What would you do?

[Chertsey]

I had the idea that digital photographs could not be used in evidence because of the possibility of their having been manipulated. Anyone else heard that?

This wouldn't stop the police using them for identifying suspects etc of course.

[Chris Pink]

Interesting thread. Last year i confronted a youth for throwing an empty bottle of water at my feet when i was stood next to a bin. This was 10.30 on a Sunday morning, i was with my two children and girlfriend. I actually work in a youth Justice Team and tend not to be intimidated by youths/hoods etc. However, the situation escalated rather fast...he got on the phone to his "posse", we had to leave the area...FAST, and then spent the next two weeks dodging this idiot and his mates who kept prowling the streets looking for me. This happened in Hulme. I found out through other people on the estate that of all the people i confronted, it was "junior" a 19 year old gun totting bad boy that had been delivering deals of smack and crack on his mountain bike since the age of 9 and is now one of the most feared/violent people in Hulme! Needless to say, i learned a valuable lesson that morning...The kids these days (and many adults) don't give a XXXX and are just looking for an excuse to release some of that pent up frustration they carry around.... We totally left the area as a result of that episode.... My advice....phone the police everytime....Let them deal with it!!!

 

 

Are we not in danger of getting a little out of hand on this thread? - is the justifiable fear of a 'gun-toting' person in Hulme (incidentally the use of the word 'toting' indicates in some part an approval through reinforcement stemming from watching Westerns, in my opinion), Hulme historically a fairly dangerous place - to stop us expressing our disapproval at someone discarding rubbish on the towpath?

[itinerant baker]

If anyone is afraid of other people and what they may do to you I'd advise you to find a good dojo and take up Aikido - it will teach you self defence but will also teach you a lot about yourselves.

[philandiz]

Are we not in danger of getting a little out of hand on this thread? - is the justifiable fear of a 'gun-toting' person in Hulme (incidentally the use of the word 'toting' indicates in some part an approval through reinforcement stemming from watching Westerns, in my opinion), Hulme historically a fairly dangerous place - to stop us expressing our disapproval at someone discarding rubbish on the towpath?

 

I was just adding my tuppence to the prospect of getting involved in this day and age....and no, not through watching westerns, rather working in M.A.G.S (Manchesters Anti Gang Strategy) and the Trafford Youth Offending Team - dealing with "kids" shooting at each other on a weekly basis!

 

Ps. sent you a message about the genie...waiting on a call.

[Amduck]

isn't that why the tiller arm is removable?

 

 

Interesting idea. Wait til they're not home, remove tiller arm, place with rubbish on towpath, leave nice polite (anonymous) note explaining where it is and asking them to take rubbish too while they're collecting it.

 

Probably can't read though - maybe that's why they can't find rubbish points.

[bjornunda]

At the risk of raising(?) the tone of this discussion I offer this snippet:-

 

 

 

Yellow

by: Robert W. Service

 

One pearly day in early May I walked upon the sand

And saw, say half a mile away, a man with gun in hand.

A dog was cowering to his will as slow he sought to creep

Upon a dozen ducks so still they seemed to be asleep.

 

When like a streak the dog dashed out, the ducks flashed up in flight.

The fellow gave a savage shout and cursed with all his might.

Then as I stood somewhat amazed and gazed with eyes agog,

With bitter rage his gun he raised and blazed and shot the dog.

 

You know how dogs can yelp with pain; its blood soaked in the sand,

And yet it crawled to him again, and tried to lick his hand.

"Forgive me Lord for what I've done," it seemed as if it said,

But once again he raised his gun -- this time he shot it dead.

 

What could I do? What could I say? 'Twas such a lonely place.

Tongue-tied I watched him stride away, I never saw his face.

I should have bawled the bastard out, a yellow dog he slew.

But worse, he proved beyond a doubt that - I was yellow too.

[magpie patrick]

I shall definitely report it. I just need to take a walk down to where the little sod has moored up now. I think this one is a pro at dumping. He's no name on the boat, and the index number is inside the boat stuck in the window between a frame, so you can't see one number. Obviously doesn't like to be noticed. Is that legal?

 

Oh and we will definitely be moving on at the weekend. I can't stand people like that.

 

It's contrary to regulations

 

4.1 You must display the Boat’s name, and the Licence and Boat

index number on both sides of the Boat so that they are always

easily visible by our people on the towpath.

If the Boat is covered (e.g. during winter), you should paint or

display the Boat’s index number in some other way so that it

can always be seen.

 

Tell BW where the boat is and the chances are a ranger/lengthsman/someone will be along to stick a notice on it. He may have a licence but BW like people to make licence enforcement easy by displaying the index number properly

[Chris Pink]

I was just adding my tuppence to the prospect of getting involved in this day and age....and no, not through watching westerns, rather working in M.A.G.S (Manchesters Anti Gang Strategy) and the Trafford Youth Offending Team - dealing with "kids" shooting at each other on a weekly basis!

 

 

 

I'm not belittling the work you do, or the danger of certain parts of Manchester, i have worked in Hulme.

 

I am saying that you cannot extrapolate from your experience there to everywhere else otherwise we will all live in fear.

[BlueStringPudding]

Interesting idea. Wait til they're not home, remove tiller arm, place with rubbish on towpath, leave nice polite (anonymous) note explaining where it is and asking them to take rubbish too while they're collecting it.

 

Probably can't read though - maybe that's why they can't find rubbish points.

 

Do they have a cruiser stern? Perhaps a nice safe place for the rubbish would be all over the engine bay?

[StoneHenge]

It's contrary to regulations

 

4.1 You must display the Boat’s name, and the Licence and Boat

index number on both sides of the Boat so that they are always

easily visible by our people on the towpath.

If the Boat is covered (e.g. during winter), you should paint or

display the Boat’s index number in some other way so that it

can always be seen.

 

Tell BW where the boat is and the chances are a ranger/lengthsman/someone will be along to stick a notice on it. He may have a licence but BW like people to make licence enforcement easy by displaying the index number properly

 

I had a feeling it wasn't on. He does seem to have a licence so I'll have a look if I can. There are only a couple of boats there, one of which has no license, and no name displayed, and hasn't done for ages. They tend to stick together, so if I get spotted, I could well end up trying to spot my boat, but I will report it.

 

We don't tend to get many serious incidents like shootings down here, but, and I say a bit but, it can happen, once in a while someone goes out with violent intentions. There are often punch ups and things going on all over the place. I avoid town centre like the plague in the evenings because there is so much alcohol related violence, and some of that spreads to quiet country roads near canals as they know police don't drive down there, so they can drink and cause havoc, do their drugs etc.

[dave_2A_]

Whereabouts in Leics are you? I've never found the city itself to be that bad. Mind you- I don't do the clubbing bit any more, and it was always the 'Rock/Alternative' clubs (which some people may be surprised to learn have a damn sight less trouble than the 'trendy' ones). If I ever manage to get the right boat at the right price it'll be moored somewhere in that area, so it'd be nice to know where to avoid!

[Teadaemon]

I had the idea that digital photographs could not be used in evidence because of the possibility of their having been manipulated. Anyone else heard that?

This wouldn't stop the police using them for identifying suspects etc of course.

 

Digital photographs are just as acceptable in evidence as traditional photographs.

 

Whilst they can be manipulated easily, this manipulation is very rarely good enough to withstand detailed scrutiny, and depending on the software used and the file format, evidence of such manipulation may end up in the metadata part of the file, easily accessible to anyone with the appropriate software. Aside from that, what's really important if you want to use a photograph (traditional or digital) as evidence is that the person who took the photograph turns up in court to declare on oath that the picture is a true and accurate depiction of what they saw at the time. (Of course if the picture had been manipulated or staged in some way, then the person making that declaration in court would be committing perjury, and would be liable to prosecution).

[BigRoj]

Both Laural and WarriorWoman have the right idea, and the one I was clumsily trying to disport. The Law enforcement agencies, (Police, Revenue&Customs, MOD etc) do welcome any Photographic/Video evidence of any law-breaking, mostly for identification of the wrong-doers so a case can be built against them. However, this evidence cannot be used solely for a conviction unless the guilty party is aware that they are being recorded. Which is why there are so many "Police Speed Camera" signs on the roadside. If you are caught speeding on a road where there is no sign within, I think, 1 mile, of the camera, then you can contest the legality of the photo evidence as you haven't been warned.

It is this principle which applies to other acts of illegallity caught on camera, which, I believe, stems from the 'Human Rights Act'.

 

I went into all this a few years ago when I managed to accrue 9 points in 3 weeks on my driving licence. The laws may have altered since then.

[Phil Speight]

I'm not belittling the work you do, or the danger of certain parts of Manchester, i have worked in Hulme.

 

I am saying that you cannot extrapolate from your experience there to everywhere else otherwise we will all live in fear.

Many of you will know our "Black Shed" at Dadfords Wharf - it`s 140 feet long and fronts onto Lock12 on the Stourbridge flight . We live there - three families - and run our businesses there . In the past 14 years we have had all the windows smashed times without number , cars and boats vandalized , fireworks thrown at our welders gas bottles- we`ve been catapulted , shot at and pelted with stones and abuse , plagued with mini-motos and full size illegal motorcycles on the towpath and often on the roads outside . Every summer evening a gang of up 20 hoodies gathers outside making a thorough nuisance of themselves and making some of the older residents in local houses too frightened to walk teir dogs at night. This is continuous and we have had hardly respite all the time we`ve been here.

The police have asked us to report every incident , and so we do , but if there is no obvious damage or injury all they do more often than not is make sympathetic noises. When they actually do come out to us the officers themselves are very much on our side but almost powerless to help us. So- last week , after a newly painted boat was damaged by thrown stones, I asked the policewoman onthe phone , who said there was no way she "could just conjure up an officer to come and see" me , what would happen if , at the end of our patience , we kicked the shit out of the little bastards . She said that I would immediately be arrested! "Who by?" I asked " since you can`t seem to find an officer to come and inspect the malicious damage to this boat we`ve spent 5 weeks painting?" "You would have broken the law " she said " we`d have somebody out there in no time" !

As it happens an officer did turn up - 42 hours after the event. He said he found the whole state of affairs extremely embarrassing . One of his colleagues , in a later phone call told me that the canal was very cold and wet at this time of year and the edge of the bank very slippery " what with the ice and everything - a kid could fall in really easily........."

Cheers

Phil

[magnetman]

I imagine your last quote was referring to the police force's unwillingness to send a bobby out. Its DANGEROUS out there.

[Teadaemon]

Both Laural and WarriorWoman have the right idea, and the one I was clumsily trying to disport. The Law enforcement agencies, (Police, Revenue&Customs, MOD etc) do welcome any Photographic/Video evidence of any law-breaking, mostly for identification of the wrong-doers so a case can be built against them. However, this evidence cannot be used solely for a conviction unless the guilty party is aware that they are being recorded. Which is why there are so many "Police Speed Camera" signs on the roadside. If you are caught speeding on a road where there is no sign within, I think, 1 mile, of the camera, then you can contest the legality of the photo evidence as you haven't been warned.

It is this principle which applies to other acts of illegallity caught on camera, which, I believe, stems from the 'Human Rights Act'.

 

I went into all this a few years ago when I managed to accrue 9 points in 3 weeks on my driving licence. The laws may have altered since then.

 

The human rights act has bugger all to do with it, and never has. If somebody is in a public place and a photograph is taken of them by another person, it can be used for any purpose whatsoever (apart from sexual gratification), with or without their knowledge or agreement. If it shows them committing a crime, then it can be used as evidence in court. I admit that other laws may apply if the picture is taken by a speed camera or CCTV system, or if they're not in a public place when it's taken, but none of those would apply in this case.

[fuzzyduck]

The human rights act has bugger all to do with it, and never has. If somebody is in a public place and a photograph is taken of them by another person, it can be used for any purpose whatsoever (apart from sexual gratification),

 

I wish you'd told me that, before I got the pic of Carl at Moley's birthday bash.

[bewilderbeast]

Situation for you:

 

A boat pulls up near you on visitor moorings. They let their kids run riot chucking ice at ducks, lobbing it off the bridges and chucking bricks in as well as leaving rubbish on the towpath?

 

Tell them off, or keep stum because of reprisals?

 

The same boat then leaves a few days later, but not before dumping rubbish in the towpath bushes. You know where they have moved to?

 

Do you take it back to them, or take it to the tip?

 

I had this the last two weekends and I am disgusted with some people's behaviour. If we had not moved the rubbish ourselves all the rest we have done over the last year when visiting sections of the Ashby, some parts of it would look like a tip. Why do people do it? Why not use a bin, or the tip or keep it until you can dispose of it properly? Do you think they look big and clever, it's not their problem?

 

Why should we have to get a bad name because of the few boaters (so called) decide to use the canals and towpaths as their personal rubbish disposal sites?

 

I am sick to the back teeth of low lives like this. Why not just take your crap with you, and let those of us who actually respect the environment that we are in enjoy it. Not hard is it?

 

Rant over!

 

 

 

Hello all.......this post made me so furious, or rather the all too familiar description of despicable diregard for environment, neighbours, and the social impotence to do anything impulsive about it because of fear of reprisal (which is totally and tragically justified) honestly some people are so arrogant in their ignorant and lazy minds.....grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!

Anyway, as tempting as it would be to make a device with which to pump out directly into their chimney, I agree with the comments about photos and calling the cops and most definitely passing on the photos to both the cops and BW. It seems it would be in everyone's interest to involve BW as it is they who will increase license fees to cover the damage caused by such behaviour... and I don't think there is anything to prevent either you or the legal system taking/using photos as evidence. Photographs of minors, (under 18's) carry restrictions for use either commercially or in a court of law, but the courts are able to waive these restrictions when appropriate (ie, the identification of a perpetrator of a crime).....I found these links:

 

http://www.peterboroughtoday.co.uk/fightth...-use.1768723.jp

 

http://www.sirimo.co.uk/media/UKPhotographersRights.pdf

[sueb]

Many of you will know our "Black Shed" at Dadfords Wharf - it`s 140 feet long and fronts onto Lock12 on the Stourbridge flight . We live there - three families - and run our businesses there . In the past 14 years we have had all the windows smashed times without number , cars and boats vandalized , fireworks thrown at our welders gas bottles- we`ve been catapulted , shot at and pelted with stones and abuse , plagued with mini-motos and full size illegal motorcycles on the towpath and often on the roads outside . Every summer evening a gang of up 20 hoodies gathers outside making a thorough nuisance of themselves and making some of the older residents in local houses too frightened to walk teir dogs at night. This is continuous and we have had hardly respite all the time we`ve been here.

The police have asked us to report every incident , and so we do , but if there is no obvious damage or injury all they do more often than not is make sympathetic noises. When they actually do come out to us the officers themselves are very much on our side but almost powerless to help us. So- last week , after a newly painted boat was damaged by thrown stones, I asked the policewoman onthe phone , who said there was no way she "could just conjure up an officer to come and see" me , what would happen if , at the end of our patience , we kicked the shit out of the little bastards . She said that I would immediately be arrested! "Who by?" I asked " since you can`t seem to find an officer to come and inspect the malicious damage to this boat we`ve spent 5 weeks painting?" "You would have broken the law " she said " we`d have somebody out there in no time" !

As it happens an officer did turn up - 42 hours after the event. He said he found the whole state of affairs extremely embarrassing . One of his colleagues , in a later phone call told me that the canal was very cold and wet at this time of year and the edge of the bank very slippery " what with the ice and everything - a kid could fall in really easily........."

Cheers

Phil

Sounds like a friend of our who was advised to get a large maglight and a big dog. Oh you light up the vandal? No was the reply, the dog can see in the dark.

Sue

[carlt]

I wish you'd told me that, before I got the pic of Carl at Moley's birthday bash. :D

As this is the first time anybody has admitted, in public, to using an image of me to take one off the wrist, it would seem churlish to deny permission.

[GRPCruiserman]

I shall definitely report it. I just need to take a walk down to where the little sod has moored up now. I think this one is a pro at dumping. He's no name on the boat, and the index number is inside the boat stuck in the window between a frame, so you can't see one number. Obviously doesn't like to be noticed. Is that legal?

 

Oh and we will definitely be moving on at the weekend. I can't stand people like that.

 

IF they have a licence displayed, then it'll have the name and index number on it? If they were on The Lancaster the warden would have spotted it on his daily patrol. Perhaps the warden scheme SHOULD operate everywhere.

[StoneHenge]

I wish it did cruiserman then we wouldn't have scum like that living on the canals.

[Phil Speight]

I imagine your last quote was referring to the police force's unwillingness to send a bobby out. Its DANGEROUS out there.

Actually he was suggesting that if a hoody fell into the water while one of us happened to be in his immediate vicinity - well , accidents do happen don`t they! Trouble is it actually is dangerously cold in the water in winter and we want to put them off not endanger their lives , so we`ll have to wait until it gets a bit warmer won`t we . Happily the youth who one of us hung over Dadford`s Bridge by his heels semed reluctant to report us afterwards.

Cheers

Phil

[Malarky]

At the risk of raising(?) the tone of this discussion I offer this snippet:-

Yellow

by: Robert W. Service

 

One pearly day in early May I walked upon the sand

And saw, say half a mile away, a man with gun in hand.

A dog was cowering to his will as slow he sought to creep

Upon a dozen ducks so still they seemed to be asleep.

 

When like a streak the dog dashed out, the ducks flashed up in flight.

The fellow gave a savage shout and cursed with all his might.

Then as I stood somewhat amazed and gazed with eyes agog,

With bitter rage his gun he raised and blazed and shot the dog.

 

You know how dogs can yelp with pain; its blood soaked in the sand,

And yet it crawled to him again, and tried to lick his hand.

"Forgive me Lord for what I've done," it seemed as if it said,

But once again he raised his gun -- this time he shot it dead.

 

What could I do? What could I say? 'Twas such a lonely place.

Tongue-tied I watched him stride away, I never saw his face.

I should have bawled the bastard out, a yellow dog he slew.

But worse, he proved beyond a doubt that - I was yellow too.

 

 

Nice one!

The yellow submarine.

"see Greene" so Sea Green it was!