will we move our beloved narrowboats when this happens? I've got a sailing mast on my sailing boat I could fit, but the bridges could be a problem!

Horse?

 

I agree, from a fossil fuel point of view boating is not v green. However, if you are using your engine to travel, generate electricity, heat your boat and your water, that may be more efficient than converting the fossil fuel into electricity first and then using that. (no doubt someone will be along shortly with some figures) After all, RN are marketing their engines for domestic combined heat and power units on a green ticket (though I don't know how genuine that is). Also, boat living certainly makes you aware of the resources you are using, which can't be a bad thing. And you are only heating/lighting a small space. And if you burn wood rather than coal that is carbon neutral...

[Steamerpoint]

Horse?

 

I agree, from a fossil fuel point of view boating is not v green. However, if you are using your engine to travel, generate electricity, heat your boat and your water, that may be more efficient than converting the fossil fuel into electricity first and then using that. (no doubt someone will be along shortly with some figures) After all, RN are marketing their engines for domestic combined heat and power units on a green ticket (though I don't know how genuine that is). Also, boat living certainly makes you aware of the resources you are using, which can't be a bad thing. And you are only heating/lighting a small space. And if you burn wood rather than coal that is carbon neutral...

If your around Bill Fen tomorrow Sarah, we can explore this subject in greater detail. I'm popping over to see Jim just after lunch, and I think your moored close by from memory.

[Guest]

Best bit for me from Crick was confirming Jan and I (oh and Dennis the JRT) are now convinced we need to buy a boat, and let go of a number of things from our current lifestyle, work semi retired is an option for both of us,

 

I guess we'll choose the boat that suites this decision best... thanks for all ( well not all ) the input

[Steamerpoint]

Paddingtonbear, I just wanted to say thanks for the great afternoon today. It was nice to meet up and we had a lovely trip out on the boat. Your a gentleman & a squire.

Hope the trip up to Braunston goes well and we'll see you up there.

Cheers Chris.

 

PS. Don't forget to message me your mobile number so we can hook up for that drink & a bite to eat I owe you.

Edited May 31, 2009 by Steamerpoint

[chieftiff]

Cars, houses, cameras, fashion, art... the list is endless. I've known some very intelligent people buy all of these things just on a whim without the tiniest bit of research. I think there's is a dangerous judgment going on here that only 'the masses' do this sort of thing and they need to be told the error of their ways.

You may think there are some appalling wastes of money and resources out there - and possibly there are - but it all keeps people employed and, in the end, the alternative of limiting choice, imposing values and restricting this freedom is surely even worse. Haven't we seen where that goes?

 

I caught this thread late and Starman I suspect you are the other member on here who has studied economics, there's a lot of sanctimonious crap on the thread and you seem to have unpicked it. Want v Need, it's what makes the world go around....literally, our advanced economy wouldn't exist without it and we would all still be protecting hill forts to protect our local resources but for the desire to improve our lot. Of course education plays a part in the want aspect: peer pressure, advertising, brainwashing call it what you will but once our needs are addressed the road to self actualisation means we develop wants, we use our excess needs (resources we gathered believing them necessary but finding them excess to requirement) to gather our wants...... it's life. Personally after 25 years in the Royal Navy I'm partial to a good weld (and I mean a really good weld, it's important when you are used to rolling around mid Atlantic)) good design, practicality and value for money, I actually couldn't give a toss whose name is on the invoice whatever their reputation, Mrs Chieftiff likes the pretty things that make life comfortable even though she has spent as much time as I have living at sea, our boat will be a balance of the two I suspect. That will be the boat I want, possibly need if we can rent the house out for a few years

 

I was at Crick and it was a great show this year, plenty of choice with respect to boatbuilders (choice, another important aspect to modern life) styles and budgets, personally I particularly liked the Daddy's Boat "tug" and will be adding them to my list of boatbuilders to visit when the time comes.

Edited June 1, 2009 by chieftiff

[Chertsey]

I caught this thread late and Starman I suspect you are the other member on here who has studied economics,

Not the only other one.

[dasboot]

I caught this thread late and Starman I suspect you are the other member on here who has studied economics.

Certainly not the only other one. I have a PPE first class degree from a well known university. I think starman is probably the person on this thread who has first class honours in self interest. Warrior Woman and her points about people being provided with the wherewithal to make informed choices was the most lucid input into this. The people can't get that information from the comics, as she pointed out.

[chieftiff]

Certainly not the only other one. I have a PPE first class degree from a well known university. I think starman is probably the person on this thread who has first class honours in self interest. Warrior Woman and her points about people being provided with the wherewithal to make informed choices was the most lucid input into this. The people can't get that information from the comics, as she pointed out.

 

Wow, 3 subjects in one degree? you trump me, mine is just plain old Mathematics (Pure and Applied does that count as two?). Warrior Woman's point is well made and informed choice is important, but so is desire. Opinions are like arseholes, everyone has one and the opinion of the comics (I guess you are talking about the magazines which exist by attempting to focus people's desire on certain "brands") is as valid as the opinion of anyone else, we each have preferences and we each have our bias and prejudice; it's human nature to assume what we know or do is correct, we try to influence others to our way of thinking why else would we be discussing this now? We also have a tendency to be wrong and we learn by our mistakes, informed opinion is about gathering all these strands and making a decision (right or wrong) but making our own decision, Attendance at Crick, inspecting the boats, talking to the boatbuilders, owners etc is as valid a way of making an informed decisions as listening to someone who recommends some obscure shed in the middle of Derbyshire or Lincolnshire (been there, he makes very nice boats) as a good place to have a boat built.

[Chertsey]

I would argue that not all opinions are equally valid and your analogy is not a very good one. Opinions based on careful research and consideration of the evidence are more valid than opinions based on either misleading information or blind prejudice.

Edited June 1, 2009 by WarriorWoman

[chieftiff]

I would argue that not all opinions are equally valid and your analogy is not a very good one. Opinions based on careful research and consideration of the evidence are more valid than opinions based on either misleading information or blind prejudice.

 

I'm guessing you're a politician?

 

Your opinion of my opinion is interesting, but I've just dismissed it because I have no idea what it is based on and therefore how valid it is....... do you get the idea? When I talk to a boatbuilder I know he is biased, when I talk to an owner I now they are biased, when I read an article in a magazine I assume they have at least some bias. I take all that in and process it, when I talk to someone who appears to have no bias I have no idea what their particular prejudice is... just how do I process that or do I take it on faith?

 

PS. Not meaning to be rude, just make a point. You are perfectly welcome to dismiss my opinion of your opinion.

 

Edited to make sense!

Edited June 1, 2009 by chieftiff