A new way of looking at the CC issue

[mayalld]

OK, so in many threads there is bitter dispute as to the fairness (or otherwise) of charging CCers more than those with a permanent mooring.

 

So, let me propose a new (and slightly radical) view of things....

 

The first thing is that we entirely abolish free towpath mooring, and replace it with a pay-and-display system, using pre-paid mooring tickets that must be displayed in the boat window (using a "scratch off the date" system). Every night that you moor up, you must display an appropriately dated ticket.

 

• Tickets would cost 1 pound each, and would be bought in advance from BW.
  
• Each time you buy a licence, you get a fixed number of inclusive mooring tickets (say 60).
  
• Tickets would be tradable, so those who don't use 60 can sell them at a discount to other boaters.
  
• There would be an option to upgrade from the standard tickets system to a season ticket, costing £150.
  
• Leisure business licences would include a season ticket.
  
• At certain locations (such as Llangollen), mooring would require two tickets for a single night (or a season ticket plus an extra ticket)
  
• There would be a £50 charge for any boater mooring overnight without a ticket in the window.
  

Thoughts?

[Bones]

OK, so in many threads there is bitter dispute as to the fairness (or otherwise) of charging CCers more than those with a permanent mooring.

 

So, let me propose a new (and slightly radical) view of things....

 

The first thing is that we entirely abolish free towpath mooring, and replace it with a pay-and-display system, using pre-paid mooring tickets that must be displayed in the boat window (using a "scratch off the date" system). Every night that you moor up, you must display an appropriately dated ticket.

 

• Tickets would cost 1 pound each, and would be bought in advance from BW.
  
• Each time you buy a licence, you get a fixed number of inclusive mooring tickets (say 60).
  
• Tickets would be tradable, so those who don't use 60 can sell them at a discount to other boaters.
  
• There would be an option to upgrade from the standard tickets system to a season ticket, costing £150.
  
• Leisure business licences would include a season ticket.
  
• At certain locations (such as Llangollen), mooring would require two tickets for a single night (or a season ticket plus an extra ticket)
  
• There would be a £50 charge for any boater mooring overnight without a ticket in the window.
  

Thoughts?

 

BOOOO HISSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS. Same as pay as you go, not a good system - fine for the ocasional boater, but not those of us who move our boats, nor for continuous cruisers.

Pre-order simply wouldn't happen, and an appropriately dated ticket isn't going to happen either. It sounds like an administrative nightmare that would lead to disaster and non implication.

[carlt]

And when you moor in the middle of nowhere?

 

And the over-time paid for all the enforcement officers who have to walk every tow path every night?

 

And those of us who regularly cruised all night?

Edited November 25, 2008 by carlt

[mayalld]

And when you moor in the middle of nowhere?

 

And the over-time paid for all the enforcement officers who have to walk every tow path every night?

 

And those of us who regularly cruised all night?

 

Those who cruise all night save a pound!

 

The overtime of the enforcement officers would be paid out of the £50 charges for those who imagine that nobody is ever going to check out here in the back of beyond.

 

They could even franchise enforcement out, and pay £25 per offender nabbed

[Bones]

Those who cruise all night save a pound!

 

The overtime of the enforcement officers would be paid out of the £50 charges for those who imagine that nobody is ever going to check out here in the back of beyond.

 

They could even franchise enforcement out, and pay £25 per offender nabbed

 

 

you are joking aren't you?

[mayalld]

you are joking aren't you?

 

Did you see a smiley?

 

No, I'm not joking. It is called thinking out of the box.

[Bones]

OK so you aren't joking (I thought I had better check - I am not good at working these things out!)

 

1. that would cost 365 extra onto the licence fee penalising both those with a mooring, and CCers

2. inclusive mooring tickets won't be very useful because you can't necessarily define the date you are going to moor

3. no-one will sell them at a discount, and no-one will buy more than are necessary because they will be impossible to get hold of anyway, and will be predated

4. the season ticket idea is a reasonable one, but 150pounds extra on a licence is what everyone will do and not pay for moorings

5. definition of popular areas will be difficult and make it doubly expensive to moor, and doubly cross making if there isn't a mooring where you want one

6. 50pound penalty would require someone to check the tickets all the time.

 

 

It isn't thinking out of the box at all, it is the same system that has been proposed but a different excuse to impose it.

Edited November 25, 2008 by Bones

[gaggle]

them that can afford it may like it , social cleansing of the canal system.

barman bring me two of what dave has had.

 

edit to say - off your box or out of the box.

edit again to say - just get bw to do what you pay for already , police the rules.

i dont understand how or why people get so upset about other peoples non compliance.

if i was to be so bothered by them the obvious answer would be "if i can beat them -join them".

Edited November 25, 2008 by gaggle

[blackrose]

OK, so in many threads there is bitter dispute as to the fairness (or otherwise) of charging CCers more than those with a permanent mooring.

 

So, let me propose a new (and slightly radical) view of things....

 

The first thing is that we entirely abolish free towpath mooring, and replace it with a pay-and-display system, using pre-paid mooring tickets that must be displayed in the boat window (using a "scratch off the date" system). Every night that you moor up, you must display an appropriately dated ticket.

 

• Tickets would cost 1 pound each, and would be bought in advance from BW.
  
• Each time you buy a licence, you get a fixed number of inclusive mooring tickets (say 60).
  
• Tickets would be tradable, so those who don't use 60 can sell them at a discount to other boaters.
  
• There would be an option to upgrade from the standard tickets system to a season ticket, costing £150.
  
• Leisure business licences would include a season ticket.
  
• At certain locations (such as Llangollen), mooring would require two tickets for a single night (or a season ticket plus an extra ticket)
  
• There would be a £50 charge for any boater mooring overnight without a ticket in the window.
  

Thoughts?

No thanks.

[Malarky]

Surely this would inspire the enforcement officers to be on the recieving end of a tazer!

[Chris Pink]

OK, so in many threads there is bitter dispute as to the fairness (or otherwise) of charging CCers more than those with a permanent mooring.

 

So, let me propose a new (and slightly radical) view of things....

 

The first thing is that we entirely abolish free towpath mooring, and replace it with a pay-and-display system, using pre-paid mooring tickets that must be displayed in the boat window (using a "scratch off the date" system). Every night that you moor up, you must display an appropriately dated ticket.

 

• Tickets would cost 1 pound each, and would be bought in advance from BW.
  
• Each time you buy a licence, you get a fixed number of inclusive mooring tickets (say 60).
  
• Tickets would be tradable, so those who don't use 60 can sell them at a discount to other boaters.
  
• There would be an option to upgrade from the standard tickets system to a season ticket, costing £150.
  
• Leisure business licences would include a season ticket.
  
• At certain locations (such as Llangollen), mooring would require two tickets for a single night (or a season ticket plus an extra ticket)
  
• There would be a £50 charge for any boater mooring overnight without a ticket in the window.
  

Thoughts?

 

Sorry Dave, this is more 'thinking in the very small box'.

 

The net result of this proposal, as with BW's proposed penalty charge for those with no mooring, is that the people who you would like to move more would have a justification for not moving.

 

If you really really think there is a mooring availability problem (which seems to permeate your thinking on this and other related topics) then please come and walk with me along the western K and A, said by many to be one of the worst places to find moorings, and see for yourself that today, 25th November 2008 no-one would have any problem mooring at any location they choose.

 

I would like to see a substantial increase in licence cost, say £150, for those who have a mooring on the grounds that they are occupying mooring space exclusively that the rest of us would like to have a go at once in a while.

[mayalld]

OK so you aren't joking (I thought I had better check - I am not good at working these things out!)

 

1. that would cost 365 extra onto the licence fee penalising both those with a mooring, and CCers

2. inclusive mooring tickets won't be very useful because you can't necessarily define the date you are going to moor

3. no-one will sell them at a discount, and no-one will buy more than are necessary because they will be impossible to get hold of anyway, and will be predated

4. the season ticket idea is a reasonable one, but 150pounds extra on a licence is what everyone will do and not pay for moorings

5. definition of popular areas will be difficult and make it doubly expensive to moor, and doubly cross making if there isn't a mooring where you want one

6. 50pound penalty would require someone to check the tickets all the time.

 

 

It isn't thinking out of the box at all, it is the same system that has been proposed but a different excuse to impose it.

Thank you

1. No, you only need a ticket when you are on a public mooring. If you are on your home mooring you don't need a ticket. You get 60 inclusive tickets anyway, so in theory you could pay £305 extra if you decided not to get a season ticket. If you expect to be away from your home mooring for more than 210 nights in the year, a season ticket will be cheaper.
   
2. Tickets won't be pre-dated. They would be a bit like a lottery ticket, with scratch-off panels that you use to show the date that you have validated them for. You set the date when you put it in the window.
   
3. They won't be pre-dated, and everybody will get an inclusive allowance of 60 tickets with their licence. If you cruise less than 60 days a year, you can sell off your tickets at whatever price people will pay.
   
4. Why will everybody opt for £150 on the licence? If you are out for less than 210 nights a year, tickets will prove cheaper.
   
5. Popular spots is defined as those spots where BW currently charge an overnight mooring fee at present.
   
6. Yes, enforcement will be required, and will be paid for from the excess charges.
   

Whilst it achieves the same net cash flow to BW, it is thinking out of the box, because it tries to refine the process, and link payment to the intensity of use of ancillary facilities.

[Bones]

[*]Yes, enforcement will be required, and will be paid for from the excess charges.

Whilst it achieves the same net cash flow to BW, it is thinking out of the box, because it tries to refine the process, and link payment to the intensity of use of ancillary facilities.

 

and that is the crux of it. They don't reinforce what they already have, so what makes you think they will reinforce this?

 

I had a mooring last year, and I spent about 3weeks in total (and probably not that long) on it. If I had to have pre-paid things, i.e. something else to think about, I wouldn't bother moving. I doubt I would be alone.

 

I don't think this is looking at the CC issue at all, because there isn't a CC issue.

 

There is an issue with people mooring for longer periods than they are meant to, and the lack of policing of the policies already in place, if the ticket system is designed to solve that then perhaps increasing hte number of moorings would be a simpler way and would invovle more revenue

Edited November 25, 2008 by Bones

[mayalld]

Sorry Dave, this is more 'thinking in the very small box'.

 

The net result of this proposal, as with BW's proposed penalty charge for those with no mooring, is that the people who you would like to move more would have a justification for not moving.

 

If you really really think there is a mooring availability problem (which seems to permeate your thinking on this and other related topics) then please come and walk with me along the western K and A, said by many to be one of the worst places to find moorings, and see for yourself that today, 25th November 2008 no-one would have any problem mooring at any location they choose.

 

I would like to see a substantial increase in licence cost, say £150, for those who have a mooring on the grounds that they are occupying mooring space exclusively that the rest of us would like to have a go at once in a while.

 

If you want that mooring space, you will have to take it up with the owner of the land.

 

And I don't accept that this mooring facility charge would give any justification to those who don't want to move. Does buying a £1 pay and display ticket from the council entitle me to permanently settle in their car park, install a vegetable garden and a chicken run?

[Machpoint005]

I like the idea - it would solve a lot of problems.

My main concern would be that the ticketing system may confer a 'right to moor' which doesn't actually exist in law.

My secondary concern would be that you would still have to pay to moor at places where you can't really get into the side properly (narrow, shallow northern canals especially). You would then be paying for something you weren't getting.

 

All credit to Dave for thinking out of the box, though. The first rule of 'brainstorming' is that you don't evaluate until all the ideas are in, otherwise people don't come up with anything original!

[Sir Nibble]

Complete non starter, barking mad.

[Amicus]

Same old same old.

"Please sir, please sir he should pay more, please sir, make him pay more, sir?"

Same old

[grahoom]

And I don't accept that this mooring facility charge would give any justification to those who don't want to move. Does buying a £1 pay and display ticket from the council entitle me to permanently settle in their car park, install a vegetable garden and a chicken run?

 

But CCers don't have a vegetable garden or chicken run as they are making a progressive journey around the system.....

[mayalld]

Complete non starter, barking mad.

 

Indeed it may well be barking mad.

 

Doesn't stop it exploring the question of just what it is that people are paying for rather better than rehearsing the same arguments again and again.

[Bones]

But CCers don't have a vegetable garden or chicken run as they are making a progressive journey around the system.....

 

 

exactly!

[Sir Nibble]

Indeed it may well be barking mad.

 

Doesn't stop it exploring the question of just what it is that people are paying for rather better than rehearsing the same arguments again and again.

There is no argument. Continuous cruising is perfectly well defined in the guidelines, anything else is bullshit. Continuous moorers pretend there is an area of reasonable doubt for them to hide in, but there is not. there is only a contrived area of wilful misunderstanding. Obey the rules or sod off. We don't need new systems we need the existing ones enforced.

[Bones]

There is no argument. Continuous cruising is perfectly well defined in the guidelines, anything else is bullshit. Continuous moorers pretend there is an area of reasonable doubt for them to hide in, but there is not. there is only a contrived area of wilful misunderstanding. Obey the rules or sod off. We don't need new systems we need the existing ones enforced.

 

I suppose that qualifies as thinking out of the box as well! The problem is, there is too much thinking out of the box, and not enough reinforcement of a perfectly serviceable box...

[Denis R]

There is no argument. Continuous cruising is perfectly well defined in the guidelines, anything else is bullshit. Continuous moorers pretend there is an area of reasonable doubt for them to hide in, but there is not. there is only a contrived area of wilful misunderstanding. Obey the rules or sod off. We don't need new systems we need the existing ones enforced.

I agree with this wholeheartedly, but all credit to Dave for setting up the coconut for everybody else to knock over.

Dave, I think we're trying to treat the symptoms rather than the root cause, which in my mind S'Nib has hilighted above.

Denis

[mayalld]

Same old same old.

"Please sir, please sir he should pay more, please sir, make him pay more, sir?"

Same old

 

Well, curiously, under this system, I would pay more, and I proposed it.

[FadeToScarlet]

So with my scanner, Adobe Photoshop and inkjet printer, I buy one ticket, copy it 364 times, and have free mooring for the year?

 

How- without making the system prohibitively expensive- would you ensure that the ticket displayed in a window fogged with condensation, or in a tatty polydocket outside the boat, or whatever, is genuine?