BW advisory forum - blimey

[Allan(nb Albert)]

Do you have a reference for this figure?

 

http://www.britishwaterways.co.uk/media/do...nts_2007-08.pdf

 

Look at the headline figures under "growing commercial income" or further on for more detailed info. Now I am no accountant but it seems to me that reserves have almost doubled over the last 5 years. Why are some of these reserves not used to plug the "grant gap" and the projected decline in commercial income?

 

Allan

 

ps Perhaps that fuss I little while back about BW's accounting was well founded - they have changed the figures for 2006/7 to show a different method of accounting.

[Chris Pink]

I read this as a loss of £4.1m before tax and £1.8m after tax (section 1:23), not sure where your £40m figure comes from? although the £500m reserves seems right.

 

edit: i see you refer to the property profit of £38m - I think it may be worth pointing out that this is gained by the sell off of our heritage, it's not really a profit as they were given it in trust to start with. Operationally they made a loss but I consider £1.8m a pretty small loss for a non-commercial organisation.

 

Mind, with director salaries at around £150,000 each (2002) it shouldn't be difficult to cut some of those losses be losing the incompetent ones.

 

I am going to start the complaints procedure, internally at first, with the intention of taking the case to the Ombudsman that the Advisory Forum is not proper consultation with all user groups and that the goal of raising another £5m from licence fees is an abuse of monopoly.

 

And all you NABO RBOA and IWA members out there - What are your organisations up to? Where is their voice in all this?

Edited September 10, 2008 by Chris Pink

[Allan(nb Albert)]

I read this as a loss of £4.1m before tax and £1.8m after tax (section 1:23), not sure where your £40m figure comes from? although the £500m reserves seems right.

 

edit: i see you refer to the property profit of £38m - I think it may be worth pointing out that this is gained by the sell off of our heritage, it's not really a profit as they were given it in trust to start with. Operationally they made a loss but I consider £1.8m a pretty small loss for a non-commercial organisation.

 

Mind, with director salaries at around £150,000 each (2002) it shouldn't be difficult to cut some of those losses be losing the incompetent ones.

 

I am going to start the complaints procedure, internally at first, with the intention of taking the case to the Ombudsman that the Advisory Forum is not proper consultation with all user groups and that the goal of raising another £5m from licence fees is an abuse of monopoly.

 

And all you NABO RBOA and IWA members out there - What are your organisations up to? Where is their voice in all this?

 

Hi Chris

 

A couple of points -

 

First point! Profit is profit. The fact that they have sold some of the family silver may make it "dirty money" in your eyes but it is our "dirty money" and the best thing to do with it is spend it on maintaining what heritage we have left - our canals.

 

Second point. I hate to be a wet blanket but several years ago I made a complaint about a "proposal" (which is what it is) only to be told it was inappropriate until it became policy. Also, you will find that the outcome of the consultation that BW did have included that they would consult with BWAF about future licence fee increases which is what they are doing.

 

If you want to complain, I suggest you do it on the basis misleading government, not documenting government policy and misleading boatowners by claiming that the old method of indexed increases was time expired - all to do with the consultation that has taken place.

 

You should also consider that as licencing is shown as a commercial enterprise in BW's accounts if they should be regulated.

 

Good luck!

 

Allan

[Chris Pink]

How about this?

The second limitation is that any pricing must be compliant with the requirements of competition law, the most relevant of which is that it must not amount to an abuse of dominance.

 

The third limitation is the general public administrative law duty placed on all public bodies to exercise any power reasonably in all the circumstances.

 

 

My complaint would be that they have breached both of these conditions by consulting only with those groups whose interests coincide with the conclusions drawn and by excluding those groups who would bear the brunt of the charges this is both an abuse of dominance and is not a reasonable exercise of power.

 

Your point about 'who regulates?' is very well made.

Edited September 10, 2008 by Chris Pink

[cotswoldsman]

First point! Profit is profit. The fact that they have sold some of the family silver may make it "dirty money" in your eyes but it is our "dirty money" and the best thing to do with it is spend it on maintaining what heritage we have left - our canals.

 

Just a small point and I have not looked at the accounts (stoped doing that when I retired) if the sale of property is listed as a profit then it must be the value gained over the amount stated as asets in the balanve sheet.

 

 

 

How about this?

 

 

 

My complaint would be that they have breached both of these conditions by consulting only with those groups whose interests coincide with the conclusions drawn and by excluding those groups who would bear the brunt of the charges this is both an abuse of dominance and is not a reasonable exercise of power.

 

Your point about 'who regulates?' is very well made.

 

chris

I am with you on this one and would love to see the minutes from these meeting to see exactly who spoke up for the interests of the people effected by these changes.

As said on earlier post still don't understand why APCO in the form of James Griffin and Nigel Stevens have 2 people in the forum. Something about Turkeys voting for Christmas comes to mind

[Allan(nb Albert)]

I'm afraid I will have to say it again - it is no use making a complaint about a proposal or someones views or discussions.

 

If you read BW's Licence Fee conclusions document you will see that BW concluded that two "suggestions" made during the licence fee consultation should be considered by BWAF.

 

Where any maladministration or unfairness lies is that that these suggestions seem to have come from BW's Sally Ash ringing round user groups asking for any changes they would like to see to licencing terms and conditions. This was outside the stated terms of reference of the consultation and contrary to government guidelines on consultation that BW must comply with. I have a couple of letters (thanks to BW's customer service manager Jonathan "Bollard" Bryant):-

 

Letter 1 is from APCO to Sally Ash explaining that BMF have already responded to the consultation and APCO's views are contained within the response.

 

It also documents that some members are concerned about continuous moorers. This somehow became £150 per cc!

 

Letter 2 is from DBA - it complains that BW is radically altering the consultation by canvassing views other than those related to price increases. This because someone (NABO?) has suggested length x width or a supplement for broad beams.

 

Where maladminstration has occured is that BW has attemped to pass off these "suggestions" as something that happened ancilary to its consultation.

 

If anyone would like a copy of these documents them PM me. If a general interest exists I will publish them (I have made one available on the OwnerShips forum as it is of interest to shared owners).

 

 

 

Regards

 

Allan

Edited September 10, 2008 by Allan(nb Albert)

[sueb]

I think you're right. What a shame you don't feel represented by the NABO, RBOA or the IWA.

 

I never did.

 

If any group of people belong on the canal system, historically, it is liveaboard continuous cruisers. The glossy picture books are full of them!

 

Edited for spiling.

Maybe the reason you, or anyone on the forum, don't feel represented by user groups is that you aren't on the committees making the decisions. The are a lot of people here sounding off but very few doing anything about it. It is a pity more boaters don't take an active part but then boaters would rather winge.

Sue

[sueb]

I read this as a loss of £4.1m before tax and £1.8m after tax (section 1:23), not sure where your £40m figure comes from? although the £500m reserves seems right.

 

edit: i see you refer to the property profit of £38m - I think it may be worth pointing out that this is gained by the sell off of our heritage, it's not really a profit as they were given it in trust to start with. Operationally they made a loss but I consider £1.8m a pretty small loss for a non-commercial organisation.

 

Mind, with director salaries at around £150,000 each (2002) it shouldn't be difficult to cut some of those losses be losing the incompetent ones.

 

I am going to start the complaints procedure, internally at first, with the intention of taking the case to the Ombudsman that the Advisory Forum is not proper consultation with all user groups and that the goal of raising another £5m from licence fees is an abuse of monopoly.

 

And all you NABO RBOA and IWA members out there - What are your organisations up to? Where is their voice in all this?

Become a member and then you would know instead of trying to find out on the cheap.

Sue

[Phoenix_V]

Become a member and then you would know instead of trying to find out on the cheap.

Sue

 

 

I am a member of IWA and an AWCC club there is nothing on either website about this nor on SOW

I am writing to both and will advise response. If any.

[howardang]

Become a member and then you would know instead of trying to find out on the cheap.

Sue

Exactly, Sue.

 

Instead of moaning from the sidelines join NABO Council. Nominations are still open until October 11th - I'll send a form to anyone who is interested or they can be found in the latest edition of NABO News - and the AGM is on 22nd November at Stafford Boat Club. NABO News is also a good place to look to see what is being done by the present Council, and the other user groups are equally active.

 

Howard Anguish

Edited September 10, 2008 by howardang

[Malarky]

I must put my oar in! The biggest problem is that if BW don't like what you do, they will sabotage your life, vandalise your possessions and steal what is left, useing ex-police who know how to get away with it, and have contacts in the police force to stonewall any complaints or reported crimes.

I have found discovering this very disturbing, and wonder why they are allowed to deal with people who have possesions, and live a relitively exposed life at all. They are criminals, and are hiding behind the government. It is our canal, and now with all the interest we should be running things, it would certainly save a few million, and we had no problems before they took over that which was abandoned.

The EA can police us, and Defra can fund us as we are the real legal custodians, Defra just needs to change its stewardship policy slightly to allow grants for property that is not owned by the applicant, and the mess BW has created by stealing permissary access, and suchlike and regestering it at the land registry as their land needs to be dealt with, as boundry lines are not acurate and can move,and they lost it years ago in some places and never owned it in others. They did not obtain sole use or consult anyone when claiming.In Oxford the towpath was on the opposite side, and got taken up with allotments, a village green; where the turning circle was; and a school, rather than confront this issue they just robbed the bank on the other side, a path that the last three or four generations made,and an important wildlife corridoor, and then manicured it. They also tried to rob my land and house.

Or am I just being puritanical, and it's all part of some new age government created lifestile for people who don't mind a bit of thieving and will do anything to get in with a nazi orientated BW to keep their dubiously aquired finances hidden in jumped up over priced fitted metal boxes.

[Allan(nb Albert)]

Become a member and then you would know instead of trying to find out on the cheap.

Sue

 

Fair point Sue. However, I am a member of both NABO and AWCC and ........

 

The AWCC's latest news on our website is dated 12th October. Either we have a crystal ball or we are 11 months out of date!

 

The latest NABO news on its website is that Challenger has gone bust (January 2008). Having said that, my latest NABO news (Isuue 4 June 2008 page 8) gives details of a BWAF meeting of 12th May.

 

So even if Chris had been a member of either of these organisations his information would be at least 3 months out of date.

 

 

 

Allan

[carlt]

Become a member and then you would know instead of trying to find out on the cheap.

Sue

Why do you assume people who criticise organisations aren't, or haven't been, members?

 

I have been a member of the IWA, NABO and RBOA without a chance of getting anywhere near the committee. It's like being in the, old, RAC. You might get a breakdown rescue but try getting a pint in the clubhouse:

 

Royal Automobile Club

 

Most of them are little clubs with select committee members, funded by the general membership who are kept out of the loop.

 

 

 

 

 

Maybe the reason you, or anyone on the forum, don't feel represented by user groups is that you aren't on the committees making the decisions. The are a lot of people here sounding off but very few doing anything about it. It is a pity more boaters don't take an active part but then boaters would rather winge.

Sue

Yes the papers are full of the direct action being taken by these hard-hitting, campaigning organisations.

[Tim Lewis]

Why do you assume people who criticise organisations aren't, or haven't been, members?

 

I have been a member of the IWA, NABO and RBOA without a chance of getting anywhere near the committee. It's like being in the, old, RAC. You might get a breakdown rescue but try getting a pint in the clubhouse:

 

Royal Automobile Club

 

Most of them are little clubs with select committee members, funded by the general membership who are kept out of the loop.

 

 

<Snip>

 

 

What a load of cobblers, I have been on IWA committees for many years and in every case they have been desperate for new blood, if anything people keep quiet at social meetings in case they get co-opted onto a committe! From what I read about other waterways organisations they are in the same position. In what way were you prevented from joining the committees of these organisations?

 

It is far too often the lack of active members that restricts the work of voluntary waterways organisations.

 

Tim

[carlt]

What a load of cobblers

 

That sort of attitude, really.

[saltysplash]

I have been a member of the IWA and DBA.

 

I stopped my subscription to these oragnisations as they no longer seemed to want to represent every boater, they had/have become an elitist social club no longer representing the issues facing boaters or even basic navigation rights, they just want to show who has the shineyest, poshest boat and slap each other on the back. God forbid anyone suggests they get down to basics and sort out barge moorings in the southeast or weed problems on such an such a stretch.

 

They used to do so much and be so vocal in their attempts to keep BWB on their toes.......but now, its just another club

 

I must put my oar in! The biggest problem is that if BW don't like what you do, they will sabotage your life, vandalise your possessions and steal what is left, useing ex-police who know how to get away with it, and have contacts in the police force to stonewall any complaints or reported crimes.

 

 

If you have a complaint against police your first course of action is visit the local stn.

 

The Duty Inspector has a "duty" to hear your complaint, if he/she is unable to resolve that complaint they have a duty to forward the complaint to the relevent force 'internal affairs' dept

If your still not happy with the result of thier findings then you have the right to complain to the Police Complaints Authority, an independant police complaint investigative body.....if they dont give you joy and you are still convinced that its a conspircy against you then you are snookered my friend

Edited September 11, 2008 by saltysplash

[Bones]

Exactly, Sue.

 

Instead of moaning from the sidelines join NABO Council. Nominations are still open until October 11th - I'll send a form to anyone who is interested or they can be found in the latest edition of NABO News - and the AGM is on 22nd November at Stafford Boat Club. NABO News is also a good place to look to see what is being done by the present Council, and the other user groups are equally active.

 

Howard Anguish

 

I was going to join NABO and went along to one of their meetings, but one of the comments put me off. I got the distinct impression they were fed up of rough boats having their stickers on because it doesn't 'give them a good name'. I decided my boat fell into that category and gave up. I did speak to the chairfolk and to the member that said that, and they back tracked. However, there were 4 of us there, they knew we were visitors and did nothing to encourage us to join so I am looking for something else to join - I thought I might start up the 'scruffy boat society' but haven't got around to it.

Edited September 11, 2008 by Bones

[saltysplash]

I was going to join NABO and went along to one of their meetings, but one of the comments put me off. I got the distinct impression they were fed up of rough boats having their stickers on because it doesn't 'give them a good name'. I decided my boat fell into that category and gave up. I did speak to the chairfolk and to the member that said that, and they back tracked. However, there were 4 of us there, they knew we were visitors and did nothing to encourage us to join so I am looking for something else to join - I thought I might start up the 'scruffy boat society' but haven't got around to it.

 

 

Im waiting for Fuzzy to get his alternative iwa up and running, then im going to champion his cause and promise not to mention his affair with NBW

[Allan(nb Albert)]

That sort of attitude, really.

 

I would say "half coblers". My experience is exactly the opposite to Carlt and in line with the other posters. If you stick your head above the parapet you will be invited to join a committee or serve the membership in some other way.

 

However, the other half of what he says is not coblers. Boater representation is fragmented due to various small groups and, in my rather limited experience, communication between committees, membership (and other groups) leaves something to be desired.

 

BW plays on this fragmentation and lack of communication getting one user group (or a member) to suggest that another groups members should be paying more.

 

For example, would BWAF be considering charging by width if DBA was part NABO?

 

Would BWAF be considering extra cc charges if APCO was aligned with NABO rather than BMF?

 

The only way to stop this is to have an umbrella organisation representing boaters. NABO falls nearest to this ideal. However, I suspect politics and petty rivalries would prevent boaters from presenting a united front under an umbrella organisation.

[Tim Lewis]

I have been a member of the IWA and DBA.

 

I stopped my subscription to these oragnisations as they no longer seemed to want to represent every boater, they had/have become an elitist social club no longer representing the issues facing boaters or even basic navigation rights, they just want to show who has the shineyest, poshest boat and slap each other on the back. God forbid anyone suggests they get down to basics and sort out barge moorings in the southeast or weed problems on such an such a stretch.

 

<Snip)

 

From my own experience in London I believe that you are being unfair to a number of very hard working people. With regards to Barge moorings in the South East the local IWA, mainly in the form of the late Mike Stevens, put an amazing amount of work in when the Downings Road barge moorings campaign on the Thames when they were under threat. We are/have been very vocal in getting resources from BW and the Lower Lea Project to sort out the weed problems on the Lea and the Bow Back Rivers.

 

Tim

[saltysplash]

From my own experience in London I believe that you are being unfair to a number of very hard working people. With regards to Barge moorings in the South East the local IWA, mainly in the form of the late Mike Stevens, put an amazing amount of work in when the Downings Road barge moorings campaign on the Thames when they were under threat. We are/have been very vocal in getting resources from BW and the Lower Lea Project to sort out the weed problems on the Lea and the Bow Back Rivers.

 

Tim

 

 

If that is recent then very well done and I mean that with respect to the memory of Mike

 

But, my association with those clubs ended several years ago, and any good work done now, isnt shouted loudly enough to cover the the apparant glaring lack of representation when it comes to issues such as this.

[Malarky]

If you have a complaint against police your first course of action is visit the local stn.

 

The Duty Inspector has a "duty" to hear your complaint, if he/she is unable to resolve that complaint they have a duty to forward the complaint to the relevent force 'internal affairs' dept

If your still not happy with the result of thier findings then you have the right to complain to the Police Complaints Authority, an independant police complaint investigative body.....if they dont give you joy and you are still convinced that its a conspircy against you then you are snookered my friend

 

All done, police complaints were helpfull, scince then I've had last two homes broken into and all mypaperwork stolen! which don't help, scince that's the records of names and dates, also moving to diffrent police areas is a problem, as you are right about the local police station sitch. It's become obvious that BW and the police have been infiltrated by quite a serious criminal network! I realy only got caught up in all this as I was persuaded by my community to go to a meeting held by the new boaters comeing on the canal in Oxford. Previously BW had asked me to liase with them on behalf of the community, and I refused as we had a perfectly healthy communication system that did not require any meetings.

On attending the meeting with another person, our questions were ignored, using the pamphlets that we were all given laying out what was on the agenda, ie make a relevant comment, and the chair would just refer everyone to the next topic, all heads woud bow, and everyone would just turn to the next page on the pamphlet! This seemed to cut the topic off. Ironicly the chair of the meeting has now bought my house for £14000, and the back garden from BW for £1000. The house had been in my possesion scince 1986, and the back garden had been part of it scince the thirties.

I had proved my rights to these properties in court.

The community that was moored there has now been destroyed. There are no children there anymore either.

 

I accept as everything is organic, everything is corrupt, and admit, before trying to be part of this new canal community, never had much trouble, I used to simply find the address of the relevent antagonist and knock on their door at about tea time, and politely confront them. They don't like you knowing where they live and back off immediately.

Thanks to this new canal community I shan't be involving myself in meetings in England ever again, a definate bonus!

 

Also I've found an alternative to vintage narrowboats- Vintage Buss conversions! So much wider in every concievable dimension, the only missing thing is not being able to revel in carrying loads of weight.

 

My sympathy goes out to anyone trying to "do the right thing" by involving themselves in meetings.

[carlt]

I would say "half coblers". My experience is exactly the opposite to Carlt and in line with the other posters. If you stick your head above the parapet you will be invited to join a committee or serve the membership in some other way.

When you go to an IWA meeting, with a view to getting involved, and you realise that your boats are on the agenda "High time we weeded out this type of boater and made the canals better for everyone." You realise that raising your head above the parapet would only start a firefight. Besides which, any organisation that on the one hand is supposed to lobby for the interests of waterways and their users and on the other is managing a waterway, with higher charges than any other, is a tad hypocritical.

 

RBOA is aimed at oap's spending their money before the kids get it.

 

NABO doesn't have a high enough profile because it isn't outspoken enough.

 

 

From my own experience in London I believe that you are being unfair to a number of very hard working people. With regards to Barge moorings in the South East the local IWA, mainly in the form of the late Mike Stevens, put an amazing amount of work in when the Downings Road barge moorings campaign on the Thames when they were under threat. We are/have been very vocal in getting resources from BW and the Lower Lea Project to sort out the weed problems on the Lea and the Bow Back Rivers.

 

Tim

Mike Stevens was an outstanding individual p*ssing in the wind blown by a stagnant organisation created by one giant ego climbing over the backs of the true campaigning pioneers.

[saltysplash]

All done, police complaints were helpfull, scince then I've had last two homes broken into and all mypaperwork stolen! which don't help, scince that's the records of names and dates, also moving to diffrent police areas is a problem, as you are right about the local police station sitch. It's become obvious that BW and the police have been infiltrated by quite a serious criminal network! I realy only got caught up in all this as I was persuaded by my community to go to a meeting held by the new boaters comeing on the canal in Oxford. Previously BW had asked me to liase with them on behalf of the community, and I refused as we had a perfectly healthy communication system that did not require any meetings.

On attending the meeting with another person, our questions were ignored, using the pamphlets that we were all given laying out what was on the agenda, ie make a relevant comment, and the chair would just refer everyone to the next topic, all heads woud bow, and everyone would just turn to the next page on the pamphlet! This seemed to cut the topic off. Ironicly the chair of the meeting has now bought my house for £14000, and the back garden from BW for £1000. The house had been in my possesion scince 1986, and the back garden had been part of it scince the thirties.

I had proved my rights to these properties in court.

The community that was moored there has now been destroyed. There are no children there anymore either.

 

I accept as everything is organic, everything is corrupt, and admit, before trying to be part of this new canal community, never had much trouble, I used to simply find the address of the relevent antagonist and knock on their door at about tea time, and politely confront them. They don't like you knowing where they live and back off immediately.

Thanks to this new canal community I shan't be involving myself in meetings in England ever again, a definate bonus!

 

Also I've found an alternative to vintage narrowboats- Vintage Buss conversions! So much wider in every concievable dimension, the only missing thing is not being able to revel in carrying loads of weight.

 

My sympathy goes out to anyone trying to "do the right thing" by involving themselves in meetings.

 

 

 

If your truly thinking of going down the vintage bus route, then just remember to try and avoid Sailsbury Plain at certain times of the year

 

As for Oxford and your problems, Nothing I can say will change your opinion of the rank an file constable.

 

I hope you get some trust and faith back one day.

 

G

Edited September 11, 2008 by saltysplash

[carlt]

If your truly thinking of going down the vintage bus route, then just remember to try and avoid Sailsbury Plain at certain times of the year

I would also add that a lot of the travellers I met, on the road, in my professional capacity, in the 90s have left site life and got boats, to avoid hassle from the authorities.

 

Keep legal and keep moving (or pay extra for the privilege of a home mooring) and BW are fine.

Edited September 11, 2008 by carlt