Rudders

[MtB]

Slightly different question this time....

 

As you are no doubt all aware by now :-) we are out and about looking for another boat. We viewed a Steve Hudson boat the other day. The vendor kindly took us out for a test run and we were astonished at how heavy the boat was to steer. Serious effort needed to push the tiller to one side to get the boat around a bend on the cut. So much so that we actually misjudged a bend so badly that we ran into the bank. Most embarrassing!

 

The chap selling it reckons steering is heavy on the boat because the boat itself is heavy, and heavy boats handle like that. I'm more inclined to think the reason lies in the design of the rudder, and perhaps quite easily changed. I think the ratio of rudder area forward of the pivot line to rudder area aft of the pivot line is likely to be high on this particular boat, leading to a lot of tiller effort needed to steer. Agreed?

 

I think lengthening/extending the leading edge of the rudder will reduce the effort needed to push the tiller arm and steer the boat, provided there is space to do this without fouling the propeller. Is this feasible, or is altering the rudder design on a given boat a bad idea fraught by unintended consequences? Alternatively removing some of the trailing edge of the rudder will have a same effect, but resulting in more tiller arm deflection needed for a given amount of steering effect.

 

Any comments, anyone?

 

Cheers, Mike

[Proper Job]

Slightly different question this time....

 

As you are no doubt all aware by now :-) we are out and about looking for another boat. We viewed a Steve Hudson boat the other day. The vendor kindly took us out for a test run and we were astonished at how heavy the boat was to steer. Serious effort needed to push the tiller to one side to get the boat around a bend on the cut. So much so that we actually misjudged a bend so badly that we ran into the bank. Most embarrassing!

 

The chap selling it reckons steering is heavy on the boat because the boat itself is heavy, and heavy boats handle like that. I'm more inclined to think the reason lies in the design of the rudder, and perhaps quite easily changed. I think the ratio of rudder area forward of the pivot line to rudder area aft of the pivot line is likely to be high on this particular boat, leading to a lot of tiller effort needed to steer. Agreed?

 

I think lengthening/extending the leading edge of the rudder will reduce the effort needed to push the tiller arm and steer the boat, provided there is space to do this without fouling the propeller. Is this feasible, or is altering the rudder design on a given boat a bad idea fraught by unintended consequences? Alternatively removing some of the trailing edge of the rudder will have a same effect, but resulting in more tiller arm deflection needed for a given amount of steering effect.

 

Any comments, anyone?

 

Cheers, Mike

My Hudson is very heavy on the steering. I put it down to the fact that the rudder plate seem's to have been made from a spare bit of the 15mm base plate

 

At least it won't bend if its reversed on to an underwater obstruction

 

I find that its hard(er) to push, but once in position does not take any more effort than previous boats to hold there. That being the case, the balance is OK. It's just a big heavy rudder.

[NB Alnwick]

My Hudson is very heavy on the steering. I put it down to the fact that the rudder plate seem's to have been made from a spare bit of the 15mm base plate

 

At least it won't bend if its reversed on to an underwater obstruction

 

I find that its hard(er) to push, but once in position does not take any more effort than previous boats to hold there. That being the case, the balance is OK. It's just a big heavy rudder.

 

There are several factors that contribute to heavy steering but the heavier the boat (and, by extension the deeper the hull and rudder is in the water), the harder it will be to steer with a tiller when under way. This is especially true on canals where there is insufficient depth of water under the hull. The only remedy is to slow down.

 

'Alnwick' is relatively heavy and my procedure for negotiating the sharpest bends on the southern section of the Oxford Canal involves slowing right down before the bend so that I can get the tiller across (without the need to exert excessive force) and then increasing the engine revolutions gradually to push the boat round - it usually works but not always

[rover220]

rudders can be modified in this way and it does make quite abit of difference. is it easy to remove?? may be worth pulling it out and seeing if its a feasible option?

[NB Alnwick]

rudders can be modified in this way and it does make quite abit of difference. is it easy to remove?? may be worth pulling it out and seeing if its a feasible option?

 

The designer of a well thought through boat will have matched the rudder size and shape to the hull to provide optimum handling characteristics so any changes to the rudder shape may well produce a boat that handles like the proverbial bathtub.

 

Hudson boats are noted for being well designed and built so my advice would be to leave it as built.

 

If the tiller puts up a too much resistance when you swing it over, then the boat is probably going too fast for the intended manoeuvre. As I said earlier deeper draughted boats do need to take bends more steadily.

[Sir Nibble]

Or you might have a bent stock!

[bottle]

Or the bearing(s) need maintenance, greasing.

[Keeping Up]

Or a bent skeg, so that it is not in line with the top bearing (happened to our boat as it was being launched from new)

 

 

Edited for typo

Edited October 29, 2008 by Keeping Up

[NB Alnwick]

Or the bearing(s) need maintenance, greasing.

 

All of this is easy to check - if the rudder is easy to swing when the boat is not moving the perceived problem cannot be due to a lack of lubrication or misalignment.

[RobinJ]

I think lengthening/extending the leading edge of the rudder will reduce the effort needed to push the tiller arm and steer the boat, provided there is space to do this without fouling the propeller. Is this feasible, or is altering the rudder design on a given boat a bad idea fraught by unintended consequences? Alternatively removing some of the trailing edge of the rudder will have a same effect, but resulting in more tiller arm deflection needed for a given amount of steering effect.

I took the opportunity of adding 4" to the leading edge when I replaced the rudder bearing. I was panicking as I thought this was too much, but it left enough room to remove the prop. and when back in the water I found it was very well balanced and only 'pulls' at high revs.

It is possible that the top bearing could contribute to stiffness, but they usually go loose? My guess is the heaviness is due to the design and possibly rake?

You will probably need to look carefully out of the water to decide!

[John Orentas]

We tend to imagine that boats are a bit like cars, all we need to do is keep everything 'standard' as supplied and all will be OK, in fact even the best of the boat builders spend very little time or effort developing or refining their products and often they will will make quite major changes without considering long term effects.. The dimensions and geometry of the rudder is very often neglected, probably been like that since the builder drew up a set of designs 30 odd years ago..

 

If you suspect your steering gear could do with some refinement, do it at a time when the boat is out of the water anyway.. Heavy steering is often the result of the rudder / balance blade ratio being incorrect, some rudders have little or no balance blade at all, the idea is that the force that the rudder blade exerts back to the tiller is to some extent counteracted by the balance blade (that bit towards the propeller) pushing the other way.. In general the balance blade should be 20% to 30% the length of the main part, not a difficult job for a fabricator to add or subtract a few inches..

 

There is however a secondary, equally important function for the balance blade, it is a great aide in directing the wash of the propeller, without it only half of the prop wash will be controlled.. Stand behind the boat and observe that on full tiller both sides of the propeller should be totally obscured, only then will 'all' the wash be directed by the rudder.

 

I modified my own boat in this way many years ago, the result was that the handling was transformed.. Made some other mods. to but that's for another time.

[Proper Job]

Picking up on Grahams point with Alnwick

 

Ocelot is also a very heavy Hudson boat. She does handle very differently to many nb's. This is due to wieght and draft. Yes, heavy on the tiller is one aspect. But you do tend to have to think ahead more than most boats. Lining up ready to go round a bend becomes second nature after a while. You even start turning in to the bend before you get there.

 

Once you get used to them. Heavy/deep boats are a dream to steer. Generally, once you get them in the right direction they stay there - irrespective of external influences

[Timleech]

My early Narrow Boat steering was mostly on a trip boat, converted Josher drawing over 3 feet with no 'balance' on the rudder, on a winding & not terribly deep stretch of canal. It could be hard work if you fought it, but get everything right & the boat would almost steer itself.

With that background, I detest steering some modern boats with too much rudder balance, they give no feel or feedback as to what the boat is doing, it's a bit like waggling a spoon in a bowl of porridge.

I had to steer a customer's Hudson boat (along the same familiar stretch of canal from 40 years ago) last year, it wasn't perhaps as satisfying as the Josher might have been but certainly a huge improvement over the majority the of modern boats which I've handled.

 

Tim

[Machpoint005]

Stupid question - how long is the tiller arm? How hard you have to push depends on the leverage exerted (as well as how heavy the rudder is). Would a longer arm be feasible?

[koukouvagia]

Stupid question - how long is the tiller arm? How hard you have to push depends on the leverage exerted (as well as how heavy the rudder is). Would a longer arm be feasible?

 

You should never have a tiller which will extend beyond the profile of the boat otherwise you run the risk of it fouling on, for example, locksides.

[Timleech]

You should never have a tiller which will extend beyond the profile of the boat otherwise you run the risk of it fouling on, for example, locksides.

 

Steering most butties/horse boats would be very hard work if they followed that rule :lol:

 

Tim

[koukouvagia]

Steering most butties/horse boats would be very hard work if they followed that rule :lol:

 

Tim

 

Agreed. But having seen a butty tiller snap in half at a bridgehole (not mine, I hasten to add!!) I’m extra careful.

One of the problems of some modern boats with a trad rear cabin and counter is that the tiller is at shoulder height. This makes it very tiring to use, especially if the rudder is heavy. My tiller, on an ex-working boat, is at waist height and I can steer comfortably by leaning against it from side to side. On a straightish pound I can steer with the tiller in the small of my back.

Edited October 29, 2008 by koukouvagia

[Timleech]

Agreed. But having seen a butty tiller snap in half at a bridgehole (not mine, I hasten to add!!) I’m extra careful.

One of the problems of some modern boats with a trad rear cabin and counter is that the tiller is at shoulder height. This makes it very tiring to use, especially if the rudder is heavy. My tiller, on an ex-working boat, is at waist height and I can steer comfortably by leaning against it from side to side. On a straightish pound I can steer with the tiller in the small of my back.

 

 

I've had to repair or replace a fair number of butty tillers in the past which have been broken that way

 

If you measure the tillers on most ex-working motor boats, I think you'll find they are long enough to reach a lock wall if held hard over, but who would hold them hard over in a lock?

 

As you say, care is needed and the tiller should be removed or tiller strings used in locks.

 

Tim

[johnthebridge]

Agreed. But having seen a butty tiller snap in half at a bridgehole (not mine, I hasten to add!!) I’m extra careful.

One of the problems of some modern boats with a trad rear cabin and counter is that the tiller is at shoulder height. This makes it very tiring to use, especially if the rudder is heavy. My tiller, on an ex-working boat, is at waist height and I can steer comfortably by leaning against it from side to side. On a straightish pound I can steer with the tiller in the small of my back.

Irrespective of it hanging over in locks, it should be comfortable enough to be able to stand on the footboard, with the cabin doors shut, (range roaring) and for it to "fall to hand". Nothing else will do!

[NB Esk]

I'd have thought that the angle of the rudder stock (rake) would influence the *weight* of the rudder. Too great and the self centering would try to fight the steerer.

 

I'd agree that the balance blade should blot out the prop. Look at some old workboat rudders, some balance blades are rounded & appear to closely follow the profile of the prop...

[Timleech]

Irrespective of it hanging over in locks, it should be comfortable enough to be able to stand on the footboard, with the cabin doors shut, (range roaring) and for it to "fall to hand". Nothing else will do!

 

Absolutely.

 

Tim

[dave moore]

Hi all

Many other Hudson owners have reported heavy steering. Maybe the size of the "flight plate" in front of the rudder stock, needs increasing..I recall a similar problem with the Black Country Narrow Boat tugs, After a day on the footboard, I'd had enough! Certainly the tiller should fall readily to hand when on the footboard..ours, on a modern tug style boat will clear narrow locks hard over, but that's down to the length of the counter to stern bulkhead (3' 4'' on Resolute)

Cheers

Dave

[down the north]

Furthering comments on 'heavy steering' 20 % to 30% counterbalance might just be too much, I'd never done more that 15%. Sufficient is such that the tiller will straighten from a standing start with the tiller over, if the tiller stays over, or moves out of centre without touching it, then theres too much, and you'd never be able to make a brew single handed on the shroppie without going 'up the bank'

Early FM & C boats had more vertical rudders, so were more awkward in rounding turns, but GU with their raked back rudders flew round bends,, re tiller length, most would overhang the lockside on proper boats, but with rake back on the rudder stock, they self centre, if not then a set of tiller strings most useful, couldnt have done without them on Anne, specially holding back for a butty below a lock !!

martin

[bargeeboy]

There is nothing wrong with the rudder It is as built by Steve Hudson

 

Boat was docked in Dec and no problem.

 

I know I am the Agent seeling the boat.

 

I was going to but it for myself but Stafford will be home next week.

 

It feels and steers like a proper loaded boat as you would expect from a quality builder

 

And the mis-judged corner was the Priory turn at Alvecote and most 1st times do this regardless of the boat due to the piling being reistated inside the origiinal coping and hence it has narrowed the canal as well as lost the shape of the turn.

 

The bowthruster was helpful though!

 

PS its still available

[MtB]

There is nothing wrong with the rudder It is as built by Steve Hudson

 

Boat was docked in Dec and no problem.

 

I know I am the Agent seeling the boat.

 

I was going to but it for myself but Stafford will be home next week.

 

It feels and steers like a proper loaded boat as you would expect from a quality builder

 

And the mis-judged corner was the Priory turn at Alvecote and most 1st times do this regardless of the boat due to the piling being reistated inside the origiinal coping and hence it has narrowed the canal as well as lost the shape of the turn.

 

The bowthruster was helpful though!

 

PS its still available

 

 

Hi bargeeboy,

 

Yes we very much liked the boat. I wasn't meaning to imply there was anything wrong with it, just asking because I have virtually no experience of steering 'proper boats'! Anyway we would probably struggle to raise that much money and there is another boat we found the same weekend that we are also considering. Looks like boats are like buses - wait for ages then two come along at once.....

 

Changing the subject, it seems we have a mutual acquaintance. Chap called Cully. We know him from the late seventies when we both lived on boats in Eton. Last spoke to him a couple of years ago but now I hear he's moved back onto the cut and we only have his land-line phone number which is disconnected. Could you put us in touch with him perhaps? Be much appreciated if you could.

 

Or is anyone else here in touch with Michael and Shirley Cull?

 

Cheers, Mike