Current Red diesel prices around you ?

[Canal Shop Man]

Is vat chargeable on the duty?

Yes!

 

Quote from HMRC website:

 

Propulsion calculation (ie 60 per cent)

 

60 litres @ 0.70ppl = £42

60 litres @ 0.4066 = £24.40 (additional duty)

VAT @ 5% = £3.32

 

Propulsion Total = £69.72

 

If you work it out, it adds the 5% to the additional duty as well

Edited October 21, 2008 by Canal Shop Man

[cotswoldsman]

Yes. In this country we get taxed on a tax!!!!

 

Chris

 

Chris in this case the 40.66 ppl allready includes the VAT

[Canal Shop Man]

Chris in this case the 40.66 ppl allready includes the VAT

Oh no it doesn't - see may last post (edited while you were posting)

[cotswoldsman]

Yes!

 

Can I please suggest you read the HMCR document again as you seem to be having difficulty understanding it or maybe even phone the HMCR help line

[chris w]

Chris in this case the 40.66 ppl allready includes the VAT

Looking at the HMRC leaflet, they add 5% VAT afterwards in their example so the duty doesn't seem to have the VAT included.

 

Chris

[cotswoldsman]

Yes!

 

Quote from HMRC website:

 

Propulsion calculation (ie 60 per cent)

 

60 litres @ 0.70ppl = £42

60 litres @ 0.4066 = £24.40 (additional duty)

VAT @ 5% = £3.32

 

Propulsion Total = £69.72

 

If you work it out, it adds the 5% to the additional duty as well

 

Sorry but think we are both wrong and now it is getting confusing

 

The figure of 0.70 ppl that HMCR have used is before VAT so this assumes that your pump price is before VAT where as in this case I expect your pump price would be 73.5 ppl being the 0.70 p plus the 5% VAT 3.5 p. So the total for 60 litres on the pump would be £44.10

 

Me thinks "what am I missing here?"

 

 

 

 

APOLOGY TO CANAL SHOP MAN

 

Have worn out my calculator and I am completly wrong on the VAT issue and you are correct sorry but can't delete the posts have put up where I am having a go at you but please accept my full apology.

[Dusty]

Hi All,

 

It is rare I add a comment to anything just in case it bites me on the bum.

BUT - I have just produced a Diesel Split Charge Calculator so I am able to supply diesel to anyone who declares any percentage of use. This has been given the thumbs up by HMRC. (I feel very smug about that).

 

My diesel price today is 74ppl

 

Come 1st Nov you will have to declare and sign a note to say how much propulsion to domestic you have.

To this end the user could claim to be 80% domestic to 20% propulsion. This (using my niffty calculator) would make the price per litre 81p for that customer. At 92% to 8% it would be 76ppl

 

Be very aware that you need to know how and why you are claiming you declaration of usage and need to be able to back it up if asked.

You MUST also make a second declaration if you decide to move a greater distance (within reason).

I am prepared to make the effort to make this work for my customers, it is long winded and not easy. My customers will be expected to work out their usage and be able to varifiy it, otherwise we could all loose out. It is not that difficult but .....

 

Oh and my Taybright is £7.75 delivered to your boat with a smile and bit of jolly banter

 

Off on a Cropredy run this weekend so won't respond to posts - sorry - back on Monday night

 

Dusty

[alan_fincher]

Dusty,

 

Have you had clear communication from the Revenue about the rate of VAT to charge on the propulsion component.

 

I believe the answer is 5%, but our local marina outley says the Revenue have written to them within the last fortnight saying it should be 17.5%

 

Incidentally your current 74ppl price exactly matches our local boats, Bletchley & Argus.

 

Alan

[cotswoldsman]

I believe the answer is 5%, but our local marina outley says the Revenue have written to them within the last fortnight saying it should be 17.5%

 

Alan

 

Alan have you managed to get sight of the letter from HMCR to the marina? From what I can gather from speaking to other marinas no one else has received this letter and infact non of them have received anything from HMRC, and I think this is what might be causing a lot of the confusion.

[alan_fincher]

Alan have you managed to get sight of the letter from HMCR to the marina? From what I can gather from speaking to other marinas no one else has received this letter and infact non of them have received anything from HMRC, and I think this is what might be causing a lot of the confusion.

No,

 

I went up there, but I need it to be the "right" person to have a chance.

 

They weren't there.

 

I will keep trying.

[nbfiresprite]

This is b@@@@@ks VAT is only at one rate for both propulsion and non and duty of 40.66 ppl is charged on propulsion one of the main reasons that HMCR have opted with this scheme was so that marinas would not have to have 2 pumps and tanks.

 

this link http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/ria/ria-annexboats.pdf give full explanation on how the new system was arrived at

point 9 is as follows

 

The supply infrastructure supports use of red diesel as most suppliers of fuel to the boat industry provide only rebated red diesel; fuel sites are typically located in harbours, marinas, on floating barges and on towpaths. Supplying a second fuel stream would involve substantial cost for suppliers (new pumps and tanks are estimated at £20,000);

 

Again seems a case of people in this case it would appear Trading Standards not understandin the new system and the reasons for it.

 

You forget one thing. HMRC are experts in taking money off us and shove rubber gloved hands up peoples backsides.

 

Trading Standards enforce trading law, In this case 'The Measurement equipment(Liquid Fuel & Lubricants) Regulations 1988,1995,1999

 

A case of one department not checking with the other.

 

Firesprite

[cotswoldsman]

I will keep trying.

you are right it is all very trying.

[alan_fincher]

Alan have you managed to get sight of the letter from HMCR to the marina? From what I can gather from speaking to other marinas no one else has received this letter and infact non of them have received anything from HMRC, and I think this is what might be causing a lot of the confusion.

OK, I have a short while ago seen the document at the marina referring to 17.5%, rather than 5% VAT for propulsion.

 

It is basically the same as the one issued about arrangements from Nov 1st, and has similar sample calculations about what the retailer must do to work out duty and VAT, based on the boaters declaration.

 

The big difference is that the sample calculation shows 17.5% VAT on propulsion, rather than 5%.

 

The marina is adamant it has only recently been received.

 

Based on information I sent them from the Revenue web-site, they now accept that the correct number is 5%.

 

Their only explanation is that the Revenue have changed their minds.

 

I accept this, because I'm confident I have also previously seen the 17.5% figure on their documents. Blowed if I can find it now, though!.

 

Alan

[chris w]

Well done Alan. You've saved those of us that use Cow Roast some money or as a minmum a heated debate. Much appreciated. I know exactly what you mean by the "right person" BTW. Couldn't agree more.

 

Chris

[stuart]

Does anyone know what marinas will advertise the price at the pumps as? The propulsion price or non-propulsion? Is there a standard?

[bottle]

Does anyone know what marinas will advertise the price at the pumps as? No

 

The propulsion price maybe

 

or non-propulsion? Perhaps

 

Is there a standard? Doubt it.

 

Hi Stuart

 

Not being flippant but have not found any info yet, perhaps our marina members (those on the selling side) know.

[magnetman]

I would have thought it'd be totally pointless to advertise the "non-propulsion" price because by definition boats which have arrived at the pump will have got there using their engine* and therefore the primary consideration will be how much the fuel will cost to continue said engine running. Surely the cost of fuel is initially based on the idea of propelling the vessel followed by an investigation concerning how much of the fuel taken on board (uploaded?) is then going to be used for heating, electricity generation and the production of hot air.

 

*assuming there won't be a significant increase in quanting, punting, shafting, rowing, bow hauling and possibly sailing of canal boats. Or petrol/electric propulsion systems.

[Justme]

Yeh but merchanting woudl always use the number that looks the best to the customer.

 

So for selling a low price, for discounts or free contents the higher number.

 

Like you see on shampoo bottles.

 

150ml bottle with 50ml extra free will say 50ml extra free & not 33% extra free but a 50ml bottle with 25ml free will say 50% extra free not 25ml extra free.

 

I would use the lowest price or poss even the no duty price with the two duty rates on a sign. They could easily do both prices on one sign too.

 

Justme

[alan_fincher]

The marina I referred to says they will display two prices at the pump, the propulsion, and the non propulsion prices, fully built up with duty and VAT.

 

Based on your declaration, you will pay for a calculated number of litres at one price, and the remainder at the other.

 

Provided they can handle the arithmetic now, it sounds quite straightforward.

 

This is just what they are doing - others may take a different course.

[Dusty]

Dusty,

 

Have you had clear communication from the Revenue about the rate of VAT to charge on the propulsion component.

 

I believe the answer is 5%, but our local marina outley says the Revenue have written to them within the last fortnight saying it should be 17.5%

 

Incidentally your current 74ppl price exactly matches our local boats, Bletchley & Argus.

 

Alan

 

Hi Alan,

Yes I got my instructions as amended about two and a half weeks ago. Most instructions are sent with our RDCO returns forms. As I have been in contact with HMRC so I know. The 17.5% has been dropped and 5% on both rates apply. This makes it a bit cheaper and a lot easier to work out.

To be frank, one has to look in all corners to find the info we need but also be aware that not knowing is no excuse in the eyes of the law. So I have kept in contact with RDCO and HMRC.

All sellers of diesel have to be RDCO approved and we have numbers to call in the event of a query. If a seller is worried - call one of the numbers and get an answer, making assumptions is not safe and things do change. The last thing I want is to be thumped with a great big tax bill next November because I assumed wrong.

74ppl is my price today and am getting another fill in the morning so it could be the same, less or more. We all buy from simmilar suppliers and the price can vary but only by a penny or two. It all depends on when you buy and how long it is till your re-fill. Some are still at 81ppl but tomorrow could be 72ppl simply because they filled up later than me. I fill up once a week so am one of the first to show a price rise or drop.

Dusty

[Nickhlx]

I got a quote from my central heating oil supplier yesterday for red diesel and they quoted me 50p /litre (!) for 500 litres

( min quantity) delivered, and that it may go down (!) in the next few days....

 

It seems that people able to order larger quantities would get it for a few pence less than that.... maybe 45 p / litre ?

 

Nick

[Dusty]

The marina I referred to says they will display two prices at the pump, the propulsion, and the non propulsion prices, fully built up with duty and VAT.

 

Based on your declaration, you will pay for a calculated number of litres at one price, and the remainder at the other.

 

Provided they can handle the arithmetic now, it sounds quite straightforward.

 

This is just what they are doing - others may take a different course.

 

The marina may show a price per litre as either a split i.e. two figures or follow the guideline of one price based on 60% propulsion and 40% domestic which is the standard to be adopted unless one is going to declare different usage. Many marina won't be fussed and stick to the 60-40 rule. They like me have the choice to sell or not to sell.

 

Come November Dusty will display prices based on declaration.

I will print a sheet showing from 100% domestic all the way down to 5% domestic each 5% step will dictate a new price per litre. I KNOW YOU ALL THINK THIS IS DAFT - but it is fair to do it this way, and the only way you will get me delivering diesel in the dark on a rainy cold winters day.

The debate is HOW DO YOU QUALIFY YOUR DECLARATION

 

Dusty

Be good and if you can't be good have fun being bad

 

 

I got a quote from my central heating oil supplier yesterday for red diesel and they quoted me 50p /litre (!) for 500 litres

( min quantity) delivered, and that it may go down (!) in the next few days....

 

It seems that people able to order larger quantities would get it for a few pence less than that.... maybe 45 p / litre ?

 

Nick

 

Yes Nick,

 

you are correct BUT come November it is illegal to put diesel into a boat without the new tax applied even if declared at 100% domestic a declaration has to be made to the seller who ever they are. Your heating supplier will find out soon enough that he has new rules to follow.

It is early days for this tax and it has yet to come into effect. I am sure many suppliers and customers will make mistakes to start with. But soon enough they will get found out and it will all settle down.

Only those who break the system make false claims or cheat will make it all fall appart and then HMRC will simply remove the red diesel. End of story - gone - finnished. .

Dusty.

[cotswoldsman]

59 ppl at coal yard just outside Market Drayton and £7.50 for excel coal think taybrite was £7.95

[Hyperion 53]

Our diesel at Norbury is currently 59.9ppl.

 

David

[wotsnext]

Our diesel at Norbury is currently 59.9ppl.

 

David

My last fillup at festival park was 86p.