What can a surveyor do

[MtB]

Just seen another boat we like, but it's 15 years old and we made our offer on it 'subject to survey'.

 

Now we're wondering what a surveyor might see that we woundn't be able to spot for ourselves. Never had a survey done on any other boat we've ever bought but then there have only ever been three! However I'm reasonably confident I can spot internal potential engineering/fit-out problems so I think the only area a survey is of value to us is in giving an opinion on the state of the hull. Is there anything I'm missing?

 

The only thing about the hull I'd want a surveyor to assess (I think) is the degree of corrosion and measure the thickness of the plating. I'm wondering whether I can buy whatever tool surveyors use to measure hull thickness and just assess the hull myself.

 

It's not a case of being a tight-wad and trying to save the money a surveyor costs, more a 'control' thing. I always want to do things myself when I can, for my own understanding and satisfaction. Nor do I want or need someone to sue if I get it wrong!

 

This is a well-built and well-maintained but somewhat tired 15 year old boat. Who here would get a professional survey done, who would get it lifted and inspect it themselves, and who would not bother with any of that? All opinions most welcome.

 

Cheers, Mike

Edited September 28, 2008 by mike bryant

[bag 'o' bones]

Totally agree with you. Other than the actaul fit out components a boats is little more than steel box and like you said to measure corrosion you need one of those thickness probe thingies which I imagine you could probally hire.

[Guest TerryL]

What you are buying from a surveyor is impartial and indepth knowledge and experience, you as a novice surveyor are very likely to miss or overlook faults with your rose tinted glasses! Unless you are very experienced with boats and can spot a "goodun" you could be taking an expensive gamble. Best to do an initial sifting check yourself and if all looks good confirm it with a professional opinion, or do you feel lucky....?

[Gary Peacock]

If I was selling a used boat I would prefer not to have a surveyor involved, however if I was buying a used boat I would prefer to have a surveyor involved.

[NB Esk]

I guess the easy answer is, if you're confident you can sort out any problems the boat throws up, go for it.

 

Otherwise, have it surveyed...

[David Schweizer]

From my last experience of a Surveyor, I could have done everything he did except the ultrasonis thickness test, and that is only because I do not have the testing device.

 

Quite frankly most of what he did was common sense, half the report is filled with factuial information supplied by myself, and at least I could have measured the distance of the exhaust outlet from the water line correctly - he qouted it as 100mm when it is actually 300mm!!!

 

As for being unbiased and independant, I found the opposite to be true, he had a definite bias against certain features, despite the fact that they are common place on many boats, including some that are made today by a respectable builder. He also made it clear that he did not approve of hulls being blacked and made a very strong recommendation in the report for grit blasting the hull and covering with epoxy coating. He even gave me the name of a boatyard on the Thames who would do it for me (t a very high cost)

 

Unbiased? Independent? I do not think so. Money for old rope.

Edited September 28, 2008 by David Schweizer

[carlt]

Unbiased? Independent? I do not think so. Money for old rope.

i agree but, unfortunately, their report is, very often, a good leverage in the price negotiations.

[David Schweizer]

i agree but, unfortunately, their report is, very often, a good leverage in the price negotiations.

 

Precisely, and that is why they deliberately highlight faults which are either inconsequential or normal for a boat of that age.

 

If and when I decide to sell my boat, it will be priced correctly and anyone trying to beat the price down unreasonaably will be asked to go away.

Edited September 28, 2008 by David Schweizer

[smileypete]

Now we're wondering what a surveyor might see that we woundn't be able to spot for ourselves.

 

Depends on relevant experience.

 

Ideally someone who knows the typical problems for a boat of that age, type and origin.

 

A boatyard repairer or longtime owner of a similar boat could also be a good source of info.

 

cheers,

Pete.

[bag 'o' bones]

Precisely, and that is why they deliberately highlight faults which are either inconsequential or normal for a boat of that age.

 

If and when I decide to sell my boat, it will be priced correctly and anyone trying to beat the price down unreasonaably will be asked to go away.

 

One thing i've noticed about boats is they tend to be sold in a similar style to a house. Most of the time vendors seem to concentrate on the pretty aspects - which lets face it a pretty obvious to a potential customers - and almost completely ignore the more important information such as the condition of the structure and equipment. I've sold a fair few second hand cars in my time and have always got the asking price because I price them realistically and spell out in the advert WHY the car is worth the asking price. It doesn't matter what your selling if you do your homework and take you time writing a really good honest advert you will get very few tire kickers.... or should I say rudder waggers?

[LEO]

Hi,

 

Interesting post, I would just ask for a hull ultra sound scan to check the metal thickness and pay accordingly. Have some spare cash to cover the problems which come to light when you use the boat though as these are points that most Surveyors fail to cover.

 

Why pay for a 'heavily padded report' when all you want really is a schedule of defects affecting the hull and the metal thickness.

 

Albi.

[AlanJ]

The impartial advice is worth a lot.

Remember, the surveyor isn't spending any money on the boat and won't be resposible for it once you've had his report so he has nothing to lose.

 

If you're happy with everything else and are only interested in the corrosion aspect of the hull, then I'm sure you'll be able to hire the equipment from somewhere; but I would only suggest doing so if you're really happy with everything else and are sure you can deal with it all...

[David Schweizer]

The impartial advice is worth a lot.

Remember, the surveyor isn't spending any money on the boat and won't be resposible for it once you've had his report so he has nothing to lose.

If you're happy with everything else and are only interested in the corrosion aspect of the hull, then I'm sure you'll be able to hire the equipment from somewhere; but I would only suggest doing so if you're really happy with everything else and are sure you can deal with it all...

 

Ah, but that is not ecxactly true. The surveyor is resposible if he/she fails to identify something which later results in the boat sinking or becoming flooded, so they cover their backs by nit picking every minor detail, just in case.

 

The surveyor who conducted a "hull only" Insurance survey on my boat wanted something changed because:- if the existing rear deck drainage system failed, water would find its way into the rear counter, and if the forwrad bulkhead then rusted through, water would find it self into the Watertight engine box, and if that rusted through it would flood the boat. There is currently no water in any of the compartments mentioned and no sign of rusting on any of the bulkheads mentioned so what the hell was he on about? Covering his back I would suggest. The survey is a pointless excercise if it goes to those extreems, even my Insurance agent agreed that the recommendations were excessive.

 

I subsequently discovered that the Surveyor I used has been sued several times which is clearly why he is now being ridiculously over zealous with fault finding. Funny how you find these things after the event.

[MtB]

Thanks for your comments everyone.

 

LEO said:

 

Interesting post, I would just ask for a hull ultra sound scan to check the metal thickness and pay accordingly. Have some spare cash to cover the problems which come to light when you use the boat though as these are points that most Surveyors fail to cover.

 

Why pay for a 'heavily padded report' when all you want really is a schedule of defects affecting the hull and the metal thickness.

 

This pretty much sums up our line of thinking. The point by carlt that a survey report listing a pile of faults we've already spotted can still be a useful tool for levering the price down is a good one too, especially with a vendor in denial about the faults. A professional survey report could turn out to pay for itself many times over, just because the faults are listed now by someone with 'authority'....

 

However, we are also wondering if the cost of the gear to measure hull thickness was comparable with the cost of employing someone to do it for us.

 

Does anyone know the proper name for the ultrasound thickness tester, do I can google for suppliers/prices?

 

Cheers, Mike

[carlt]

Clicky

 

First one off the google list but I see Tim is looking, who is far more knowledgeable about such matters.

 

I use a flat cabinet maker's screwdriver to test the thickness of my hulls.

[LEO]

Hi,

 

I agree about using any Surveyor's report to use a lever in price negotiations, but if one is reasonably practial it is possible to check the fittings on a boat to see if they work. Checking the water pump for leaks and importantly that the hot water/ heating system works properly and generally open cupboards etc to look for leaks.

 

All to often Surveyors generalise and comment that the service was covered and so could not be checked.

 

Surveyors and engines - can they really comment upon it's condition other than saying it's there and starts, if it is a vintage engine it might be worth commissioning an engine survey (probably the best thing to do), gearboxes the same.

 

Really the best thing is to rely on good documentation something which a prudent owner will have and be pleased to hand over, this should contain a comprehensive schedule of repairs servicing and expenditure.

 

If the Surveyors report is limited to those things you want inspecting you will save money and the best lever on price at the moment is ----- Cash!.

 

Carlt - I agree about the use of a screwdriver, when I used to do residential surveys I found a jemmy was also a useful tool for lifting floor boards, but few surveyors do this now with fitted carpets- just commenting that the area was carpetted and could not be inspected - an unsatisfactory comment if problems are found, as they must 'follow the thread' to avoid liability.

 

Albi.

[FORTUNATA]

The survey is an expensive business but if you're going to spend thousands of pounds, it's wise to get expert opinion. The hull is the main area that needs to be delved into. I paid 260 pounds for just the hull survey and the result was the boat was pretty much knackered and needed a total overplate of bottom and sides. It would be a good idea to get hold of the measuring instruments surveyors use and do some research on what to look for.

 

Just seen another boat we like, but it's 15 years old and we made our offer on it 'subject to survey'.

 

Now we're wondering what a surveyor might see that we woundn't be able to spot for ourselves. Never had a survey done on any other boat we've ever bought but then there have only ever been three! However I'm reasonably confident I can spot internal potential engineering/fit-out problems so I think the only area a survey is of value to us is in giving an opinion on the state of the hull. Is there anything I'm missing?

 

The only thing about the hull I'd want a surveyor to assess (I think) is the degree of corrosion and measure the thickness of the plating. I'm wondering whether I can buy whatever tool surveyors use to measure hull thickness and just assess the hull myself.

 

It's not a case of being a tight-wad and trying to save the money a surveyor costs, more a 'control' thing. I always want to do things myself when I can, for my own understanding and satisfaction. Nor do I want or need someone to sue if I get it wrong!

 

This is a well-built and well-maintained but somewhat tired 15 year old boat. Who here would get a professional survey done, who would get it lifted and inspect it themselves, and who would not bother with any of that? All opinions most welcome.

 

Cheers, Mike

[David Schweizer]

The survey is an expensive business but if you're going to spend thousands of pounds, it's wise to get expert opinion. The hull is the main area that needs to be delved into. I paid 260 pounds for just the hull survey and the result was the boat was pretty much knackered and needed a total overplate of bottom and sides. It would be a good idea to get hold of the measuring instruments surveyors use and do some research on what to look for.

 

I agree that if you are comparativley new to boats then a survey is a wise consideration, but frankly if you have been around boats for years and have practical experience of their maintenance, there is very little more a surveyor can tell you, than that which you can find out for yourself. Checking the depth of pits is fairly straight forward if you have a decent digital vernier. The only problem is ultrasonic thicknes testing which requires a meter costing around £150 - you don't need a really posh one unless you suspect the original thickness was less than 3mm.

Edited September 29, 2008 by David Schweizer

[RLWP]

We have recently had Tawny Owl's hull surveyed because the hull gave the boatyard a fright when they were going to black it. We have owned Tawny Owl for five years and blacked the hull ourselves last time. Here are some of the findings:

 

The hull had worn down to approx 2mm in places and needed shoes. The surveyor measured the hull, identified the problem and provided the welder with the thickness and length of the shoes needed. I could not have done this.

 

The hull had eroded at the back of the swim just forward of the propellor. The surveyor spotted this and specified the overplating necessary. I would not have known to look for this.

 

The back of the weedhatch had eroded so that the maximum pitting was about 6mm in a 6mm plate. The surveyor spotted this and specified the overplating necessary. Failure to spot this would have lead to the loss of a tank full of diesel. I would not have known to look for this.

 

We have a redundant water tank vent in the gas locker made from a vertical steel tube welded to the locker floor. This has rusted through and makes a gas leakage path into the water tank space. This is a BSS failure. I would not have dreamed of looking for this.

 

So, my experience is that the knowledge that a surveyor gains from regularly inspecting boats far outweighs my five years experience of living with ours.

 

Richard

 

Your experience with boats will not be the same as mine.

[LEO]

RLWP -

 

a very interesting reply, how old is Tawny Owl?, it would also seem that all your repairs were hull related suggesting that a hull survey is the best course of action - I would also go so far as to say that you had a very good surveyor.

 

ATB

Albi.

[RLWP]

RLWP -

 

a very interesting reply, how old is Tawny Owl?, it would also seem that all your repairs were hull related suggesting that a hull survey is the best course of action - I would also go so far as to say that you had a very good surveyor.

 

ATB

Albi.

 

Hi Albi, Tawny Owl is an ex Alvechurch hire boat from the early nineties. As a 70' boat she had quite a busy life, hence the need for shoes - wear and tear from the T&M apparently.

 

We went for a hull only survey as this was to address issues that the boatyard spotted. It still included propellor (loose nut and washer), bilge pump, rudder (bent), shower outlets (one broken off), internal hull inspection (rusty but dry) where possible.

 

I think the surveyor did a good job too. I'll dig his contact details out as I would be happy to recommend him.

 

Richard

[David Schweizer]

We have recently had Tawny Owl's hull surveyed because the hull gave the boatyard a fright when they were going to black it. We have owned Tawny Owl for five years and blacked the hull ourselves last time. Here are some of the findings:

 

The hull had worn down to approx 2mm in places and needed shoes. The surveyor measured the hull, identified the problem and provided the welder with the thickness and length of the shoes needed. I could not have done this.

 

The hull had eroded at the back of the swim just forward of the propellor. The surveyor spotted this and specified the overplating necessary. I would not have known to look for this.

 

The back of the weedhatch had eroded so that the maximum pitting was about 6mm in a 6mm plate. The surveyor spotted this and specified the overplating necessary. Failure to spot this would have lead to the loss of a tank full of diesel. I would not have known to look for this.

 

We have a redundant water tank vent in the gas locker made from a vertical steel tube welded to the locker floor. This has rusted through and makes a gas leakage path into the water tank space. This is a BSS failure. I would not have dreamed of looking for this.

 

So, my experience is that the knowledge that a surveyor gains from regularly inspecting boats far outweighs my five years experience of living with ours.

 

Richard

 

Your experience with boats will not be the same as mine.

 

Without trying to sound too arrogant, I would have almost certainly spotted all those faults if I had been regularly blacking the hull myself. In fact on an ex hire boat of that age I would have expected most of those problems to have manifested themselve ten years ago, so you have been lucky.

 

Hire boats usually need new shoe plates after less than ten years especially if they operate on shallow canals. I used to work a trip Boat on the westernn end of the K&A (Concrete bottom and sides) and we used to replace the shoe plates every two to three years.

Edited September 29, 2008 by David Schweizer

[RLWP]

Without trying to sound too arrogant, I would have almost certainly spotted all those faults if I had been regularly blacking the hull myself. In fact on an ex hire boat of that age I would have expected all those problems to have manifested themselve ten years ago, so you have been lucky.

 

Hire boats usually need new shoe plates after less than ten years especially if they operate on shallow canals. I used to work a trip Boat on the westernn end of the K&A (Concrete bottom and sides) and we used to replace the shoe plates every two to three years.

 

Hi David,

 

we knew that the boat would eventually need shoes, but I don't have the experience or equipment to work out the hull thicknesses or how much plating to do. The erosion stuff was completely unexpected and well outside of my experience.

 

My parting shot on my first posting was that my boat owning and maintaining experience would not be the same as anyone elses. In this case I have not been involved in working trip boats or doing regular blacking. This is why we employed a surveyor - a decision that I have been very happy with.

 

The question posed was "What can a surveyor do that we can't do for ourselves?" In my case the answer is "bring experience, knowledge and equipment to make recommendations on what work is needed on our hull". You will have a different answer for you and your boat.

 

Richard

 

Now, if you want to know about replacing sills on MG Midgets - I'm your man!

[LEO]

RLWP

 

I'm an MG man got a '71 B Roadster, had it from new 32500 on the clock.

 

Albih

[FORTUNATA]

I suppose the experience of looking at boats makes it easier for them to detect problems. What was the outcome of all of this? Are we talking major money here to set everything to rights?

The way I think at present, I wonder if a surveyor would do a cheap, hands-on look at a boat and hull before doing a survey per se? I mean by this that what we boaters need to be careful over is hiring a surveyor when it's pretty obvious a craft is going to fail. You need to hire a surveyor if you think there's a decent chance the survey won't be too catastrophic. My surveyor, for example, was able to show me there was bad pitting merely by touch and sight. Had I been a bit more clued-up, I'd have known a good boat from a bad boat by visual inspection.

 

 

We have recently had Tawny Owl's hull surveyed because the hull gave the boatyard a fright when they were going to black it. We have owned Tawny Owl for five years and blacked the hull ourselves last time. Here are some of the findings:

 

The hull had worn down to approx 2mm in places and needed shoes. The surveyor measured the hull, identified the problem and provided the welder with the thickness and length of the shoes needed. I could not have done this.

 

The hull had eroded at the back of the swim just forward of the propellor. The surveyor spotted this and specified the overplating necessary. I would not have known to look for this.

 

The back of the weedhatch had eroded so that the maximum pitting was about 6mm in a 6mm plate. The surveyor spotted this and specified the overplating necessary. Failure to spot this would have lead to the loss of a tank full of diesel. I would not have known to look for this.

 

We have a redundant water tank vent in the gas locker made from a vertical steel tube welded to the locker floor. This has rusted through and makes a gas leakage path into the water tank space. This is a BSS failure. I would not have dreamed of looking for this.

 

So, my experience is that the knowledge that a surveyor gains from regularly inspecting boats far outweighs my five years experience of living with ours.

 

Richard

 

Your experience with boats will not be the same as mine.