The description "Narrow Boat"

[alan_fincher]

There were suggestions in the "barging" thread that "Narrow Boat" might not be a historic term at all, and could have been invented by L.T.C. ("Tom") Rolt.

 

So I thought I'd check, (wearing my well worn anorak).

 

I can find direct references to "Narrow Boat" in the UK censuses for England and Wales for both 1861 and 1881.

 

This occurs as a locational thing - e.g. "Near Watch House On Canal 'Loretta' Narrow Boat".

 

Also as an occupation - e.g. "Captain of Narrow Boat".

 

So I think there is absolutely no doubt that the term "Narrow Boat" has been valid for approaching 150 years.

 

I do not have access to the 1841 and 1851 censuses via anything that allows a keyword lookup, but I'd be very surprised if all the censuses 1841 to 1901 didn't contain some references to "Narrow Boat".

 

Additionally the term "Monkey Boat" can be traced back to at least 1881, where one Alice Dimmock's polace of birth is "in a Monkey Boat", (she is living at a land based address in Limehouse, but her husband is a "Bargeman").

 

So can anybody prove "Narrow Boat" existed before 1861 or "Monkey Boat" before 1881?

 

Alan

[magpie patrick]

So can anybody prove "Narrow Boat" existed before 1861 or "Monkey Boat" before 1881?

 

Alan

 

No, but we do have a contemporary report of "narrow barges" on the Somerset Coal Canal in about 1820 (at that time "wide" barges could get to Tucking Mill)

[Water Rat.]

Surely since the first narrow canals were built here from 1760, and boats were built 'narrow' for the sole purpose of navigating these narrow locks, was this not the first use of the term? There is a good chapter on history in Tony Lewery's book Flowers Afloat, if you cannot get hold of the book, I can photocopy the chapter and leave it for you at the office in the marina.

 

I am always amused at the way the canal arts are taken so seriously, especially as they did not exist before that time - so it is a relatively new traditon in our history.

[carlt]

Surely since the first narrow canals were built here from 1760, and boats were built 'narrow' for the sole purpose of navigating these narrow locks, was this not the first use of the term? There is a good chapter on history in Tony Lewery's book Flowers Afloat, if you cannot get hold of the book, I can photocopy the chapter and leave it for you at the office in the marina.

 

I am always amused at the way the canal arts are taken so seriously, especially as they did not exist before that time - so it is a relatively new traditon in our history.

They weren't "narrow canals", though, just "canals" and, as the "narrow boats" were preceded by the "starvationers", at 4.5 feet wide, they must have appeared pretty wide, in comparison.

Edited January 19, 2009 by carlt

[Water Rat.]

They weren't "narrow canals", though, just "canals" and, as the "narrow boats" were preceded by the "starvationers", at 4.5 feet wide, they must have appeared pretty wide, in comparison.

Well - I am just quoting Tony Lewery's book - 'Narrow boats did not exist before about 1760.' Chapter 1, first line. Perhaps he got it wrong?

[carlt]

Well - I am just quoting Tony Lewery's book - 'Narrow boats did not exist before about 1760.' Chapter 1, first line. Perhaps he got it wrong?

No but they weren't necessarily called "narrow boats" back then and they were preceded by narrower boats.

[Water Rat.]

No but they weren't necessarily called "narrow boats" back then and they were preceded by narrower boats.

For sure you are not wrong, but his book is worth a look as it is a nice little potted history of the start of the whole commercial formalisation of the canal system starting with the Duke of Bridgewater's canal in 1761.

[carlt]

For sure you are not wrong, but his book is worth a look as it is a nice little potted history of the start of the whole commercial formalisation of the canal system starting with the Duke of Bridgewater's canal in 1761.

I know, I've got it.

[Hairy-Neil]

.....it is a nice little potted history of the start of the whole commercial formalisation of the canal system starting with the Duke of Bridgewater's canal in 1761.

 

He got that wrong too then, everyone knows the first canal built in that era was the Sankey Navigation.

[Roger t' Bodger]

Man has been building proper boats ie with hulls, for many thousands of years and they discovered that if you made long and thin with a pointy bit on the front they are much easier to move through water. The hulls discovered on the banks of the Humber at South Ferriby were dated to around 4000 years ago and of course were constructed without much in the way of bronze tools or any metal fixings and were probably used as ferries to cross the Humber.

This is a half scale replica built recently and has proved to handle very well even in choppy conditions.

But it takes no imagination to see a boat like this being rowed, paddled, and pulled up every navigable river from the year dot.

 

As for what they called them and what they painted on them - you will have to invent a time machine to find out but I think we would be very surprised at the high level of technology, organisation and society of that time.... 'Barbarian' is a word used only by Romans for societies they couldn't conquer....

 

Roger

[Tam & Di]

So can anybody prove "Narrow Boat" existed before 1861 or "Monkey Boat" before 1881?

 

Alan

 

I've put an excerpt from John Hassel's Tour of the Grand Junction Canal in 1819 on the General Boating 'Not a barge' thread - he refers to use of the term monkey boat at that time.

Edited January 19, 2009 by Tam & Di

[Pluto]

They weren't "narrow canals", though, just "canals" and, as the "narrow boats" were preceded by the "starvationers", at 4.5 feet wide, they must have appeared pretty wide, in comparison.

 

What people think of as starvationers today are really comparatively modern maintenance boats. Around 1790 there were six different sizes of mine boat carrying varying numbers of containers. The largest were 69 feet long, the same length as early narrowboats - which might have been narrow boats then. Of the six different types, each had an old and new variant carrying different amounts. The size of the boat dictated how far into the mine it could work. Later in the mid-nineteenth century there were just three different sizes. An article I wrote about the history of the mine canals has been published, but unfortunately only in Polish and German :-(

 

He got that wrong too then, everyone knows the first canal built in that era was the Sankey Navigation.

You're forgetting all the French canals built over a century previous to the Bridgewater, details of which were widely published in England. The Duke even visited them circa 1753. The Canal du Midi of 1681 (IIRC) is regarded as the world's first proper canal, though the Canal de Briare of 1640 runs it close. The only major difference was that the Canal du Midi had an extensive reservoir and feeder system, though its locks were less well designed than those of the Briare.

[Max Sinclair]

James Brindley quoted in the 1760.s for a wide canal in Droitwich with the alternative of an economical half price narrow canal. Napolean forced the word Economy into our thinking.

[Steilsteven]

.

 

You're forgetting all the French canals built over a century previous to the Bridgewater, details of which were widely published in England. The Duke even visited them circa 1753. The Canal du Midi of 1681 (IIRC) is regarded as the world's first proper canal, though the Canal de Briare of 1640 runs it close. The only major difference was that the Canal du Midi had an extensive reservoir and feeder system, though its locks were less well designed than those of the Briare.

 

I thought it was the Chinese about 3000 years ago?

 

Keith.

[magpie patrick]

I thought it was the Chinese about 3000 years ago?

 

Keith.

 

It was: the grand canal well BC, they also developed pound locks as well, but not for the obvious reason, prior to this they had slipways and boats were vulnerable to bandits when half way up (or down). The major advantage of the pound lock was that a roof could be fitted...

[Hairy-Neil]

I thought it was the Chinese about 3000 years ago?

 

Keith.

It was: the grand canal well BC, they also developed pound locks as well,.......

 

 

Ah, but did the Chinese invent the narrow boat?

 

[AMModels]

I believe they were nallow boats.

 

 

ok ok getting my coat!

[Athy]

Lacism?

[Pluto]

I thought it was the Chinese about 3000 years ago?

 

Keith.

The Chinese may have built the first chamber lock, but there is more to a canal than locks. The significance of the Canal du Midi is that it had everything needed for a canal, the most important feature being the reservoir and water supply system. Such an extensive system capable of feeding a canal throughout the year independently of rivers had not been built previously.

[MikeV]

No but they weren't necessarily called "narrow boats" back then and they were preceded by narrower boats.

I thought I'd read somewhere that canal boats were also often called "long boats", as opposed to "short" boats such as many of the river barges - e.g. Leeds & Liverpool Short Boat.

 

I believe also that one of the problems with researching such historical terms is that many of the canal people could not read or write and so there is very little documentary evidence of what words were used in everyday speech.

[Phil Speight]

There were suggestions in the "barging" thread that "Narrow Boat" might not be a historic term at all, and could have been invented by L.T.C. ("Tom") Rolt.

 

So I thought I'd check, (wearing my well worn anorak).

 

I can find direct references to "Narrow Boat" in the UK censuses for England and Wales for both 1861 and 1881.

 

This occurs as a locational thing - e.g. "Near Watch House On Canal 'Loretta' Narrow Boat".

 

Also as an occupation - e.g. "Captain of Narrow Boat".

 

So I think there is absolutely no doubt that the term "Narrow Boat" has been valid for approaching 150 years.

 

I do not have access to the 1841 and 1851 censuses via anything that allows a keyword lookup, but I'd be very surprised if all the censuses 1841 to 1901 didn't contain some references to "Narrow Boat".

 

Additionally the term "Monkey Boat" can be traced back to at least 1881, where one Alice Dimmock's polace of birth is "in a Monkey Boat", (she is living at a land based address in Limehouse, but her husband is a "Bargeman").

 

So can anybody prove "Narrow Boat" existed before 1861 or "Monkey Boat" before 1881?

 

Alan

Interestingly ( well I think it is ) I have evidence that BW refered on blueprints to "Narrow Trading Boats". Anyone else come across it ?

Phil

[David Schweizer]

Surely since the first narrow canals were built here from 1760, and boats were built 'narrow' for the sole purpose of navigating these narrow locks, was this not the first use of the term? There is a good chapter on history in Tony Lewery's book Flowers Afloat, if you cannot get hold of the book, I can photocopy the chapter and leave it for you at the office in the marina.

I am always amused at the way the canal arts are taken so seriously, especially as they did not exist before that time - so it is a relatively new traditon in our history.

So where do you place Art Nouveau, Art Deco. Impressionism, etc. etc. in the table of amusement? All of them are taken seriously and have an equally short history. Or has it got something to do with elitism and money?

[magpie patrick]

So where do you place Art Nouveau, Art Deco. Impressionism, etc. etc. in the table of amusement? All of them are taken seriously and have an equally short history. Or has it got something to do with elitism and money?

 

Well said David, in fact there are very few things, art or otherwise, that are particularly old, most team sports go back no further than the mid 19th century (except for Cricket), how many of us ride a horse or a pony and trap, many of my tools would not be recognised by a craftsman 200 years ago (the two bench planes would be)...

 

 

what does amuse me though is how seriously some of us (and I include me) take the terminology of a bygone age when to the average boater then probably didn't worry and used much language we don't: how many steerers referred to their boats as "narrow boats"? Motors, butties, possibly Joshers etc, but it was the people that wern't on them that called them narrow boats because they had to distinguish them from other boats they encountered

[David Schweizer]

Well said David, in fact there are very few things, art or otherwise, that are particularly old, most team sports go back no further than the mid 19th century (except for Cricket), how many of us ride a horse or a pony and trap, many of my tools would not be recognised by a craftsman 200 years ago (the two bench planes would be)...

 

 

what does amuse me though is how seriously some of us (and I include me) take the terminology of a bygone age when to the average boater then probably didn't worry and used much language we don't: how many steerers referred to their boats as "narrow boats"? Motors, butties, possibly Joshers etc, but it was the people that wern't on them that called them narrow boats because they had to distinguish them from other boats they encountered

Apart from the Electric Drills, Router, and Jig Saw, virtually everything in my workshop would be immediately recognisable to a craftsman of 200 years ago, in fact many of them are over 200 years old. But then I do collect and restore old tools as a hobby.

[Pluto]

Surely since the first narrow canals were built here from 1760, and boats were built 'narrow' for the sole purpose of navigating these narrow locks, was this not the first use of the term? There is a good chapter on history in Tony Lewery's book Flowers Afloat, if you cannot get hold of the book, I can photocopy the chapter and leave it for you at the office in the marina.

 

I am always amused at the way the canal arts are taken so seriously, especially as they did not exist before that time - so it is a relatively new traditon in our history.

I am just about to publish a book on the traditional boat painting on the L&LC - have a look at http://www.mikeclarke.myzen.co.uk/brightwork.htm for more details - and I suspect that the style has its origins in Celtic traditions, so a little older than 200 years.