Boat Electrician & Batteries....

[Dominic M]

Would you have won more if I'd reacted too?

 

The reason I didn't is that there's actually a lot of sense in what you say.

 

An even simpler system is the alternator connected directly to one battery and then a manual paralleling switch. Switched at the correct times this will do an infinitely better job of split charging than a diode based system and a much better job than a relay energised all the time the alternator is running. The difficulty is learning when (and remembering) to switch it.

 

If the alternator already charges at a sensible voltage then adding an external controller will do nowt anyway.

 

You still have no way of monitoring the state of charge.

 

Gibbo

To be honest I was fooling around, but in my original post I did mean what I said to an extent. I am not someone with the in depth knowledge or grasp of things electrical that you and Chrisw have. But I have boated for 30 years, and in the 1990s spent seven years continuously on two boats without ever being hooked up to a land line, so battery power was everything. I had come to understand that with a manual switch things like Adverc or other alternator controllers were something that were not a crucial addition. And also understood that to live "off the grid" meant choosing to adapt to a finite power resource. But we still had television - watched when genuinely wanted - and lighting, so it was not a Spartan existence.

 

I may be at a loss to explain things like Peukert's law, but I do know at first hand what worked. Because we did it, and it did work. With three 110AH wet batteries that we replaced once.

 

I used to switch the 1,2,Off,Both switch from 1 to Both after starting, and then around 30 mins or so later, to 2 - the domestics only. It became second nature to do so.

 

From experience, if I started a new boat now, I would revert to that simple switching system.

 

Have I got it right, or am I missing something?

[Ian F B]

To be honest I was fooling around, but in my original post I did mean what I said to an extent. I am not someone with the in depth knowledge or grasp of things electrical that you and Chrisw have. But I have boated for 30 years, and in the 1990s spent seven years continuously on two boats without ever being hooked up to a land line, so battery power was everything. I had come to understand that with a manual switch things like Adverc or other alternator controllers were something that were not a crucial addition. And also understood that to live "off the grid" meant choosing to adapt to a finite power resource. But we still had television - watched when genuinely wanted - and lighting, so it was not a Spartan existence.

 

I may be at a loss to explain things like Peukert's law, but I do know at first hand what worked. Because we did it, and it did work. With three 110AH wet batteries that we replaced once.

 

I used to switch the 1,2,Off,Both switch from 1 to Both after starting, and then around 30 mins or so later, to 2 - the domestics only. It became second nature to do so.

 

From experience, if I started a new boat now, I would revert to that simple switching system.

 

Have I got it right, or am I missing something?

[Guest]

Indeed. But as I said, you have to know and remember when to switch it on and off.

 

The ideal is to have the alternator wired directly to the domestic bank. Then have the switch paralleling in the engine start battery. This applies in both cases. The advanatage of doing it this way is that the bulk of the charge current (which is going to the domestic bank) isn't going through the switch. Only the charge current for the engine start battery (much less) goes through the switch.

 

With an alternator energised switch, if you put a huge load on the domestic bank, the relay remains closed, and you discharge the engine start battery. It would be possible to do this enough for the battery to be left with insufficient to start the enigne. If you know (and remember) to switch it off when this happens it cannot happen.

 

Gibbo

Thanks Gibbo, interesting thought. My inverter is often on when we move and hammers the bank. This of course means it is hammering the start battery sometimes, as you point out. I could fit a switch into the coil circuit of my relay so I could physically disconnect the two banks when required, instead of changing to a big switch?

Would a remotely switched relay generally be better than an alternator energised one? (given that the operator remembers to use it)

Can the alternator charge the domestic bank, whilst getting a field from the starter bank?

 

Thanks

Edited March 8, 2009 by Guest

[Gibbo]

To be honest I was fooling around, but in my original post I did mean what I said to an extent. I am not someone with the in depth knowledge or grasp of things electrical that you and Chrisw have. But I have boated for 30 years, and in the 1990s spent seven years continuously on two boats without ever being hooked up to a land line, so battery power was everything. I had come to understand that with a manual switch things like Adverc or other alternator controllers were something that were not a crucial addition. And also understood that to live "off the grid" meant choosing to adapt to a finite power resource. But we still had television - watched when genuinely wanted - and lighting, so it was not a Spartan existence.

 

I may be at a loss to explain things like Peukert's law, but I do know at first hand what worked. Because we did it, and it did work. With three 110AH wet batteries that we replaced once.

 

I used to switch the 1,2,Off,Both switch from 1 to Both after starting, and then around 30 mins or so later, to 2 - the domestics only. It became second nature to do so.

 

From experience, if I started a new boat now, I would revert to that simple switching system.

 

Have I got it right, or am I missing something?

 

You're not missing anything. It works perfectly. The only downside is that it relies on human memory. And for many (probably most) people that is a big problem.

 

You can forget to charge the domestic bank so after a day cruising they are still flat.

 

You can forget to switch from the engine start battery so after a night moored up you can't start the boat.

 

And so on.

 

But if you always remember to do everything when you should there is nothing wrong with the system at all.

 

Gibbo

 

Interesting thought. My inverter is often on when we move and hammers the bank. This of course means it is hammering the start battery sometimes, as you point out. I could fit a switch into the coil circuit of my relay so I could physically disconnect the two banks when required, instead of changing to a big switch?

Would a remotely switched relay generally be better than an alternator energised one? (given that the operator remembers to use it)

 

Well a completely manual one might get left on when you shut the engine down. Following morning you can't start the engine.

 

If you keep it energised from the alternator but also add in the switch as you suggest so you can switch it off then I think that's a better solution. You can't leave it energised then but can still switch it off when heavy loads are on.

 

Be aware that looking at logs of this sort of useage on automatic systems shows the relay opening and closing sometimes hundreds of times per day. Reckon you can do as well? And still never make a mistake?

 

Gibbo

 

Edit: Broken fingers

Edited March 8, 2009 by Gibbo

[Guest]

You're not missing anything. It works perfectly. The only downside is that it relies on human memory. And for many (probably most) people that is a big problem.

 

You can forget to charge the domestic bank so after a day cruising they are still flat.

 

You can forget to switch from the engine start battery so after a night moored up you can't start the boat.

 

And so on.

 

But if you always remember to do everything when you should there is nothing wrong with the system at all.

 

Gibbo

 

 

 

Well a completely manual one might get left on when you shut the engine down. Following morning you can't start the engine.

 

If you keep it energised from the alternator but also add in the switch as you suggest so you can switch it off then I think that's a better solution. You can't leave it energised then but can still switch it off when heavy loads are on.

 

Be aware that looking at logs of this sort of useage on automatic systems shows the relay opening and closing sometimes hundreds of times per day. Reckon you can do as well? And still never make a mistake?

 

Gibbo

 

Edit: Broken fingers

Cheers, point taken. Must admit my car is an auto transmission and it changes gear a lot more often than I ever would. Now if SWMBO is driving........

[Ian F B]

I have the same system on my boat with a three position switch,but I have taken my main feed into the boat direct from the leisure batteryand put a double pole switch inside the cabin so I can totally disconnect the system

I have spent a great deal of my life as a service engineer,and have built cars .restored cars and motor cycles etc,so I am a bit of a dinosaur but I must agree,there is no such thing as a "magic" battery,care and maintenance will probably work just as well as an expensive gizmo ,but the choice as always is yours.

Cheers,

Ian F B .

[Bones]

and..... can one use leisure batteries at starter batteries and visa versa... well, obviously one 'can' but is it suitable?

[Tony Brooks]

and..... can one use leisure batteries at starter batteries and visa versa... well, obviously one 'can' but is it suitable?

 

 

I just wish everyone, including the manufacturers, would stop using the term leisure batteries - it's meaningless. Gibbo has stated and virtually challenged the battery manufacturers to sue him, that "Dual purpose" batteries, also known in some circles as "leisure batteries" are constructed in a similar manner to starting batteries.

 

Deep cycle batteries are constructed differently and although true deep cycle batteries should not be used for starting (the plates "dancing" under heavy discharges may make them shed material) once you get a bank of three or four the starting load on each may well be less than an inverter so the occasional use for starting should not compromise them to a significant extent. If they are just starting batteries with a fancy label then you can use them for both.

 

The bottom line is that (in my experience) most batter ties are destroyed by sulphation long before they "wear out" so unless you are on top of the charging regime I suspect you can treat them as the same thing. If you can get the charging correct them proper deep cycle batteries should last longer in purely domestic duties.

 

Sorry if this is garbled - under the influence of a bottle of red

Edited March 8, 2009 by Tony Brooks

[Bones]

I just wish everyone, including the manufacturers, would stop using the term leisure batteries - it's meaningless. Gibbo has stated and virtually challenged the battery manufacturers to sue him, that "Dual purpose" batteries, also known in some circles as "leisure batteries" are constructed in a similar manner to starting batteries.

 

Deep cycle batteries are constructed differently and although true deep cycle batteries should not be used for starting (the plates "dancing" under heavy discharges may make them shed material) once you get a bank of three or four the starting load on each may well be less than an inverter so the occasional use for starting should not compromise them to a significant extent. If they are just starting batteries with a fancy label then you can use them for both.

 

The bottom line is that (in my experience) most batter ties are destroyed by sulphation long before they "wear out" so unless you are on top of the charging regime I suspect you can treat them as the same thing. If you can get the charging correct them proper deep cycle batteries should last longer in purely domestic duties.

 

Sorry if this is garbled - under the influence of a bottle of red

 

 

I always thought leisure batteries WERE deep cycle batteries..... am I missing something?!

[Dominic M]

You're not missing anything. It works perfectly. The only downside is that it relies on human memory. And for many (probably most) people that is a big problem.

 

You can forget to charge the domestic bank so after a day cruising they are still flat.

 

You can forget to switch from the engine start battery so after a night moored up you can't start the boat.

 

And so on.

 

But if you always remember to do everything when you should there is nothing wrong with the system at all.

 

Gibbo

Thanks for that. Out of interest, did my switching from both to just the domestics (position 2) after half an hour or so make any difference? I had this idea that the alternator sensed that a battery was fully charged, and that the starter would be fairly quickly, so taking that out of the charging equation was a good idea. Obviously ceasing to charge the starter didn't matter (because the boat always started the next day), but did my switching to domestic only matter at all, or would leaving the switch on "both" have made no difference? (On a simple single alternator system).

 

Of course, with a 1.2.off.both switch, you can simply start the engine off the domestics anyway, if you have to, should you have flattened the start battery by running your cabin off it by accident all evening.

 

How about, instead of alternator controllers and other stuff, we return to the simple switch and when the engine is stopped, an alarm reminds you to set that switch correctly? If we can have one that tells us our car lights are still on, or the key is still in the ignition, then it must be simple.

[Gibbo]

I always thought leisure batteries WERE deep cycle batteries..... am I missing something?!

 

True engine start batteries are just that. They are designed and made for starting engines and nothing else. They can provide a huge amount of power for a short peiod of time. If they are deeply discharged they get wrecked in a very short time. I don't think anyone even makes them anymore.

 

Deep cycle batteries are just that. They are designed to provide a moderate amount of power for long periods, ie until they are deeply discharged. They are expensive.

 

What are fitted to modern vehicles are a modifed engine start battery. They are similar to normal engine start batteries but have slightly thicker plates and slightly different materials to allow them to deal with continuous loads such as vehicle computer systems, alarms etc which draw power continuously. True engine start batteries would quickly become destroyed by this use so the batteries fitted to vehicles have had to be modifed.

 

Leisure batteries are the same as the last paragraph above with some handles stuck on them, a fancy label and a bigger price markup. They are supposed to be a hybrid somewhere between these and deep cycle batteries but all the ones we pulled apart and tested were no different.

 

Gibbo

 

Thanks for that. Out of interest, did my switching from both to just the domestics (position 2) after half an hour or so make any difference? I had this idea that the alternator sensed that a battery was fully charged, and that the starter would be fairly quickly, so taking that out of the charging equation was a good idea. Obviously ceasing to charge the starter didn't matter (because the boat always started the next day), but did my switching to domestic only matter at all, or would leaving the switch on "both" have made no difference? (On a simple single alternator system).

 

Of course, with a 1.2.off.both switch, you can simply start the engine off the domestics anyway, if you have to, should you have flattened the start battery by running your cabin off it by accident all evening.

 

How about, instead of alternator controllers and other stuff, we return to the simple switch and when the engine is stopped, an alarm reminds you to set that switch correctly? If we can have one that tells us our car lights are still on, or the key is still in the ignition, then it must be simple.

 

Hmmmmm

 

We could also go back to pulling the boat with a horse, get rid of the gas cooker, revert to a bucket of water and sh*t in the fields.

 

An alarm as you suggest is just swapping one kind of technology device for another. A worse one at that!

 

Gibbo

[NB Alnwick]

I always thought leisure batteries WERE deep cycle batteries..... am I missing something?!

 

Apparantly not - informed opinion has it that they are made the same as starter batteries but carry a posh label instead. True deep cycle batteries (like railway carriage lighting batteries) are extremely expensive and require a very strict maintenance regime.

 

Phil Trotter's advice to Jane and I, when we bought Alnwick, indicated that we would get just as good value performance from some heavy duty commercial vehicle batteries - the heavier the better as long as they are cheap

[Theo]

I think that this will live more happily in Boat Building and Maintenance.

 

Nick

[chris w]

I do

See, you admit it.........

[Dominic M]

See, you admit it.........

Editing on your part worthy of Stalin

[Dominic M]

Hmmmmm

 

We could also go back to pulling the boat with a horse, get rid of the gas cooker, revert to a bucket of water and sh*t in the fields.

 

An alarm as you suggest is just swapping one kind of technology device for another. A worse one at that!

 

Gibbo

We could indeed go back to the days of horse towing, water supply limited to the capacity of a Buckby can, cook on a solid fuel range and so on.

 

But I wouldn't want to, although the horse part would be interesting if it remained a practical option. Unfortunately the stables and farriers have entirely disappeared from the waterways and people are now allowed to obstruct the towpath by mooring against it interspersed with grumpy men in combat gear dangling long poles across the cut. And, as I have first hand experience of keeping a horse, I can tell you they are a damn sight more demanding on both cash and time than a diesel engine is . Both water and gas installations are pretty simple affairs.

 

The 1.2.B.O switch is a different point. It works, it is cheap, it means you don't have to splash out on alternator controllers, splitting diodes and/or you don't need two alternators - it is in short, delightfully efficient and simple. As the waterways' mags might inform its readership if they didn't worry about a possible loss of advertising revenue. I can certainly be forgetful at times but operating the switch correctly became, as I wrote before, second nature. Best of all, I understand it. Of course, if people prefer to have the gadgets, then fine. I am merely recording my own personal preference, based on practical experience.

 

If a preference for simplicity makes me a Neanderthal, then bring on the rocks!

 

Dominic

[Gibbo]

The 1.2.B.O switch is a different point. It works, it is cheap, it means you don't have to splash out on alternator controllers, splitting diodes and/or you don't need two alternators - it is in short, delightfully efficient and simple. As the waterways' mags might inform its readership if they didn't worry about a possible loss of advertising revenue. I can certainly be forgetful at times but operating the switch correctly became, as I wrote before, second nature. Best of all, I understand it. Of course, if people prefer to have the gadgets, then fine. I am merely recording my own personal preference, based on practical experience.

 

If a preference for simplicity makes me a Neanderthal, then bring on the rocks!

 

Absolutely. But my point is that a manual switch can be forgotten. You then suggested a device to remind you when you'd forgotten. For that to work reliably it would mean the device would have to know when the switch should be in each of its various positions and also what position it is actually in. If it has to know all that, then why not simply have the device operate the switch? Especially as the required relay will probably be about the same price as the manual switch.

 

Gibbo

[NB Alnwick]

The 1.2.B.O switch is a different point. It works, it is cheap, it means you don't have to splash out on alternator controllers, splitting diodes and/or you don't need two alternators - it is in short, delightfully efficient and simple.

 

I am all for keeping things simple and had Alnwick been fitted with such a practical device, I am sure I would have happily continued with it.

 

Unfortunately, we already had a split charge relay system and an 'Adverc' alternator controller. Battery condition was monitored by means of a Durite Voltage gauge which in the event proved to be significantly inaccurate - that may explain why the previous owner modified the Adverc by removing the thermistor so that it charged the batteries at 32 Volts instead of its original setting of 28.8 Volts. The cost of re-instating the thermistor was under £5 and for that we also had free advice from Adverc that echoed and supported the advice we had already obtained from Gibbo.

 

The 'SmartGauge' was fitted to provide an indication of the state of charge of the batteries - it has the advantage of being easily read and understood by both of us and we try to keep the domestic battery bank at 100% charge and not allow it to fall below 75%. It also means that we know when the batteries are fully charged and, as a result, we are making serious savings on the cost of running the generator or engine just to charge the batteries. The SmartGauge was not expensive when compared with the amount I have spent re-wiring the batteries and charging circuits to minimise voltage losses - all of which we hope to recover over time in better battery management and, therefore, longer battery life.

Edited March 9, 2009 by NB Alnwick

[ditchcrawler]

On the subject of batteries Squadron Batteries have gone bust so that bit of info might bargain you a good deal from those with some in stock!

Have you seen the thread about them on the Narrowboatworld forum "failed batteries"

[Dominic M]

Absolutely. But my point is that a manual switch can be forgotten. You then suggested a device to remind you when you'd forgotten. For that to work reliably it would mean the device would have to know when the switch should be in each of its various positions and also what position it is actually in. If it has to know all that, then why not simply have the device operate the switch? Especially as the required relay will probably be about the same price as the manual switch.

 

Gibbo

Yeah. I withdraw my ill-considered idea about an alarm device. That simple system served me well without an alarm. I might not have known the precise state of charge of the batteries, but on an everyday basis we lived happily, watched a bit of telly from time to time, and replaced the batteries after 4 years at not much expense - not when costed pro rata over 48 months.

 

I will say that your Smartgauge gizmo seems to be a useful thing for many - as Graham Oliver testifies - so don't get me wrong. Many people would benefit from such an item on their boat and it is not hugely expensive.

 

Dominic

[steelaway]

and..... can one use leisure batteries at starter batteries and visa versa... well, obviously one 'can' but is it suitable?

 

 

Hi Bones

 

Have a read of this from Charles Sterling

 

http://www.sterling-power.com/support-faq-2.htm

 

Alex

 

I always thought leisure batteries WERE deep cycle batteries..... am I missing something?!

[Ian F B]

Yeah. I withdraw my ill-considered idea about an alarm device. That simple system served me well without an alarm. I might not have known the precise state of charge of the batteries, but on an everyday basis we lived happily, watched a bit of telly from time to time, and replaced the batteries after 4 years at not much expense - not when costed pro rata over 48 months.

 

I will say that your Smartgauge gizmo seems to be a useful thing for many - as Graham Oliver testifies - so don't get me wrong. Many people would benefit from such an item on their boat and it is not hugely expensive.

 

Dominic

 

Having hired boats for many years,all of them had a buzzer to remind you to turn off the ignition,so wiring one up to a 3 position switch should be childs play,

No problem>

Cheers.

Ian F B

[Keeping Up]

Having hired boats for many years,all of them had a buzzer to remind you to turn off the ignition,so wiring one up to a 3 position switch should be childs play,

No problem>

Cheers.

Ian F B

I hate that system. Every time you switch on the ignition to start the engine, this bl**dy buzzer goes off.

 

I still hate it, especially when it's a lovely peaceful morning and the hire boat next to you disturbs the peace with 10 secinds of buzzig while the plugs heat up.

[chris w]

I hate that system. Every time you switch on the ignition to start the engine, this bl**dy buzzer goes off.

 

I still hate it, especially when it's a lovely peaceful morning and the hire boat next to you disturbs the peace with 10 secinds of buzzig while the plugs heat up.

Presumably the buzzer isn't specifically to warn you that the ignition is ON but to warn you that the oil pressure is too low (well it would be with the engine OFF!!) and that the alternator is not producing a charge current (ditto!!). I've fitted a switch to mine so that I can disable the buzzer until after the engine is started, when it will then serve as a true warning.

 

Chris

[NB Alnwick]

I often wonder why starting a compression ignition engine needs to be made to look so complicated.

I remember that one of boats that Jane and I hired, had a four position "Ignition Switch" (yes that was what it said on the label!) and an array of 'worry lights' (a term I have borrowed from Phil Trotter) in addition to that annoying buzzer. And yet, back in the 1950s, Lister were producing diesel gen-sets for farms that could start instantly without human intervention . . .

 

All that is really needed on a boat is a 'push to start' button and another 'push to pre-heat' button if the engine needs this added complication.