The Jobcentre and liveboards

[nbfiresprite]

Having just been made redundent by the college. They think that ICT will

run by its self and just call someone in if anything goes down.

 

Went along to local Job Centre (20 miles away) and was told that as I was

of no fix abode (Berth in local marina does not count), that I would have to

sign each day (200miles aweek). Has anyone else had this problem?.

 

Hopefull I be back in employment soon rather than later.

 

Firesprite

[denboy]

Having just been made redundent by the college. They think that ICT will

run by its self and just call someone in if anything goes down.

 

Went along to local Job Centre (20 miles away) and was told that as I was

of no fix abode (Berth in local marina does not count), that I would have to

sign each day (200miles aweek). Has anyone else had this problem?.

 

Hopefull I be back in employment soon rather than later.

 

Firesprite

do you get mail to the boat in the marina ie bank statement or bill of some description

Edited July 9, 2008 by denboy

[Chris Pink]

Having just been made redundent by the college. They think that ICT will

run by its self and just call someone in if anything goes down.

 

Went along to local Job Centre (20 miles away) and was told that as I was

of no fix abode (Berth in local marina does not count), that I would have to

sign each day (200miles aweek). Has anyone else had this problem?.

 

Hopefull I be back in employment soon rather than later.

 

Firesprite

 

They are just being lazy, as long as you have a postal address (anywhere) you can insist that they use this rather than sign on as NFA. You have to a,. insist on your rights, b. go to the next level manager every time you meet a brick wall.

 

CAB or Claimant Advice Centres will also help but the principle is the same; make it easier to give you what you need than to refuse it.

 

If you don't have a postal address, use Poste Restante or get a PO Box. Just prefix it with your boat name, eg NB Firesprite, Poste Restante, Burnley or whatever and just keep insisting this is you postal address.

[Smelly]

There's no statutory framework for teh frequency of signing, reg 23 -24 JSA regs simply states that you must attend when required and furnish such information as is requested to establish entitlement and the labour market conditions. there's probably an entry in teh Decision Maker's Guide, which is available via the DWP website as to what criteria they're looking at (I might look tonight, depends whetehr the cat comes home in which case we're cruising)

 

You can ask the Executive Officer who's decided as much to reduce the frequency of your signing, alternatively a decent adviser might be able to get a dialogue going, if you want either tell me where you are here, or via PM I can ask on teh adviser's chat boards to see whether anyone's in any kind of regular contact and recommend an agency to speak to.

 

If you do it yourself don't forget it's discretionary, be nice! Some JC+ employees are actually people and if you come across as a person they'll see sense, unfortunately some aren't, but as I say a local adviser may know more, so give us yer details and I'll go fishing.

 

Decision maker's guide here... read the instructions it's wierd to navigate... http://www.dwp.gov.uk/publications/dwp/dmg/

[Smelly]

Had a look, they're worried about your not being able to receive info about potential jobs. there's evidently a practice note by DWP that your EO is thinking he's tied by and it's mentioned in the DMG only briefly The practice note (they call 'em circulars) will be difficult to source as it's not referenced in our literature (CPAG Welfare Benefits Handbook, there's a copy in most libraries) but it should be on the DWP website somewhere.

 

If you're asking for a review it'd be handy to show evidence that you reliably receive post at a given address, bear in mind a collection service will ring alarm bells so a residential address or the marina address would be fine, when up North the local Jobcentre were happy to use the local pub.

 

Take it from a professional, complaining won't get you anywhere, they've got a discretion and you want them to use it in your favour.

 

I'll re-iterate the fact that I can possibly recommend a local advice agency who can help so where are you?

[Smelly]

As an aside, if I were requesting a review in similar circ's I'd probably point the officer in question to this site as good evidence that us boaters are not all pikeys (sorry Carl) vagrants

[carlt]

As an aside, if I were requesting a review in similar circ's I'd probably point the officer in question to this site as good evidence that us boaters are not all pikeys (sorry Carl) vagrants

No apology necessary. The assumption that everyone who leads an alternative lifestyle is a "pikey" leads us to the situation where NFAs are not trusted to "jobseek" with the same enthusiasm as "normal folk".

 

I went through the same thing, despite not even wishing to make a claim. I just wanted them to find me some work. I managed to convince them I was serious, eventually but it was necessary to seek one of the less "bureaucratic" members of staff.

 

He even convinced me that I was entitled to some money and should put in a claim.

 

My mum used to work for the single person's homeless unit, for a city council, btw and had some people, on her books, claiming benefit using bus stops or postboxes as an address so it can be done.

[Smelly]

I hope you know I was only kidding.

 

In official mode they shouldn't be thinking pikeys, a lovely Court of Appeal decision called Kerr reminds the Secretary of State that he's not the claimant's adversary, it's just the culture at DWP that sometimes leaves staff with that impression and sometimes, even when I'm being nice, they can't see past the fact that i'm not even claiming, and trying to say I'm hoping to grease the proverbial wheels! However knowing people on the front line at JC+ they do get some sh#t thrown at them and often they don't deserve it, so it's not too surprising they end up with a grudge.

 

As an impartial advocate I often end up representing said same sh#t slingers, as well as the fraudsters where JC+ have simply got their sums wrong (that really hurts) but you still meet the genuinely ill people who actually need help and I must remember that (Budhist OOOHHHMMMMMM!). Since the General Matching Service started matching tax paid on savings to NI numbers we've seen loads of fraudsters and respected colleagues have walked because of it, still it'll calm down once they've caught them all

 

 

Anyhow

 

Firesprite, talk to me! I've got a volunteer in Kings Lynn who I respect who's eager to help.

 

Edited to say I think when we were living in trees that we put a spanner in the works with stuff like post boxes/bus stops/trees as postal addresses as with a postal address it was much easier to call it a "dwelling" which is much harder to evict. The PO used to deliver to anything they could identify but they told us the rules changed while we were on the M65 campaign at Blackburn in '94/5.

Edited July 9, 2008 by Smelly

[Smelly]

i'll stop watching this tomorrow, firesprite, if it ain't sorted PM me. Someone's briefed and ready (and I've had a handy chat about boater's circ's elsewhere)

 

Entertainingly, the bloke who writes the Housing Benefit handbook once told me he's a boater... The truth is out there!

[nbfiresprite]

They are just being lazy, as long as you have a postal address (anywhere) you can insist that they use this rather than sign on as NFA. You have to a,. insist on your rights, b. go to the next level manager every time you meet a brick wall.

 

CAB or Claimant Advice Centres will also help but the principle is the same; make it easier to give you what you need than to refuse it.

 

If you don't have a postal address, use Poste Restante or get a PO Box. Just prefix it with your boat name, eg NB Firesprite, Poste Restante, Burnley or whatever and just keep insisting this is you postal address.

 

All of us who live at the marina have our post delived to the marina office. And I produce letters from both the tax office and t

the council at the time.

 

 

Firesprite

 

 

Take it from a professional, complaining won't get you anywhere, they've got a discretion and you want them to use it in your favour.

 

I'll re-iterate the fact that I can possibly recommend a local advice agency who can help so where are you?

 

 

The uncivil servant is question has been stamped on by the area manager. And have moved on to signing by post.

So complaining does work, you just need to go up the food chain. Deal with the 'organ grinder' and not the 'monkeys'.

Also helps if you have a string of letters after your name.

 

This uncivil servant clearly followes the narrow minded 'New Labour view' that anyone with out a Job is 'worksly' and on the 'fiddle' and that his job was to get the 'worksly' off the books. Seems he did the same sort of thing at the Huntingdon office to boat owners and was transfered.

 

Firesprite

[John Orentas]

Having just been made redundent by the college. They think that ICT will

run by its self and just call someone in if anything goes down.

 

Went along to local Job Centre (20 miles away) and was told that as I was

of no fix abode (Berth in local marina does not count), that I would have to

sign each day (200miles aweek). Has anyone else had this problem?.

 

Hopefull I be back in employment soon rather than later.

 

Firesprite

 

Before I officially retired I signed on at the Job Centre as I was advised to do..

 

Don't expect any kind of civilised behaviour from any of these people, I was 'signing' twice a week for a few months, then one day I was 'summoned' for an interview with one of the clerks, she told me that a document that she had told me to sign, had not been responded too and as a result she was 'withholding' a weeks benefit.

 

I wrote several letters explaining that I am not in desperate need of the money, but probably most of the people who find themselves in a similar position most certainly will be and there was not a shred of evidence that I did not behave correctly.. This situation dragged on for many weeks, me writing long letters and they responding with those lazy, silly 'standard' sentences that are an option on their antique computer system..

 

The outcome was that I took them to an independent tribunal, I won the case but they did not have the grace to even turn up.. They pleaded guilty to a very minor technicality in order that a precedent would not be set on the basis of my central argument.

 

A few week later that Job Centre in question was closed and all that worked there made redundant, I shed a few tears for those poor people.

[Sir Nibble]

This uncivil servant clearly followes the narrow minded 'New Labour view' that anyone with out a Job is 'worksly' and on the 'fiddle' and that his job was to get the 'worksly' off the books. Seems he did the same sort of thing at the Huntingdon office to boat owners and was transfered.

 

Firesprite

Lord above! You obviously never had any time unemployed under the tories, unlike about half the country. It was like a form of ritual humiliation, show up at 10.45 to sign at 11, que 'till 11.45, get told "You're late" and be sent away to come back and que some more in the afternoon. Sent once for a "Review" and found myself interviewed by a girl of about 12 who complained that I had not been in when one of their mobile fascists came around. turned out I was at an interview and had the letter to prove it. She said that by being out I was "not available for work", so I looked her in the eye and said "Let's get this straight, I must not attend job interviews, I have to stay in and wait for you to come round and offer me a job" she returned my gaze unembarrassed and said "Yes".

[tidal]

JO

 

Same here.

 

I lived in a salty marina for 18mths and it took me 6 months of that time to get them to play nice.......and in the end I had to get an MP to ask them for a formal decision.

 

 

I was in the process of putting together a case to try to get them to pay my mooring fees on the basis that it was the same legally as ground rent payments they made in other areas..... Odd really as it would have saved them 57% of what they were willing to pay me to rent a flat

 

Sadly ( ) I got work out in Spain before I got that very far down the legal route....

Edited July 11, 2008 by tidal

[Stonker]

Before I officially retired I signed on at the Job Centre as I was advised to do..

 

Don't expect any kind of civilised behaviour from any of these people, I was 'signing' twice a week for a few months, then one day I was 'summoned' for an interview with one of the clerks, she told me that a document that she had told me to sign, had not been responded too and as a result she was 'withholding' a weeks benefit.

 

I wrote several letters explaining that I am not in desperate need of the money, but probably most of the people who find themselves in a similar position most certainly will be and there was not a shred of evidence that I did not behave correctly.. This situation dragged on for many weeks, me writing long letters and they responding with those lazy, silly 'standard' sentences that are an option on their antique computer system..

 

The outcome was that I took them to an independent tribunal, I won the case but they did not have the grace to even turn up.. They pleaded guilty to a very minor technicality in order that a precedent would not be set on the basis of my central argument.

 

A few week later that Job Centre in question was closed and all that worked there made redundant, I shed a few tears for those poor people.

 

If you were not seeking work you should not have been signing on. I was formerly one "of these people" and ended up managing a Jobcentre (although in the days when the Benefit Office was separate from the jobseeking office). When you register at the Jobcentre you are registering as a "Jobseeker". Actively seeking work is one of the conditions that you agreed to when you signed on and every time you signed, whether it was once a week, once a day or once a month, you confirmed that you were seeking work. If you were not seeking work you should not have been signing on and you should not have been receiving any kind of benefit. I would have disallowed your benefit on the grounds that you were not seeking work but you would probably have still got National Insurance credits which I guess is the reason someone advised you to sign on. A gap in your National Insurance can effect the amount of pension you get. If you had explained this you would probably have had an easier time.

 

Your statement "Don't expect any kind of civilised behaviour from these people" is absolute rubbish. Jobcentres are no different from any form of officialdom, they have a set of rules they are supposed to apply, although in DWP they are so labyrinthine that it's all too easy for both parties to get things wrong, which is one reason why there is an adjudication service that people can have their cases reviewed by which you seem to have used successfully.

 

The people there are like people everywhere, some are good, some are bad, sometimes they will have an off day. Sometimes a "customer" will get up their nose and they will not be helpful. In fact they can make your life very difficult. Very few do that just because they can and there are no excuses for doing that, even though they do suffer from extreme provocation and physical assaults at times. It would be good if this did not happen but many of the people using the Jobcentre (unlike you) are desperate to get their benefits whilst out of work so that they can feed, house and clothe themselves and their family and their frustration with the system the staff have to apply gets out of hand.

 

It can be very frustrating when you're trying to help people find a job if they are not genuinely looking for one. I remember sending a letter to one person when I worked in South Yorkshire asking him to contact me about a painting and decorating job that had been notified to us by a local firm. He turned up a couple of weeks later on his regular signing day. When I asked why he had taken so long to respond he said he was living in his caravan in Skeggy for the summer and only came home to sign on. He must have been decorating his caravan because I did notice he had paint all over his clothes and his hands. Yeah right.

 

Stewart

 

PS I now work for a company that does a lot of DWP's IT systems, if you think they were bad when you signed on you should see them now!

[John Orentas]

Hi Stewart.

 

You seem to be as arrogant and self opinionated as the 'officials' that I was unfortunate enough to come across.. You seem to know a great deal about my circumstances, or are you just guessing in the same way as those I sadly became acquainted with, you and they are totally wrong in your wild assumptions..

 

So you boast that you stopped a chaps benefit on the grounds that he had some paint stains on his clothing, very clever but I hope you were correct in the conclusion you leaped to..

 

Anyway thank you for confirming my admittedly stereotypical view of your 'breed' and no, I will certainly not be discussing my private affairs with you or anyone else of your type ever again, the episode was a self inflicted experiment I will never repeat.

Edited July 11, 2008 by John Orentas

[Stonker]

Hi Stewart.

 

You seem to be as arrogant and self opinionated as the 'officials' that I was unfortunate enough to come across.. You seem to know a great deal about my circumstances, or are you just guessing in the same way as those I sadly became acquainted with, you and they are totally wrong in your wild assumptions..

 

So you boast that you stopped a chaps benefit on the grounds that he had some paint stains on his clothing, very clever but I hope you were correct in the conclusion you leaped to..

 

Anyway thank you for confirming my admittedly stereotypical view of your 'breed' and no, I will certainly not be discussing my private affairs with you or anyone else of your type ever again, the episode was a self inflicted experiment I will never repeat.

 

John,

 

I am merely voicing an opinion that differs from yours, I am not insisting that you or anyone else has to share mine, but I found your post one sided and wanted to voice a different opinion.

 

I did not boast that I stopped anyone's benefit. Read the post again.

 

You should be pleased to hear that as I don't have any children there will be no more of my "breed".

 

Stewart

[Troll]

Forgive me, I havent read all of the posts above on this subject but, I was talking with a guy only the other day about something very similar, well benefits anyway, he was really peed off, and I mean really peed off, he said he F in reported his x wife for opening a shop whilste claiming benefit.

 

He said she claims rent and council tax on top of her benefits, and he was really peed off, that they did nothing.

 

Shes still tradeing from her new shop financed by a boyfriend, shes claiming some kind of incapacity, I think he said, funny he said, shes well enough to work in her own shop, with advantages over other traders.

 

The job centre should get their priorities right, and help those genuine claimants and do their stuff on the others.

[alan_fincher]

So you boast that you stopped a chaps benefit on the grounds that he had some paint stains on his clothing, very clever but I hope you were correct in the conclusion you leaped to..

John,

 

You seem to be reading a lot of posts, and managing to see things that are just not there.

 

At no point does the last poster say, or even imply, what you have written.

 

(I'm not joining the debate either way, having had rough times from Job Centres in the distant past, but also known some very decent people who worked in them. However I think it's at least fair to quote what a post actually says).

[tillergirl]

come on peeps !! this is a guy who worked, has lost his job and just wants to be treated like everyone else in his situation. Just because he chooses to have a different home life to other people should not make the slightest difference.

 

I'm sorry I can't offer any advice.........like other people we've have bad experiences of Jobcentres in the past

[larkshall]

come on peeps !! this is a guy who worked, has lost his job and just wants to be treated like everyone else in his situation. Just because he chooses to have a different home life to other people should not make the slightest difference.

 

I'm sorry I can't offer any advice.........like other people we've have bad experiences of Jobcentres in the past

 

 

Here here tillergirl, I have had some grotty experiences too,

[Sir Nibble]

Sorry, cock up.

Edited July 14, 2008 by snibble

[tomsk]

If you were not seeking work you should not have been signing on. I was formerly one "of these people" and ended up managing a Jobcentre (although in the days when the Benefit Office was separate from the jobseeking office). When you register at the Jobcentre you are registering as a "Jobseeker". Actively seeking work is one of the conditions that you agreed to when you signed on and every time you signed, whether it was once a week, once a day or once a month, you confirmed that you were seeking work. If you were not seeking work you should not have been signing on and you should not have been receiving any kind of benefit. I would have disallowed your benefit on the grounds that you were not seeking work but you would probably have still got National Insurance credits which I guess is the reason someone advised you to sign on. A gap in your National Insurance can effect the amount of pension you get. If you had explained this you would probably have had an easier time.

 

Your statement "Don't expect any kind of civilised behaviour from these people" is absolute rubbish. Jobcentres are no different from any form of officialdom, they have a set of rules they are supposed to apply, although in DWP they are so labyrinthine that it's all too easy for both parties to get things wrong, which is one reason why there is an adjudication service that people can have their cases reviewed by which you seem to have used successfully.

 

The people there are like people everywhere, some are good, some are bad, sometimes they will have an off day. Sometimes a "customer" will get up their nose and they will not be helpful. In fact they can make your life very difficult. Very few do that just because they can and there are no excuses for doing that, even though they do suffer from extreme provocation and physical assaults at times. It would be good if this did not happen but many of the people using the Jobcentre (unlike you) are desperate to get their benefits whilst out of work so that they can feed, house and clothe themselves and their family and their frustration with the system the staff have to apply gets out of hand.

 

It can be very frustrating when you're trying to help people find a job if they are not genuinely looking for one. I remember sending a letter to one person when I worked in South Yorkshire asking him to contact me about a painting and decorating job that had been notified to us by a local firm. He turned up a couple of weeks later on his regular signing day. When I asked why he had taken so long to respond he said he was living in his caravan in Skeggy for the summer and only came home to sign on. He must have been decorating his caravan because I did notice he had paint all over his clothes and his hands. Yeah right.

 

Stewart

 

PS I now work for a company that does a lot of DWP's IT systems, if you think they were bad when you signed on you should see them now!

 

You do seem to be gifted with the special type of petty-minded jobsworthery suited to such employ, additionally you sound so proud of making a mockery of the IT systems as well... Good work fella... Getting paid for making peoples lives miserable must be most rewarding.

[Sir Nibble]

You do seem to be gifted with the special type of petty-minded jobsworthery suited to such employ, additionally you sound so proud of making a mockery of the IT systems as well... Good work fella... Getting paid for making peoples lives miserable must be most rewarding.

I have to say, that my experience suggests that job centre staff are chosen from those who take delight in tormenting and humiliating the vulnerable. They certainly do it with every appearance of enjoyment.

[StoneHenge]

I've been lucky, I've never had to sign on. The very thought immensely depresses me.

 

When one of my work collegeauges went to do that after she had voluntarily left her job because of stress related issues, she was so completely humiliated by the way she was treated, she never went back after a month of abuse.

 

They were cruel beyond belief and were so curt and nasty I am not surprised so many people find it a dreaful experience. They bascially told her she was an idiot for leaving her job and that she was required to attend interviews for jobs whether she wanted to or not, or else she wouldn't get her allowance.

 

Now I know there are conditions, but she was actively seeking work. What she did want was to find a job she really wanted to do after what was almost 25 years in the same job. She was filling out loads of application forms, but you can't just walk into a job these days. She was the wrong side of 40, and being told by some 20 year pip squeak that you are an idiot and being so belittled is just plain wrong. She was one of the good guys, actively seeking work, not lounging around.

 

I was only out of work once since the age of 17, for two weeks, when I had moved to Leicester when I ws 21. I flatly refused to go anywhere near the job centre and got myself work within those two weeks.

 

I can imagine it must be frustrating when you are working in a place trying to get people in work, when it is obvious some people simply do not want to work, but you would have to be pretty desperate not to work for the measly sum they expect you to 'actively' seek work with.

[larkshall]

Stonehenge, even when seeking work, you will find jobcentres of little or no use. In the current climate many of th staff are seeking alternative work, due to arbitary work gaols, humiliation, poor pay, and stress.

I have twice had to use their services in the last 3 years, and the attitude has actually got worse. Being a single white male I was told 'no chance' to claim any benefits, or help. I was not one of their target groups.