Historic markings

[Teggles]

I have often noted that many narrowboats have a "Daisy Wheel" - 6 petal flower symbol on their boat. Does anybody know the origin of this symbol?

[dave moore]

Hi

I assume that the device you're talking about is the "Compass Rose", the geometric design produced by drawing a circle and then stepping around the circumference drawing semi circles thro' the centre. It's a design I often use to separate the two main colours on a traditional bow flash.

 

I've no ideas of its origin ,nor am I aware of any significant meaning, I believe it to be part of thr whole decorative tradition on commercial boats. Others included diamonds along with other playing card symbols of hearts and clubs (the spade, a bad luck symbol, was never used.) These motifs would have been easy for dockyard painters to create and apply. Various arrangements were applied to particular companies' craft as an identifying feature. I'm still intrigued to find myself making a living, in part, from appling these and other tradtional work to modern pleasure boats nearly 40 years after long distance carrying ceased.

Anyone else have thoughts?

Cheers

Dave

[Teggles]

Thanks Dave, to give a reason for such an odd ball question, my wife is just about to start her dissertation for an MSc in historic building consevation, and I am her research assistant!

 

Now these "daisy wheels" and other marks are found in older buildings and date mainly from the 17th/18th centuries, but have been found on more modern buildings. They are apotropaic marks, so called witch marks; and are meant to keep evil spirits/demons away. Often found in buildings connected with the church, they can be found near fireplaces, windows or doors.

 

Iam wondering if there has been some kind of transfer in the 18th century from buildings to boats, as a good luck symbol?

[carlt]

Iam wondering if there has been some kind of transfer in the 18th century from buildings to boats, as a good luck symbol?

As the compass rose is a navigation aid I'd have thought the transfer would have been from sea going boats to inland.

[Derek R.]

As the compass rose is a navigation aid I'd have thought the transfer would have been from sea going boats to inland.

 

And the Rose as in compass as well as flower has 32 petals and points. You may find it goes back and pre-dates Christian religions as do many things, but that has little to do with the appearance on boats - or does it?

[Phil Speight]

As the compass rose is a navigation aid I'd have thought the transfer would have been from sea going boats to inland.

Unless the "compass" element is referring to the ( essential ) use of a compass in the production of the design. I think it is a motif that has existed almost as long as (drawing) compasses have been in use and has been absorbed into all manner of unrelated traditions.

Phil

[carlt]

Possibly, except there is a "compass rose" on every map, which I assumed the"compass rose", in art, was a stylised version of:

Edited February 27, 2009 by carlt

[Speedwheel]

Thanks Dave, to give a reason for such an odd ball question, my wife is just about to start her dissertation for an MSc in historic building consevation, and I am her research assistant!

 

Now these "daisy wheels" and other marks are found in older buildings and date mainly from the 17th/18th centuries, but have been found on more modern buildings. They are apotropaic marks, so called witch marks; and are meant to keep evil spirits/demons away. Often found in buildings connected with the church, they can be found near fireplaces, windows or doors.

 

Iam wondering if there has been some kind of transfer in the 18th century from buildings to boats, as a good luck symbol?

 

oh where is she doing it? In doing the same at Birmingham (Ironbridge Institute)

[Roger t' Bodger]

When I first came upon geometry at school I felt like there was order beneath the chaos. Drawing circles with a compass and playing with ways of subdividing with diameter & radius lengths only then to discover Pi of 3.142 and it was getting quite magical and predetermined. So clever stuff done with a compass can ward off evil spirits is a perfectly logical assumption. The compass rose was a pleasing thing to create as it was so simple but alluded to higher sacred knowledge. Could it be the geometry version of the Greenman?

[kitman]

http://www.gisnet.com/notebook/comprose.php

 

Did some boats have an anchor motif on the top bend aswell? Or did I dream that?!

[Derek R.]

http://www.gisnet.com/notebook/comprose.php

 

Did some boats have an anchor motif on the top bend aswell? Or did I dream that?!

 

You didn't dream it. The small anchor was a trade mark of Nurser's yard at Braunston.

 

I don't think gisnet have the whole story, and I'll have to rake my brain cell for the reference, but I did read that the early Vikings used a primitive compass of sorts made of carved wood (didn't know wood was magnetic did you!). I seem to recall it used shadow from the Sun as one element. The interesting thing was, it had 32 points.

[Teggles]

Thanks for all the replies, the idea that the symbol maybe a compass rose (as opposed to a flower) is very interesting, and the suggestion that it may have come from sea going vessels to narrowboats is plausible: but.....as it is found in exactly the same form (just six points or petals) as that found on buildings and very rarely furniture, plus the fact that you do not need a compass on a canal (apologies to all of you who have bought sat nav's).....I'm struggling with that as an explanation.

 

Of course adding to the problem is explaining the symbol on buildings, as there are lots of theories about those. But if anyone else has any further ideas, I would be very glad to hear from you.

 

Satellite; She is at Oxford Brookes. She does brains, I do brawn!

[Derek R.]

Thanks for all the replies, the idea that the symbol maybe a compass rose (as opposed to a flower) is very interesting, and the suggestion that it may have come from sea going vessels to narrowboats is plausible: but.....as it is found in exactly the same form (just six points or petals) as that found on buildings and very rarely furniture, plus the fact that you do not need a compass on a canal (apologies to all of you who have bought sat nav's).....I'm struggling with that as an explanation.

 

Of course adding to the problem is explaining the symbol on buildings, as there are lots of theories about those. But if anyone else has any further ideas, I would be very glad to hear from you.

(snip)

 

The solution and answer to your question of why six points is simple.

 

If you take a compass and draw a circle, and without changing the distance between the point and pencil tip, place the point at any point on the circumference and draw an arc that bisects the circle at two points, then continue to repeat the process from each point that the arcs bisect the circle - you end up with a six petalled pattern.

 

It was the simplest type of pattern, easily remembered, without any need to change the dimensions once the circle radius had been chosen, and therefore most likely widely copied where any kind of circular 'flower like' pattern might be deemed suitable decoration without the need to be an artist, or a mathematician. Anyone could re-create it, without the need for literacy even.

 

Derek

Edited February 28, 2009 by Derek R.

[Teggles]

The construction of the figure is well known, it is the symbolism behind it that I am after. What does it represent? The compass is a good suggestion, but as this symbol appears on buildings which once belonged to the church, could it be a moral compass? Do we have any memebers of the clergy visiting this forum?

[BuckbyLocks]

The construction of the figure is well known, it is the symbolism behind it that I am after. What does it represent? The compass is a good suggestion, but as this symbol appears on buildings which once belonged to the church, could it be a moral compass? Do we have any memebers of the clergy visiting this forum?

 

 

I think the Compass mention is a red herring. Not enough Points. There is a suggestion that most of the boat decoration has roots in the Oxford Movement, which has something to do with religion I understand. Might ask Son in Law when I see him later in the week, (in the Vicarage).

[Derek R.]

The construction of the figure is well known, it is the symbolism behind it that I am after. What does it represent? The compass is a good suggestion, but as this symbol appears on buildings which once belonged to the church, could it be a moral compass? Do we have any memebers of the clergy visiting this forum?

 

I suppose you could divide the 360° of a navigation compass into 60° segments, but only two of them would point to any generally recognised points as seen in Carl's illustration posted earlier. But from the building point of view, compasses or dividers, were commonly used and often form part of an engineers emblem - symbol if you like, representing their trade. However, I believe if you are looking for some kind of complex meaning behind six points, then I have no doubt many will attempt to show any number to suit their fancy. Complex symbolism usually created complex patterns, rather like puzzles to decipher, or recognise for the initiated.

 

Symbolically, the wheel represents the World - the great disc upon which we sat, and fell off the edge if we strayed too far, the wheel of life. The Celtic wheel has six or eight points, the latter is also found in Eastern symbolism of which there are truckloads.

 

A good study point may begin HERE, CHAPTERS 8 & 9 - the symbol of the circle, and of petalled flowers. A lot of writing, but little complexity. A builders apprentice, a child, and a dockyard painter, will see the simple beauty in a pleasant, easily reproduced pattern that embodies the World, life, and flowers.

 

Good luck with the search, it would be interesting if you find something substantive, other than the above.

[Tam & Di]

The construction of the figure is well known, it is the symbolism behind it that I am after. What does it represent? The compass is a good suggestion, but as this symbol appears on buildings which once belonged to the church, could it be a moral compass? Do we have any memebers of the clergy visiting this forum?

 

I don't think it was an intellectual or theological exercise at all. It is just a nice easy way to get a pretty pattern. You can do lines that cross and give you triangles, you can use a compass and make circles. One year I painted the tops of the stands with Union flags - not because I'm particularly patriotic, it was just an interesting idea at the time. Painters can get bored doing the same thing time after time, and try little twists to tweak the theme. Sometimes these work and get continued and maybe even picked up by others. Sometimes they're a one off. Why try to impose symbolism upon something when it does not exist. I'm sure I could invent symbolic reasoning for just about every aspect of a boat, but I'm sure reality is more prosiac.

[Pluto]

Symbolically, the wheel represents the World - the great disc upon which we sat, and fell off the edge if we strayed too far, the wheel of life. The Celtic wheel has six or eight points, the latter is also found in Eastern symbolism of which there are truckloads.

 

A good study point may begin HERE, CHAPTERS 8 & 9 - the symbol of the circle, and of petalled flowers. A lot of writing, but little complexity. A builders apprentice, a child, and a dockyard painter, will see the simple beauty in a pleasant, easily reproduced pattern that embodies the World, life, and flowers.

 

Good luck with the search, it would be interesting if you find something substantive, other than the above.

Although not directly relevant, decoration on L&LC boats used scrolls which may have developed from early religious iconography, and then appeared on the canal via maritime traditions. A more complete description will be published in May in my new book. A preview can be found at http://www.mikeclarke.myzen.co.uk/brightwork.htm

[Kez]

The construction of the figure is well known, it is the symbolism behind it that I am after. What does it represent? The compass is a good suggestion, but as this symbol appears on buildings which once belonged to the church, could it be a moral compass? Do we have any memebers of the clergy visiting this forum?

 

The six pointed flower shape is a variation on a Magdalen Rose. They have been around since Christianity arrived in England and were carved and drawn onto buildings, carts and other things that people wanted to protect. They were thought to ward off evil spirits and keep the influence of witches at bay. I don't know how they came onto canals; I suppose that when farmers and carters worked on the first Narrowboats, they brought them into the paintwork, along with many other designs.

Mary Magdalene was a figure of repentance for the vanities of the world and became somewhat idealised by the church as the perfect woman, repentant for her sins and begging forgiveness; aswell as reminding people that forgiveness was on offer those who confesssed their sins and were truly repentant.

 

IT IS NOT A COMPASS ROSE. The compass rose was built on different symbolism and practical consideration, and was not brought into canal art

 

Does that answer your question?

Edited March 4, 2009 by Kez

[carlt]

But the Magdalene Rose is a twin centred rose which symbolised MM's status as Jesus' soulmate, not a geometric figure.

 

If you Google it you get swamped with superstitious garbage but nothing that looks like this:

 

[Kez]

But the Magdalene Rose is a twin centred rose which symbolised MM's status as Jesus' soulmate, not a geometric figure.

 

If you Google it you get swamped with superstitious garbage

 

Thats a valid point, but the twin centred rose is a relatively modern symbol; if you root around 15/16/17th century roof beams you will find the six pointed geometric design.

 

Don't forget that to etch it on a church or house the builders would be using whatever tools they had to hand, and that design was simple yet iconic. The trash that swamps the internet is a from a design that was put about in the 1800's when plate drawings were the height of fashion, letting artists get over entusiastic with their pencils.

It has been moderised with the popularity of the Davinci code, the conspiracy theorists and the overly romantic with to much time on their hands.

 

When the narrowboats came along they were often manned by farmers and labourers who would have seen the symbol and remembered it (mainly as a protection against evil spirits and bad luck, I'll grant you): they would have brought it with them onto the canals if for no other reason then as somthing that reminded them of home.

 

When last I was there, Boot watermill had a fine example on a beam that had been taken out for conservation; although it may have been put back by now.

Edited March 4, 2009 by Kez

[dave moore]

Thanks Carl

You've clarified exactly the shape I described earlier...I've known it, perhaps erroneously, as a compass rose since schooldays and I subscribe to the earlier post suggestion that it was an attractive and simple design to paint on a boat, having no symbolic value. Like other traditional elements of narrowboat decoration they are unpretentious yet satisfying for both painter and customer, a point that could be taken on board by those who demand extravagant decorative work in the belief that they are developing the tradition. I'll stop before my grump wakes up...except to add that when I was a primary school teacher, upper juniors used to love drawing the design featured on the ramshead of your post. To me, it was an instinctive response to the design and I suspect its popularity with boaters was based on those lines.

Then again, I could be totally wrong!!!

Cheers

Dave

[carlt]

Personally I think it originated when boat painters pinched their kids' spyrographs.

[Derek R.]

It's one of mankind's traits to confirm he is a most complex creature by seeking complexity in life thereby setting himself apart from animals, from the latest widget to use and 'plug in' whereupon it becomes a necessity, to seeking out 'meanings'. In some cases widgets have been of great use, and learning has broadened our minds, but the simplicity with which a flower like appearance can be created on a flat surface with only a pair of compasses - as we must all have done as a child as Dave says - is as complicated as it gets. Anything above that is a seeking for more complexity - such as a spirograph - pretty patterns yes, but you cannot create those with a simple compass. And a Rose? Why not. Its number of petals ordinarily number 32 - the same number as on a navigation compass and possibly taken from the flower but that is a complication, and I fancy only a diversion from the ancient symbol of the Rose as that of love and beauty. Which rules me out.

 

Ask a child, just having discovered how to draw a geometrically perfect flower shape - what it symbolises, and they will probably smile and say: "It's a flower".

 

Derek

[Derek R.]

Speaking of diversions, I find it curious that some will speak of witch signs, and devil signs associated with certain shapes and in certain location in and on buildings - and elsewhere. A lot of these things came to pass with the introduction of religion, the ultimate tool creating a culture of the ruling classes and gain obedience from the masses. To not comply was to risk death by burning or drowning, and any diversion from the 'faith' was countered with dire endings in pits of fire. Certain previously pagan symbols of Earth and constellation worship (the pentangle springs to mind) were changed to Devil worship to bring all under the ultimate 'cloak' of any chosen religion. If a woman used plants and herbs to ease a sickness, she was denounced a witch, anything associated with the natural order of the world and its content, was classified demonic, doubtless some flowers became symbolic for just that reason.

 

Likewise this post might be described by some as 'a Devils advocate'.

 

Derek