"Working" Boat Etiquette.

[alan_fincher]

I love an unconverted working boat, or better still a pair. If I were incredibly rich, and money and time no object, I'd be out there looking.

 

But, as has been said on another thread, only a handful of such boats are now working for a living, and even those that are seldom have much to justify needing to move around the system faster than other boats.

 

I also like to see such boats being worked properly, if it doesn't inconvenience or intimidate other canal users.

 

And there's my dilemma.

 

I've recently seen several unconverted boats working their way through in the "old" ways, which usually involves leaving gates wide open and paddles drawn. But these days the general code, unless there are local reasons why not, is generally "leave everything shut".

 

What do people reckon ? Is it reasonable for the operators of these boats, (which are generally "leisure boats" in the same way as those belonging most of us), to continue the practices of the past. Or should they adhere strictly to the same guidelines as the rest of us ?

 

Alan

[carlt]

Personally I think they should follow the same practices as the rest of us, though I'm not sure closing gates is one that needs to be followed, especially when single handed.

 

Many of the old practices were not developed with a great regard to health and safety.

 

There is, of course, always a great debate on what, exactly, is the correct practice of operating the various pieces of canal furniture.

[hughc]

With a pair, especially two handed, it is positively dangerous to stop and close gates. Consider the position leaving Alrewas lock for example with a cross current at the lock tail and the need to bring the butty out, on at best a short strap, because it won't come out on cross straps that's for sure. With a pair at narrow locks it is - usually- quicker for all concerned ,if the pond is running weir, for the butty to follow the motor through. With the butty held on the bottom gate for example it takes far longer to move the motor, move the butty and then work a downgate through than it does to refill the average narrow lock and bring the butty up. This has nothing to do with arrogance - I hold no brief for working boat steerers who hog the channel just because they can-but it has a great deal to do with everyone moving with least delay possible. Over the years most people we have met have been happy with this arrangement and have seen the reason for it but we have met the odd one or two who have totally lost it when asked if they minded waiting for a couple of minutes.The co-operation offered is seems to be in inverse proportion to the cost of the boat. However whilst someone stands and patiently listens to their moans the butty is usually in the lock and on the way up. Regards, HughC.

Edited July 1, 2008 by hughc

[SteveE]

With a pair, especially two handed, it is positively dangerous to stop and close gates. Consider the position leaving Alrewas lock for example with a cross current at the lock tail and the need to bring the butty out, on at best a short strap, because it won't come out on cross straps that's for sure. With a pair at narrow locks it is - usually- quicker for all concerned ,if the pond is running weir, for the butty to follow the motor through. With the butty held on the bottom gate for example it takes far longer to move the motor, move the butty and then work a downgate through than it does to refill the average narrow lock and bring the butty up. This has nothing to do with arrogance - I hold no brief for working boat steerers who hog the channel just because they can-but it has a great deal to do with everyone moving with least delay possible. Over the years most people we have met have been happy with this arrangement and have seen the reason for it but we have met the odd one or two who have totally lost it when asked if they minded waiting for a couple of minutes.The co-operation offered is seems to be in inverse proportion to the cost of the boat. However whilst someone stands and patiently listens to their moans the butty is usually in the lock and on the way up. Regards, HughC.

 

My own view is that the spectacle and the skills of operating working boats, especially a motor/butty pair are part of the history and heritage of the canals, just like strapping posts and turnover bridges, and should be admired and supported by the rest of us, who are basically holidaymakers. If that means waiting a bit longer at locks or getting out of the way on a shallow cut then so be it. Who's in a hurry anyway?

SteveE

[alan_fincher]

My own view is that the spectacle and the skills of operating working boats, especially a motor/butty pair are part of the history and heritage of the canals, just like strapping posts and turnover bridges, and should be admired and supported by the rest of us....

Yes, I'd like to agree, Steve,

 

However, I think there is a fine line to be drawn somewhere.

 

Working boatmen regularly indulged in practices that did far more damage to the canal infrastructure than BW would like to now be the case for us leisure boaters. And there were far bigger maintenance teams ready to respond to failures of gates and paddle gear that had been treated to rough usage. It's also perhaps questionable whether some of the "updated" infrastructure, (e.g."plastic" rather than wooden paddles), can withstand the same abuse as that of 40 or 50 years ago. Also there is often less built in redundancy - if all the top gate paddles have been removed from a lock, which also leaks badly at the bottom end, the breakage of one of the two remaining ground paddles can sometimes render the lock almost unworkable.

 

So whilst I delight in seeing a motor butty pair being expertly worked, if the display extended to fully winding paddles at one end of a lock, before any attempt was made to shut gates at the other, (as sometimes happened in the past), I don't think I could be as supportive.

 

Most of these working boat crews are as much "holidaymakers" as you or I, and pay for the same licence type. If they get up to things that wastes licence money, then, however authentic, I can't support them.

 

This is not an attack on working boat owners - most act very responsibility. But I have encountered recently the attitude of I can do what I like, because of the type of boat I own. Yes mate, it may all look very authentic, but that's still fridge, cooker and sink I can see under your top-cloths. And your boat got by without a 70 HP engine in it's working days!.....

[John Orentas]

My own view is that the spectacle and the skills of operating working boats, especially a motor/butty pair are part of the history and heritage of the canals, just like strapping posts and turnover bridges, and should be admired and supported by the rest of us, who are basically holidaymakers. If that means waiting a bit longer at locks or getting out of the way on a shallow cut then so be it. Who's in a hurry anyway?

SteveE

 

 

But surely they are only 'working boats' when they are working, 99% of them are just toys, touring around with empty holds, crew dressed up in freshly laundered denim.. A few years ago the crew of President got themselves in trouble when they expected all other boats to gave way to them at locks.

 

The one exception I would make would be for horse boats, in that case not only the hardware is worthy of preservation but the skills and traditions too.. Walk a horse from Manchester to London that is the real thing, certainly not 'playing with toys'.

[alan_fincher]

A few years ago the crew of President got themselves in trouble when they expected all other boats to gave way to them at locks.

Some of the more shambolic working of a pair of boats in recent years was a massive crew of neckerchiefed types trying to get President and Kildare through a pretty straightforward double lock.

 

To quote a line I picked up from television "all the gear, no idea!...."

[Phil Speight]

I love an unconverted working boat, or better still a pair. If I were incredibly rich, and money and time no object, I'd be out there looking.

 

But, as has been said on another thread, only a handful of such boats are now working for a living, and even those that are seldom have much to justify needing to move around the system faster than other boats.

 

I also like to see such boats being worked properly, if it doesn't inconvenience or intimidate other canal users.

 

And there's my dilemma.

 

I've recently seen several unconverted boats working their way through in the "old" ways, which usually involves leaving gates wide open and paddles drawn. But these days the general code, unless there are local reasons why not, is generally "leave everything shut".

 

What do people reckon ? Is it reasonable for the operators of these boats, (which are generally "leisure boats" in the same way as those belonging most of us), to continue the practices of the past. Or should they adhere strictly to the same guidelines as the rest of us ?

 

Alan

I think they should follow the same rules the rest of us do ( or should ). As you say - most of them are simply pleasure boats and the few that do actually generate income are doing it througha "lifestyle" choice rather than family or economic necessity. Don`t get me wrong - thise who earn a living working boats have my greatest respect - but you can`t have two sets of rules , it simply leads to chaos and misunderstandings. As to the leisure EX-working boats - that`s all they are. This does not mean I wouldn`t like to see the canal used properly - but most of the infrastructue has gone , along with much of the knowledge and culture. Still it would be good to know that there are still those out thre who know how to do it right - it`s just not that simple on todays canal - efficient is good , educative , usually safest and more often than not demands old fashioned skills - but not at the expense of other people`s pleasure .

Cheers

Phil

Edited July 1, 2008 by Phil Speight

[stort_mark]

But surely they are only 'working boats' when they are working, 99% of them are just toys, touring around with empty holds, crew dressed up in freshly laundered denim.. A few years ago the crew of President got themselves in trouble when they expected all other boats to gave way to them at locks.

 

That manages to come across with such lack of grace, so filled with bitterness. Toys? Hmmmmm.

I can understand some of the attitude towards wkg boat crews as on two occasions, I have seen incredibly arrogant behaviour, but again a sweeping generalisation seems to be unnecessary.

 

fwiw, the most recent incident was at the London Cavalcade when a pai completely screwed it up. I happened to be nearby on the offside and offered to keep his bow off the bank for him. "No" he grunted. (No word of appreciation) and instead did it himself, with both boats ending up even all over the place. Itook photographs of it all instead, having been put in my place by the...ahem...professionalism of the steerer.

[NB Alnwick]

What do people reckon ? Is it reasonable for the operators of these boats, (which are generally "leisure boats" in the same way as those belonging most of us), to continue the practices of the past. Or should they adhere strictly to the same guidelines as the rest of us ?

 

Can you drive a privately owned preserved/restored vintage bus along a bus lane?

 

Of course not!

 

And nor should the owners of these old working boats be entitled to behave any differently to anyone else who works their boat through locks and movable bridges.

 

That doesn't mean that those of us who admire them and the work that has gone into preserving them shouldn't show considerable respect if that is the way we feel and personally, I always give way to a boat that is likely to be deeper in the water than am I . . .

 

Having said that, it is still possible to encounter a real working boat - we did today!

 

Edited July 1, 2008 by NB Alnwick

[stort_mark]

Can you drive a privately owned preserved/restored vintage bus along a bus lane?

 

<snip> <snip>

Having said that, it is still possible to encounter a real working boat - we did today!

 

 

... agree wholeheartedly. I have found that when I admire/respect other boaters, I tend to let them go ahead anyway.

[Ray]

If I mention trip boats or boats being transferred as part of a move your boat business, do I need to get my coat?

[blackrose]

I've recently seen several unconverted boats working their way through in the "old" ways, which usually involves leaving gates wide open and paddles drawn. But these days the general code, unless there are local reasons why not, is generally "leave everything shut".

 

What do people reckon ? Is it reasonable for the operators of these boats, (which are generally "leisure boats" in the same way as those belonging most of us), to continue the practices of the past. Or should they adhere strictly to the same guidelines as the rest of us ?

 

Alan

 

Great! I leave everything open anyway! I never realised I was a true traditionalist. I feel righteous!

[GUMPY]

Great! I leave everything open anyway! I never realised I was a true traditionalist. I feel righteous!

I will also admit to leaving gates open on the southern GU, after all it is river fed and when I started boating that was the accepted norm south of the summit.

 

Coming back a couple of weeks ago we did no more that 3 locks before a passing a boat going the other way so at least 7 boats had an easy passage for a lock or two.

 

Having said that if it is posted that a lock needs to be left closed then I will close up or if someone is following me, however that normally slows both crews down by at least 5 minutes a lock.

 

There is nothing more anoying than having passed a boat going the other way to arrive at the next lock to find that its 3 inches off.

 

Julian

[fuzzyduck]

With all due respect, but if you want me to give way to you as a "working boat" I'm going to want to see your evidence of duty rebated dieseel as of later this year.

 

As far as I'm concerened, unless you are one of the few mobile shops / fuel barges etc you are not a working boat. just because it's old doesn't mean its a working boat.

 

I'll always give due consideration to motors and butties, because of your "handicap" as it were, likewise horse boats.

[DHutch]

Personally I think they should follow the same practices as the rest of us, though I'm not sure closing gates is one that needs to be followed... <snip>

Sounds about right to me....!

 

I also really like to see something diffrent on the cut, and upto a point im happy to work round that even, but there is a give and take.

- Dont get me started on President. Wouldnt mine a day on board in the future, but they do seam to frequently embaress themselfs. And the number of times we hear "but i thought president where the only steam boat on the system." Yeah right, more like one of about ten!!

 

 

 

Daniel

[alan_fincher]

And the number of times we hear "but i thought president where the only steam boat on the system." Yeah right, more like one of about ten!!

Yeh!, but I've seen you with yours Daniel.

 

Not a pair of breeches, flat cap or red neckerchief in sight. How do you expect to be recognised as a proper steam boat.

[Postcode]

I think the above sums up my feelings - I love to see ex-working boats around the system.

 

I try to buy from boats currently plying their trade but I think the rules are the same for all of us and it is up to each of us to decide how much we are willing to give way.

 

I have no problem with a motor and butty working through a lock one after the other because in my eyes it is absurd to do it any other way on a narrow lock.

 

I agree with Alnwick and acknowledge that he won't have to give way to many by way of draught!

Edited July 1, 2008 by Postcode

[tony collins]

As far as I'm concerened, unless you are one of the few mobile shops / fuel barges etc you are not a working boat. just because it's old doesn't mean its a working boat.

 

I'll always give due consideration to motors and butties, because of your "handicap" as it were, likewise horse boats.

 

I'm glad to read your final sentence. However there are several 70' pairs earning a living throughout the March to October season, and covering much more of the system than many "continuous cruisers". Many of these display all the skills of the old boatman in respect of boat handling, but without damaging the infrastructure in the "traditional" way. The pairs concerned? Why Hotel Boats of course

 

 

Tony

[carlt]

I'm glad to read your final sentence. However there are several 70' pairs earning a living throughout the March to October season, and covering much more of the system than many "continuous cruisers". Many of these display all the skills of the old boatman in respect of boat handling, but without damaging the infrastructure in the "traditional" way. The pairs concerned? Why Hotel Boats of course

 

 

Tony

And a couple of idiotic operators (who have to remain nameless) who persist in giving the rest of the Hotel Boat companies a bad name.

[tony collins]

And a couple of idiotic operators (who have to remain nameless) who persist in giving the rest of the Hotel Boat companies a bad name.

 

Absolutely!

[Dominic M]

Fascinating that some people now have an old "working" boat that never works and think they can drop paddles with a loud bang, demand precedence at a lock, and have the Daily Telegraph sitting atop their unlit boatman's range. I imagine Joe Skinner is turning in his grave.

[norman18grp]

Speaking as a single crewed boater , I always close gates and paddles behind me (unless another boat is approaching ).

So when I'm traveling down a long flight of locks and the boat in front is leaving the bottom gates and paddles open at every lock you can imagine my frustration !

 

Now if its a H&S issue like at Alrewas then fair enough but but Not every Lock !

 

This subject raises its ugly head from time to time (that Pillock Adrian Stott from waterways world magazine made my blood boil with an entire article on it {that was a big part in me canceling my subscription})

 

BW advise us all to close gates and paddles behind us !

 

On the Aire and Calder and the South Yorkshire Navigations Lock Keepers are available to assist commercial Traffic (sometimes a mobile lock keeper will drive between locks) to keep boats moving .

 

I'm sure this service would be available on other waterways if full scale commercial traffic were in need of it .

[Hairy-Neil]

So when I'm traveling down a long flight of locks and the boat in front is leaving the bottom gates and paddles open at every lock you can imagine my frustration !

 

But how would you feel if you came across a whole flight that was set for you? The law of averages dictates it would be 50% of the time....

 

I'm aware that sod's law also plays a part,....

[bargeeboy]

Common sense should prevail.

 

Southern G U always leave at least one gate open

 

Unless of course there is visible leakage from the gates.