Is this legal?

[Dominic M]

The days of horse drawn traffic are gone, sad to say, and so are the byelaws of the canal companies.

 

Have they??? I must get out more.

[saltysplash]

Have they??? I must get out more.

 

 

LOL

 

I shouldve added ......but they are coming back with the demise of diesel...are there any budding welder out there ready to try and weld some rudder fixings to my stern for the day when Swmbo gets her dream pony

 

 

Edited to add

 

Swmbo says " my pony will not be forced to drag a boat....it will walk alongside and when it gets tired, it will sit on the roof munching hay, while we drift due to lack of fuel"

 

 

further edited to add

 

 

She says, " While pony is resting, salty will pull the boat after I have dressed him in, saddle, bridle and fittend his nose bag, once with nose bag salty will be happy to go for miles.....as long as nosebag is alcohol based"

Edited May 31, 2008 by saltysplash

[stort_mark]

... Is this legal?

 

Yes. Within reason, moreorless any sign that BW puts up on their land is "legal". Whether it is meaningful is an entirely different proposition and would depend on the outcome of legal action. Ideally, common-sense would prevail whereby the operator would take care not to sweep objects off the roof of others' boats while those mooring might look to remove rooftop objects where practical. Sadly, common sense is not so common these days.

[Paul H]

The days of horse drawn traffic are gone, sad to say, and so are the byelaws of the canal companies.

The British Waterways byelaws are actually still in force and can be downloaded in PDF form on http://www.hnboc.org.uk/. There's various references to the use of towpaths not interfering with the towing of vessels. The days of horsedrawn traffic are indeed sadly gone in most places but not in this special case - that was my point.

 

I am also firmly of the belief that the needs of navigation should always take precedence over moorings - the canals system is not a linear marina and yet so many boaters seem to resent anyone passing them, motorised or horsedrawn, at any time of the day and at any speed. You are mooring on a navigation rather than they're navigating through a mooring!

 

How many trips does the horsedrawn boat make in a day? 2? 3? I'd come out of my boat, enjoy the spectacle , assist the horse driver get the line over my boat or push off somewhere else.

 

Paul H

[saltysplash]

The British Waterways byelaws are actually still in force and can be downloaded in PDF form on http://www.hnboc.org.uk/. There's various references to the use of towpaths not interfering with the towing of vessels. The days of horsedrawn traffic are indeed sadly gone in most places but not in this special case - that was my point.

 

I am also firmly of the belief that the needs of navigation should always take precedence over moorings - the canals system is not a linear marina and yet so many boaters seem to resent anyone passing them, motorised or horsedrawn, at any time of the day and at any speed. You are mooring on a navigation rather than they're navigating through a mooring!

 

How many trips does the horsedrawn boat make in a day? 2? 3? I'd come out of my boat, enjoy the spectacle , assist the horse driver get the line over my boat or push off somewhere else.

 

Paul H

 

 

Paul you are right, I really beleive most of us would be out of the doors to have a look and enjoy the scene of a H/D boat passing. even now both swmbo and i always look at each other and say "Engines" then peer eagerly through a window in order to see a boat moving. BUT!!

 

even though BW Byelaws are still inforce and can be downloaded in PDF format...times have moved on.......Some if not a lot of the byelaws are way out of date, and without looking dont i seem to remember a BWB byelaw outlawing horses on the towpath? or did i dream that?

 

The 21st century english canal is 99.9% lesuire which means those miles of empty towpath are legal game for the cruiser to drop anchor and set up the barbi.

 

Navigation yes...but also enjoyment for all....If by some miracle our canal system is ever upgraded to a system like in Belgium or Holland then i will gladly make way for commercial vessels as i have done many times while on those systems....but god forbid that you should ever interfere with those navigations by using a horse!

 

 

 

edited to add...

 

again,i still say that maybe we will go back to H/D boats with the way fuel is going....I paid £1.34 PL 2 days ago going to work

Edited May 31, 2008 by saltysplash

[stort_mark]

I'd come out of my boat, enjoy the spectacle , assist the horse driver get the line over my boat or push off somewhere else.

 

Unless of course you weren't there and came back to your boat to find everything that was formerly on your roof now in the canal.

 

Not everyone has the luxury of being on their boat all the year round to watch out for incoming horse-drawn boats.

[dave_2A_]

after I have dressed him in, saddle, bridle and fittend his nose bag,

 

Sounds like my sorta gal!!

[hughc]

The steerers of horse drawn working boats wanted a horse that would 'backer on' and the horse certainly didn't stop to lift its line. People enjoy the canals in part because of the history and culture of the system and horse drawn boats are part of that. Babylon boats certainly are not, especially those that can only be steered safely by standing on a box to see over the garden.If canal cred is earned by artificial rivets cloth caps and waistcoats then it is certainly lost by the first sight of a floating herbaceous border. regards, HughC.

[stort_mark]

If canal cred is earned by artificial rivets cloth caps and waistcoats then it is certainly lost by the first sight of a floating herbaceous border. regards, HughC.

 

On the Oxford Canal last week it was amusing to see how many people have simply taken over the towpath and the hedge behind the towpath, filling it with assorted plastic tables, huge barbecue units, plastic garden storage units, benches, flowerpots and variuos moped and car parts. Parts of the canal are like a linear aquatic Alabama trailer-park. One grumpy old git complained because I had the temerity to walk my dogs (both on lead, both impeccably behaved) through his towpath garden.

 

Residential-moorers-on-towpaths please note: your licence permits you a place to tie your boat to the bank, it is not deed title to great swathes of the land and hedgerow alongside.

[FadeToScarlet]

 

On the Oxford Canal last week it was amusing to see how many people have simply taken over the towpath and the hedge behind the towpath, filling it with assorted plastic tables, huge barbecue units, plastic garden storage units, benches, flowerpots and variuos moped and car parts. Parts of the canal are like a linear aquatic Alabama trailer-park. One grumpy old git complained because I had the temerity to walk my dogs (both on lead, both impeccably behaved) through his towpath garden.

 

Residential-moorers-on-towpaths please note: your licence permits you a place to tie your boat to the bank, it is not deed title to great swathes of the land and hedgerow alongside.

 

Presumably there was a horseboat coming along so they had to move all the c**p off their roof

[John Orentas]

I like horses, I like horseboats and I like the people who strive to keeps the boats moving and the skills and traditions alive.. On the other hand I do not like those people that set up home on the towpath, live in boats that are a total eyesore and store their junk on the roofs of them.

 

If there was a choice of what was to be 'swept away' I know which way I would go, even if the outcome would make the membership of this forum a bit slimmer.

Edited June 1, 2008 by John Orentas

[carlt]

Regardless of one's opinion of how someone else keeps their boat, until a law is passed, making it illegal to store items on the roof (or have an aerial/wind turbine/ solar panels), a horse boat operator is not allowed to knock items off a roof, and a sign put up by BW does not indemnify him.

 

I don't think this thread originally set out to criticise how tidy some people keep their roof. It was a question about whether a sign denying responsibilty absolves anyone of that responsibility.

 

I had my car door knocked off, in Tesco's car park, by a woman who just didn't see it, while swmbo was loading the sprog into his seat.. No amount of "Cars are parked at owner's risk" signs stopped her insurance company shelling out for a new one.

 

Edited to say: 1978 mk1 cavalier, btw, so it probably offends someone's aesthetic sensibilities and shouldn't be allowed on the road.

Edited June 1, 2008 by carlt

[John Orentas]

Regardless of one's opinion of how someone else keeps their boat, until a law is passed, making it illegal to store items on the roof (or have an aerial/wind turbine/ solar panels), a horse boat operator is not allowed to knock items off a roof, and a sign put up by BW does not indemnify him.

 

 

I am not sure that the sign threatened anyone with having their stuff 'knocked off the roof'.

 

Another aspect which concerns me is the growing legalistic language on the canals.. When I began boating you never saw signs or heard people saying you can't do this or you can't do that and the words 'legal' and 'illegal' were never seen or heard.. It is almost as if people relish the thought of laws telling them, or better still telling others what to do.

[carlt]

I am not sure that the sign threatened anyone with having their stuff 'knocked off the roof'.

 

Another aspect which concerns me is the growing legalistic language on the canals.. When I began boating you never saw signs or heard people saying you can't do this or you can't do that and the words 'legal' and 'illegal' were never seen or heard.. It is almost as if people relish the thought of laws telling them, or better still telling others what to do.

It didn't threaten but it did say that items were left on roofs at the owner's own risk. This is absurd, and meaningless.

 

Nobody has a right to damage your property, and the operator has a duty of care.

[Ex- Member]

I have to agree that wording is awful, and is of course percieved to be a little one sided.

 

Something along the lines. Please could boaters remove items from their roofs to avoid any risk of damage. As in life politeness goes a long way---------------mostly

Edited June 1, 2008 by Julynian

[carlt]

I have to agree that wording is awful, and is of course percieved to be a little one sided.

 

Something along the lines. Please could boaters remove items from their roofs to avoid any risk of damage. As in life politeness goes a long way---------------mostly

That would be better.

 

I remember, years ago, I was putting petrol in the outboard tank of the Dawncraft, at Foxton.

 

The horse boat was coming along, knocking off chimneys and the guy was shouting "Sorry! I'll get you a new one! Excuse me! That'll be replaced"

 

I was intent on transferring fuel without spillage so didn't notice the rope catch on the big plywood cover, lifted up to expose outboard and tank.

 

As it was ripped off the cover glanced off my head (no damage done) and flew across the cut.

 

The horseboat operator was mortified and told me to get it professionally fixed (the cover, my head was beyond repair well before this incident) and drop him the bill. I assured him it was just a few hinge screws and no harm was done and we parted friends.

 

A woman moored up permanently told me that he usually fished everyones stuff out with a magnet but, if broken or unrecoverable, he was always good to his word and replaced new for old.

 

I don't know if he's still there (it was around a decade ago) but this attitude fostered good relations between trip boat and everyone else, without the pointless intervention of BW's bureaucrats.

[Hobbler]

 

On the Oxford Canal last week it was amusing to see how many people have simply taken over the towpath and the hedge behind the towpath, filling it with assorted plastic tables, huge barbecue units, plastic garden storage units, benches, flowerpots and variuos moped and car parts. Parts of the canal are like a linear aquatic Alabama trailer-park. One grumpy old git complained because I had the temerity to walk my dogs (both on lead, both impeccably behaved) through his towpath garden.

 

Residential-moorers-on-towpaths please note: your licence permits you a place to tie your boat to the bank, it is not deed title to great swathes of the land and hedgerow alongside.

 

A few years ago some of the offside moorings on the Gloucester & Sharpness Canal had storage boxes , sheds and gardens , many of which had been placed there for a decade or more with the full knowledge and in some cases written permission from Bw . However the new Bw Moorings Officer decided to start a "Moorings Standardisation Initiative " which involved everything not on the moored boat being removed or uprooted if the moorer had planted it and the mooring had to be returned to its natural state .The moorers all received letters saying if they did not comply then the mooring permit would not be renewed.

The person responsible later left BW but there was talk of the Standardisation scheme being rolled out on a national basis - I never heard if anything more was done.

[Nige G]

If they've got to lift the rope over the chimneys why can't they be arsed to lift it over everything else?

[carlt]

A few years ago some of the offside moorings on the Gloucester & Sharpness Canal had storage boxes , sheds and gardens , many of which had been placed there for a decade or more with the full knowledge and in some cases written permission from Bw . However the new Bw Moorings Officer decided to start a "Moorings Standardisation Initiative " which involved everything not on the moored boat being removed or uprooted if the moorer had planted it and the mooring had to be returned to its natural state .The moorers all received letters saying if they did not comply then the mooring permit would not be renewed.

The person responsible later left BW but there was talk of the Standardisation scheme being rolled out on a national basis - I never heard if anything more was done.

The mooring refers to the boat against the bank. Mooring t&cs may forbid you to put stuff on the bank but they have to enforce it.

 

If you store your property on land, with no objection from the land owner, for a period of time (I believe it's 7 years, but may be 12, I'll look it up) you acquire the right, through common law, to continue to do so.

 

Doesn't mean they can't stop you mooring there, of course, though it may be worth looking into Article 8.

Edited June 1, 2008 by carlt

[Alan Saunders]

Well done BW! The sign is adequately and concisely worded to warn boaters of the hazard and to deny that BW is responsible. It omits to say that once a week there is a return trip to Hungerford and there are many charter trips as well as the few scheduled public trips which go some way beyond Kintbury.

 

I enjoy the sight of a horsedrawn boat but this one is a menace, BW must be inundated with complaints. The operator runs across the roof of the boat leaping from roof to deck or muddy shore and on to the next boat to an encouraging chorus of oohs! and aahs! from the passengers. They do not use a pole to raise the rope and, in places, low hanging branches make it impossible. Whilst they make some attempt, unlike a West Country Barge, the boat is not designed to be poled when the tow is detached. If you remove all the chimneys etc the wet, gritty rope is dagged across the cabin top and cratch cover, snagging on the pigeon box and vents and flattening the radio aerial. Even if you are on board you have no warning of their approach and any attempt to assist would be hazardous.

 

Hearsay has it that no one has successfully claimed for damages. I considered writing to the company saying that they were not to board my boat or drag their rope over it but the sometimes aggressive attitude of the operator suggests that this may be counterproductive.

 

If you intend to moor between Hungerford and Kintbury call the Kennet Horse Boat Company 01488 658 866 and ask if any trips are imminent then pass on the info to your neighbours.

 

Alan

Edited June 1, 2008 by Alan Saunders

[carlt]

Not sure that there is any more "heritage value" in a 30 year old, purpose built, fat narrowboat trip boat than a purpose built 30 year old clonecraft narrowboat, with a roof garden??

[laural]

It suprises me this.

Why on earth should boaters not put pots,bikes,wood,coal ect on their roof?

Perhaps a sign from othe victims perpective should be put next to the BW sign.

This activity could course danger to flu's and chimneys.

[stort_mark]

It suprises me this.

Why on earth should boaters not put pots,bikes,wood,coal ect on their roof?

Perhaps a sign from othe victims perpective should be put next to the BW sign.

This activity could course danger to flu's and chimneys.

 

Errrr...let's try the British Waterways Act 1995, Part III, Article 18 (1): No person shall moor or otherwise leave a vessel on an inland waterway so as to cause [sic] obstruction or hindrance to navigation...

 

Then there are the BWB Bye-Laws which are made pursuant to the powers of the British Transport Commission Act 1954. In Art 32 it says that "no person using the towing path on any canal shall obstruct, interfere with or hinder the towing or navigation of any vessel on the canal and such person shall permit any person engaged in towing or navigating any vessel and any horse or vehicle used for such purpose to pass on the side of the towing path nearer to the canal."

 

There is also Art 7, a requirement to have goods and equipment stowed so that it cannot be washed or swept into the canal.

 

So take your pick. There's nothing wrong with putting whatever you like on the roof of your boat but if it obstructs another vessel passing by then it is illegal (and actually can incur a Level 3 fine).

[saltysplash]

Errrr...let's try the British Waterways Act 1995, Part III, Article 18 (1): No person shall moor or otherwise leave a vessel on an inland waterway so as to cause [sic] obstruction or hindrance to navigation...

 

Then there are the BWB Bye-Laws which are made pursuant to the powers of the British Transport Commission Act 1954. In Art 32 it says that "no person using the towing path on any canal shall obstruct, interfere with or hinder the towing or navigation of any vessel on the canal and such person shall permit any person engaged in towing or navigating any vessel and any horse or vehicle used for such purpose to pass on the side of the towing path nearer to the canal."

 

There is also Art 7, a requirement to have goods and equipment stowed so that it cannot be washed or swept into the canal.

 

So take your pick. There's nothing wrong with putting whatever you like on the roof of your boat but if it obstructs another vessel passing by then it is illegal (and actually can incur a Level 3 fine).

 

 

BW also make provision that you can moor on any section of the tow path ( unless otherwise restricted) for a maximum of 14 days.

 

So one rule negates another and regard less of byelaws, what is the factor here is reasonable behaviour. both by the moorer and the Horse boat operative...is running across the roofs of boats reasonable in this respect when alternative methods such as a rope pole are available for the horse boat and reducing the equipment on the roof by the moorer.

 

Its an example of 'this is how it used to be done so thats how we are going to do it.'

 

 

That aint reasonable these days.

 

The sign could be worded better , requesting moored boats to reduce their air draft to aid the horse drawn boats which in turn will do all that is reasonable to try and avoid sweeping items off boaters roofs, without the need to scramble across boat roofs. ...Thats just down right ignorant...but then again....the horse handlers are students doing the job to pay their ever increasing fees and have no knowledge of etiquete or civility when it comes to earning some beer tokens........Thats not applicable in all cases btw

 

 

 

 

 

 

edited to add, dont i recall somwhere that horses are also banned from the tow path? or did i just dream that....maybe it was horse power

Edited June 3, 2008 by saltysplash

[saltysplash]

Errrr...let's try the British Waterways Act 1995, Part III, Article 18 (1): No person shall moor or otherwise leave a vessel on an inland waterway so as to cause [sic] obstruction or hindrance to navigation...

 

Then there are the BWB Bye-Laws which are made pursuant to the powers of the British Transport Commission Act 1954. In Art 32 it says that "no person using the towing path on any canal shall obstruct, interfere with or hinder the towing or navigation of any vessel on the canal and such person shall permit any person engaged in towing or navigating any vessel and any horse or vehicle used for such purpose to pass on the side of the towing path nearer to the canal."

 

There is also Art 7, a requirement to have goods and equipment stowed so that it cannot be washed or swept into the canal.

 

So take your pick. There's nothing wrong with putting whatever you like on the roof of your boat but if it obstructs another vessel passing by then it is illegal (and actually can incur a Level 3 fine).

 

 

Ive just re read the 1995 act and it quite clearly states 'Hindering any person or vehicle'!!!! no mention at all of our equine friends or other beasts of burden so does this mean horses are indeed no longer welcome on canal tow paths