Waddingtons Boatyard, Swinton.

[Derek R.]

It would be great fun to sail one of those monsters

 

Book a trip with the Humber Keel and Sloop Preservation Society

http://www.humberships.org.uk/html/to_book_the_ships.htm

[Derek R.]

Pedant alert, as Mr Fincher might say. Which is the Keel and which is the Sloop?

 

I know they're mostly called Keels once the sailing gear has been removed, and the difference is more than sail rig.

http://www.humberships.org.uk/index.html

 

Oh! - and love the CA dormobile! Wonderful colours.

 

Not a lot in it, but Tony Woodward, who for years lived aboard Daybreak on the Thames (and still might) confidently told me that Sloops always had curved hatch covers and the Keels, square rigged, had two sets of sloping covers like Turog.

 

Reading Waterways Festival 1981. Sloop Daybreak, with Keel Reliance alongside:

 

Swopped places:

 

A bridge too low. Brentford High Street.

 

After some contemplation, we flooded the foc'sle bilge and recruited a dozen souls from the boatyard who all crammed into the foc'sle to get the fore end down a bit:

 

Under - by that much!

 

Golden moments: (They always are when it's someone else's boat)

[Timleech]

Not a lot in it, but Tony Woodward, who for years lived aboard Daybreak on the Thames (and still might) confidently told me that Sloops always had curved hatch covers and the Keels, square rigged, had two sets of sloping covers like Turog.

 

 

Your pictures do rather seem to contradict that thesis

 

It's certainly one I'd never heard before

 

Tim

 

(former part-owner of the 'keel' Beecliffe, which definitely always had curved ('Carling') hatch boards)

Edited December 24, 2008 by Timleech

[Derek R.]

Your pictures do rather seem to contradict that thesis

 

It's certainly one I'd never heard before

 

Tim

 

(former part-owner of the 'keel' Beecliffe, which definitely always had curved ('Carling') hatch boards)

 

Contradict? Support surely. But being no expert, I shall ask the horse - back later.

 

Derek

[Timleech]

Contradict? Support surely. But being no expert, I shall ask the horse - back later.

 

Derek

 

My first viewing of your pics suggested that both vessels had curved hatch boards, looking again I see it's not so clear. Presumably then Reliance has or had ridge boards?

 

Tim

[Pluto]

Not a lot in it, but Tony Woodward, who for years lived aboard Daybreak on the Thames (and still might) confidently told me that Sloops always had curved hatch covers and the Keels, square rigged, had two sets of sloping covers like Turog.

 

There was one difference related to the rigging, though it was of more importance on wooden boats. Keels had a removable knighthead whilst sloops just had an extended stem post to which the forestay for the mast was fixed. It is always difficult to find a definitive variation as keels were converted to sloops and vice versa. Knightheads were also fitted on some L&LC craft until around 1900, showing their origins from coastal sailing craft. Regarding hatches, Edward Paget-Tomlinson makes no distinction in his Keel book, only mentioning that flat hatches were generally used on lighters.

[tosher]

I wish I'd have known you were there Carl. I could have met you for a pint. My boats only a couple of miles away at Tully's in Rotherham.

 

If you pass again...

 

Lee

 

Sorry to be slightly off topic so hope this is allowed -- Does any one now where red diesel can be bought in this neck of the woods??? Iwant to fill up all my containers while it is cheap. Purely for heating and battery charging of course. Cheers. tosher

[Derek R.]

My first viewing of your pics suggested that both vessels had curved hatch boards, looking again I see it's not so clear. Presumably then Reliance has or had ridge boards?

 

Tim

 

Yes Tim, they were flat, rising to meet at the ridge. I haven't found any other reference to one or other type being defined as a Keel or a Sloop as defined by their hatch arrangement so far, so it may be a case of Chinese whispers. I've mailed the Humber Keel & Sloop preservation soc. they may be able to say if it's coincidence, nonsense, or otherwise. It may be the generic term is Keel, but with fore and aft rig they become Sloops.

 

All little things sent to tease us.

 

A little aside; the hatch boards we had on the Dutchman could be stood on their edges along the top of the coming and connected with vertically mounted steel flanges that slotted over the coming edge, thus increasing the height of the coming by a good three feet. It took me ages of head scratching to discover what these strange lumps of metal in the lockers were!! Seems they may have been used when carrying light bulky cargo - big bales perhaps.

 

Derek

 

There was one difference related to the rigging, though it was of more importance on wooden boats. Keels had a removable knighthead whilst sloops just had an extended stem post to which the forestay for the mast was fixed. It is always difficult to find a definitive variation as keels were converted to sloops and vice versa. Knightheads were also fitted on some L&LC craft until around 1900, showing their origins from coastal sailing craft. Regarding hatches, Edward Paget-Tomlinson makes no distinction in his Keel book, only mentioning that flat hatches were generally used on lighters.

 

Now that sounds far more likely an account. Thanks for that.

 

Derek

[Derek R.]

Well the hatch shape theory is blown away. A mail from the HKSPS secretary suggests this is not an indication of rig:

 

Dear Derek, I will check with others who may know more than me but I think the type of hatch covers were just the preference of the skipper or owner who had the Keel or Sloop built. The two types of hatch boards used, the curved boards on our Sloop "Amy Howson" are full width and need two men to move them whilst the smaller boards on the Keel "Comrade" can be moved by one man. The one thing that may throw water on Tony,s theory is that when "Amy Howson" was built in 1914 she was named "Sophia" and was rigged as a Keel until 1916. Seasons greetings from the misty Humber. Keith Sivertsen sec HKSPS

So that buries that one.

 

Best for Christmas - Derek

[DHutch]

What condition is Turog.

- Cant say i have the time or the money to hand right now, but as you say, they would make an excellent home.

[magpie patrick]

I love not only the boats but the boatyard: it too seems to be hanging by a thread. Tis also the first few yards of the Dearne and Dove and you can see the third lock, high and dry, above the pics

 

There used to be a boat moored above it!, presumably no hope of it ever moving, but it was lived on.

 

The problem with preservation is the outlay. Now if someone would give Odana TUROG, ancd then she could sell her own boat for a reasonable price, Turog might be saved.

 

Sorry Nicki, but you keep saying how much you want a bigger boat...

[carlt]

I don't think the boatyard is under any threat.

 

Victor Waddington died a multi-millionaire and his sons show no desire to give up the yard.

[carlt]

A piece about Victor Waddington by Mike Taylor:

"Victor Waddington has been dead for over five years now. The boating side of his business passed into the capable hands of his elder son Stephen, whilst his other son Tony seems to be making a great success of the woodyard.

 

Victor by his letters and successful efforts to obtain work for his barges was almost single handedly responsible for keeping the Sheffield & South Yorkshire Navigation commercially alive when the majority of its locks were only able to accommodate craft 61 feet in length and 15 beam which were becoming steadily less economic as the load capacities of lorries and railway wagons increased over the years.

 

When the navigation was ‘improved’ with much longer locks in the early 1980s he quickly realized that British Waterways were replacing experienced men with academics of limited practical waterway experience and set about educating these individuals by initiating meetings and sending letters to correct their misconceptions that canals were exclusively for leisure use and that they had noneed to be as well maintained below the water as above it.

 

Regular successful claims for damage sustained below the waterline by his loaded vessels as they travelled from Goole to Rotherham re-inforced the latter point in the 1990s.

 

A multi millionaire who in his more reflective moments tended to castigate himself for persisting with British Waterways’ obstructions, he could have afforded to be permanently cruising aboard his beloved Queen Elizabeth 2 on the considerable income he derived from national companies as rent for having their

premises on his land.

 

Retirement never came however and his 76 years at Swinton working more than 12 hours on at least six days each week must surely give him some world record.

 

In 1991 I began preparing a book about Victor much of which was based on interviews which took place in his Swinton office between 6.00 a.m. and 8.30 a.m. on Saturday mornings.

 

The book was published in 1999 shortly after his death. Occasionally in our talks he mentioned non boating aspects of his life that did not appear in the book, such as the time in the 1920s when his parents persuaded him to go to Sheffield each Saturday morning for banjo lessons because

they thought his social life was somewhat lacking. The lessons lasted for three months though my laughter at the thought of Victor strumming rhythmically away on the instrument kept recurring for considerably longer.

 

Much later in his life he drove me from Swinton to his printer in Pocklington and when I asked him why he kept covering his left eye with his hand he informed

me that glaucoma gave him double vision and his right eye produced the accurate image.

 

Enthusiasm, initiative, persistence and good practical common sense stayed with Victor to the end. The book covers his building of wharves and warehouses both at Eastwood and on the Trent. It also describes his purchase very cheaply, of a pit heap at Aldwarke, the mine spoil of which was subsequently sold for reclamation of the coal, and the land beneath it worked for extraction of aggregate, after all of which, developers were offering him six figure sums to build on it.

 

Perhaps the most notable happening described in the book however, occurred when he was asked to carry four 350 tonne castings. There were no vessels able to accommodate such a cargo on the local waterways. Victor’s simplistic yet successful response was to slice the bow off one vessel and the stern off another similar vessel before fastening them together, calling the new barge Confidence and sending the vessel to carry the loads. He even convinced

the insurance inspector to grant him indemnity.

 

Coincidentally another non waterway venture which escaped mention in the book took place near my home in Dronfield.Victor bought industrial land there and more than three dozen companies chose to erect premises on it. Unfortunately an underground fire spread to the site from adjoining land and he spent

nearly a million pounds trying to extinguish it, eventually realising that the ‘experts’ he had employed were anything but that, concluding that they followed the fire rather than worked ahead of it. In frustration at losing rents, being threatened with claims for damages and feeling liable for costs incurred in putting out the fire, he resorted to the simplest of actions and sent his men from Swinton to the site with pumps. Ignoring warnings that his plan was unsafe because flammable hydrogen gas would be produced, water was then pumped up night and day from the adjacent River Dron to saturate the land, and within a month the fire had been put out."

 

Mike Taylor’s book is called Victor Waddington Giant of the South Yorkshire Waterways

[carlt]

It's quite a shame we don't have a wooden West Country Boat (Keel) left the nearest example being the steel keel Integrity that we converted to a houseboat a few years back.

Is Gwendoline still intact, at Ellesmere?

 

I know they "deconstructed" Ethel.

 

Also isn't Dorothy Pax still sort of surviving, in Sheffield?

[carlt]

And then there's Guidance, at Shoreham:

 

[Timleech]

I think, not only could I not afford to restore it, but Nicky would probably cut off my testicles.

 

It looks a bit less appealing up close, lots of work needed

 

http://www.esk-dredging.co.uk/Jumpsey.jpg

http://www.esk-dredging.co.uk/Jumpsey-b.gif

http://www.esk-dredging.co.uk/Jumpsey-a.gif

 

Links to pics on Esk Dredging site.

 

I'd be interested to learn something of its origins, though.

 

Tim

[fuzzyduck]

It looks a bit less appealing up close, lots of work needed

 

She's stunning, any way you look at her

[riverwolf]

She's stunning, any way you look at her

What is it about small tugs that is so addictive?If you would like to see more visit www.riverman.gotdns.com and click on the Tuggies section in particular have a look at the What are they now section(Sorry i don't know how to do the clicky link thing)While on the subject of old tugs does anyone know what became of "Hobo" real name "Glenlea" that sat in the Pit at Penton Hook for sometime?Wish i had bought her when i had the chance,hopefully she has found a good home and is looking better!Best wishes to all,Riverwolf.

[Timleech]

What is it about small tugs that is so addictive?If you would like to see more visit www.riverman.gotdns.com and click on the Tuggies section in particular have a look at the What are they now section(Sorry i don't know how to do the clicky link thing)

 

Some of the older ones are very shapely, certainly when compared with mere barges or canal boats.

Usually utterly impractical as pleasure boats, though - very little accommodation space relative to hull size, often deep draughted, big engines which can be very expensive to maintain etc etc.

 

I still fancy one, though. Maybe one day.

 

Tim

[NB Esk]

It looks a bit less appealing up close, lots of work needed

 

http://www.esk-dredging.co.uk/Jumpsey.jpg

http://www.esk-dredging.co.uk/Jumpsey-b.gif

http://www.esk-dredging.co.uk/Jumpsey-a.gif

 

Links to pics on Esk Dredging site.

 

I'd be interested to learn something of its origins, though.

 

Tim

 

What a small world. I bought the engine that started life in the grab that was lashed onboard the "Esk" dredger.

It was the earlier version of the one on the esk-dredging site. It had a wooden cabin.

The engine then saw service at the dock office, coupled to a standby genny, before passing to the person I bought it from...

[Lady Muck]

As a kid I used to hitch rides on the keels and pusher tugs and in college holidays, I worked, at Croda Hydrocarbons, at Kilnhurst, testing the contents of the tanks, before demolition.

 

Did you know croda hydrocarbons in Knottingley? Not far from John Harkers. When I was little, whenever Harkers launched a boat, my primary school would be taken to watch the launch from the opposite bank. We'd invariably get soaked through.

[Derek R.]

Did you know croda hydrocarbons in Knottingley? Not far from John Harkers. When I was little, whenever Harkers launched a boat, my primary school would be taken to watch the launch from the opposite bank. We'd invariably get soaked through.

 

Sounds like a fifties education program - sadism. Did the teachers stand back on higher ground? Mine would have.

[flatplane8]

Some interesting pictures and information here. Waddingtons have recently lent a barge, Service, to the Yorkshire Waterways museum, I think to be turned into a floating classroom. Very solid looking boat. There is a picture about halfway down here.

 

The Esk Dredging site has loads of interesting pictures, include one of the mystery keel with the old tug. She's called 'Michael' apparently (if thats not a contradiction).

 

Finally, if you like old tugs, here's an interesting restoration of one.

 

[carlt]

Did you know croda hydrocarbons in Knottingley?

I did visit the Knottingley site but my work was mainly involved in preparing the Swinton site for demolition. I was testing the contents of the various tanks and holders and passing the info onto the folk with the cutting torches.

 

 

 

Finally, if you like old tugs, here's an interesting restoration of one.

A great restoration blog, thank you!

[Derek R.]

With regard to hatches, I recently had a reply from a Rodney Clapson. I asked if I could paste his comments here, but have not yet received a reply, but do so anyway and ask if he reads this to accept my apologies for being an impatient bugger!

 

"Dear Sir, Your e-mail about the design of hatches on keels and sloops has done the rounds and finally

landed on my computer. I had 60 years working in and then running a shipyard at Barton on Humber

where sloops and keels were built (before me) and where we carried out repairs.

 

There were, as you say, two types of hatches. The rounded ones, called "carlin hatches" had wood,

then later, metal T-bar carlins bent to shape and covered with wood boards. These were very often,

but not always,used on sloops. I expect that they were stronger than flat hatches when sailing at sea,

though having said that I think that all Thames barges had flat hatches. When carlin hatches were

fitted it meant that the area of opened hatchway could be varied depending on the cargo and the weather.

 

The flat hatches, called "lighter hatches" were flat boards laid from the coaming to a strong wood beam

called a fore-and-after. Again, these hatches could be partly removed easily to open up that hatchway.

The for-and-afters (usually about 3 in number, but obviously depending on the length of the hold) sat in

turn on loose beams across the hatchway, and these were removed to give full access to the hold.

The lighter hatches got their name as they were always used on lighters (vessels with the same design

hull as sloops and keels, but without mast and sails, towed with a motor vessel - steam tug or packet)

 

There was no hard and fast rule about which hatch was used on sloops or keels. For example I have many

photographs of sloops (including new launches) where a sloop has lighter hatches and of keels which

have carlin hatches. Generally though, looking through my photographs there were many more sloops and

keels with carlin hatches than with lighter hatches. The only thing that you can definitely say is that

lighter hatches were always used on lighters.

 

Daybreak now has a steel top over the hatchway, but the shape of the headledges at the fore and aft

end of the hold show that she had carlin hatches originally. She was built as a keel for Hanleys of Doncaster

and was never rigged as anything other than a keel. I have been down to Daybreak often, sailing with

Tony and Sally, I've been upstream as far as Oxford and downstream as far as Faversham. It's good sailing

down there, without the fast-running tides that we get up here on the Humber, although my own boat

(a 25ft Dutch-built steel sloop - 1961 vintage) stays over in Holland on the Veersemeer so I have no

worry with tides there!

 

I find it very interesting finding many ex-Humber vessels on the Thames,converted into houseboats although

nowadays as you will know, there are many more Tjalks and Klippers on the Thames than Humber keels and sloops.

 

I hope this has answered your questions, if anything else crops up,

don't hesitate to get back to me."

 

Rodney Clapson