Company In Administration

[Dominic M]

For further information here is the HMRC take on wrongful trading

 

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/manuals/insmanual/ins44321.htm

This is fine in theory, but in practice the cost of a law suit would be prohibitive for most people. Even if the plaintiff wins the costs awarded will not cover their true legal expenses, by a country mile usually. The people who should prosecute are the authorities, but I have never heard of them doing so.

[WJM]

"trading whilst knowingly insolvent IS fraud - that is company law"

 

 

 

You are absolutely correct - just try proving it in any meaningful way. Ay, there's the rub!

 

The intent of the law does not always mirror the realities of life. And given this legal 'grey-ness' my advice is never put yourself in a position where you need to test it. I think Pav is in agreement with this advice too. I see one of the major (low volume bespoke) boatbuilders now advertising that they will only take a deposit, with full payment on completion. That is the way business like this should be done. Perhaps buyers are beginning to wise up to this at last.

[mick1964]

This is fine in theory, but in practice the cost of a law suit would be prohibitive for most people. Even if the plaintiff wins the costs awarded will not cover their true legal expenses, by a country mile usually. The people who should prosecute are the authorities, but I have never heard of them doing so.

 

It is not difficult to issue a court claim - you can even do it online for claims up to £100,000.

 

Here are the fees

To issue a claim form where your claim is for money only and the amount is:

 

up to £300 £30

£300.01 – £500 - £45

£500.01 – £1,000 - £65

£1,000.01 – £1,500 - £75

£1,500.01 – £3,000 - £85

£3,000.01 – £5,000 - £108

£5,000.01 – £15,000 - £225

£15,000.01 – £50,000 - £360

£50,000.01 – £100,000 - £630

 

£630!!! I bet the curtains on the boat cost more than this.

 

I really don't understand why people do not stand up for themselves - It seems this company has traded insolvently, has got away with thousands of people's money - if it was my money I would have issued a claim straightaway and let the court decide whether he was trading insolvently. I accept that this is not always easy to prove but in this case he took the money only days before going into administration! Risking £500 quid or so has to be worth it.

 

Also you don't have t use a lawyer, you can do it yourself. The trouble is that whilst people are allowed to get away with it, then they will continue to do it. You can ask to see his bank accounts, and check where the money has been paid.

 

It must be worth at least a go - most solcitors offer half hour free advice anyway. Or give consumer direct a ring and ask them.

 

Mick

[FadeToScarlet]

I'm sure this has come up before, but have you considered contacting the media? Not so much Watchdog and the consumer rights programmes, more national newspapers, regional news, etc.? You never know, you might get the issue into the national news and shame / semi-blackmail the new company into doing something about it.

[Eastern]

It is not difficult to issue a court claim - you can even do it online for claims up to £100,000.

 

Here are the fees

To issue a claim form where your claim is for money only and the amount is:

 

up to £300 £30

£300.01 – £500 - £45

£500.01 – £1,000 - £65

£1,000.01 – £1,500 - £75

£1,500.01 – £3,000 - £85

£3,000.01 – £5,000 - £108

£5,000.01 – £15,000 - £225

£15,000.01 – £50,000 - £360

£50,000.01 – £100,000 - £630

 

£630!!! I bet the curtains on the boat cost more than this.

 

I really don't understand why people do not stand up for themselves - It seems this company has traded insolvently, has got away with thousands of people's money - if it was my money I would have issued a claim straightaway and let the court decide whether he was trading insolvently. I accept that this is not always easy to prove but in this case he took the money only days before going into administration! Risking £500 quid or so has to be worth it.

 

Also you don't have t use a lawyer, you can do it yourself. The trouble is that whilst people are allowed to get away with it, then they will continue to do it. You can ask to see his bank accounts, and check where the money has been paid.

 

It must be worth at least a go - most solcitors offer half hour free advice anyway. Or give consumer direct a ring and ask them.

 

Mick

 

A note of caution on bringing a case to court. You may win your case, but if the company does not have the assets to settle the claim its rather a hollow victory. And you still have to pay the court fees.

[Dominic M]

A note of caution on bringing a case to court. You may win your case, but if the company does not have the assets to settle the claim its rather a hollow victory. And you still have to pay the court fees.

I think you will find that the directors are personally liable in such instances.

 

The receivers ought to be able to determine whether or not the company continued to trade unlawfully, but they never seem to do it.

[Dr Bradley]

It is not the company who would be sued, it's the directors as individuals. If they can't settle then the small satisfaction of them going personaly bankrupt might be worthe £500.

[bargeeboy]

However, with the exception of only one or two companies, the boatbuilding industry are the party that needs to get its act together by offering a safe and/or protected method, to potential customers who would like to purchase a new build, but are scared sh*tless, when they hear about companies going under and leaving customers in the crap.

 

Regards,

Pav.

 

Try not to tar us all with any form of brush please.

 

Here at Narrowcraft we only require an initial payment of 10%.

 

This is more of an acceptance of your commitement to purchase the finished boat than a part or stage payment.

 

The balance is due when you have inspected the final product prior to PDI and signwritting.

 

If the boat is not to your specification or does not meet your approval then you get your initial payment back (Nobody has requested this though !).

 

PS craning Saturday midday if you want to come and see 2 of our latest boats. You can see it live on the cranecam from our website link

 

CraneCam

Edited April 4, 2008 by bargeeboy

[Dyad]

I see Pav's story has an articale in the Canal Boat magazine. An interesting turn of events.

What surprised me though - no mention of the help and advice received from the guys on here.

 

Still, all's well that ends well.

[churchward]

What surprised me though - no mention of the help and advice received from the guys on here.

 

Maybe not that surprising from one point of view. Pav may indeed have spoken about it but Magazines in general don't seem to like to acknowledge that forums like this are useful places especially if they have a site of their own they wish to promote.

[Tony Brooks]

Maybe not that surprising from one point of view. Pav may indeed have spoken about it but Magazines in general don't seem to like to acknowledge that forums like this are useful places especially if they have a site of their own they wish to promote.

 

 

Not quiet true - a quote from one of my recent replies

 

"I suggest you put the question on uk.rec.waterways (a news group) and Canal World Discussion Forum (Internet) where there are some very knowledgeable people."

[WJM]

"It is not the company who would be sued, it's the directors as individuals. If they can't settle then the small satisfaction of them going personaly bankrupt might be worthe £500."

 

 

When you do business with a company that is LIMITED they are telling you right up front, that their liability is limited. What it is limited to may not be entirely clear but it is usually limited to a point somewhere long before bankrupting the directors. It is not sneaky, you are told up front by the legal requirement to append the company name with 'Ltd.'

 

That is why entrusting a limited company large sums of money is foolish.

[churchward]

Not quiet true - a quote from one of my recent replies

 

"I suggest you put the question on uk.rec.waterways (a news group) and Canal World Discussion Forum (Internet) where there are some very knowledgeable people."

 

That is good to hear but my personal experience of other magazines (Not boat ones) is that they have been reluctant to acknowledge a forums contributions. I did say "in general" so my comment was not specifcally aimed at Canal Boat and happy that in your specific case you do make such a recommendation.

 

With so many magazines for so many subjects of course it is always possible to find an example of it being done differently. For example I can think of one Railway modelling magazine that did an interview style article on the owner/adminstrator of one large modelling forum.

[ditchcrawler]

Try not to tar us all with any form of brush please.

 

Here at Narrowcraft we only require an initial payment of 10%.

 

This is more of an acceptance of your commitement to purchase the finished boat than a part or stage payment.

 

The balance is due when you have inspected the final product prior to PDI and signwritting.

That's the way it went when we bought our hull, I paid I think £1000 up front and paid the balance in my front room when the hull was delivered to Suffolk for me to fit out. The builder even drove from Stone to Suffolk to make sure every thing was OK and supervise the unloading.

[US Marines]

"When you do business with a company that is LIMITED they are telling you right up front, that their liability is limited. What it is limited to may not be entirely clear but it is usually limited to a point somewhere long before bankrupting the directors. It is not sneaky, you are told up front by the legal requirement to append the company name with 'Ltd.'

 

You are right in that, in most instances, it is the company that is 'liable' and the Directors of the company would normally be protected - indeed, the "Limited" in Limited Company means "limited liability".

 

However, this protection only operates if the rules and regulations governing the operation of a limited liability company have been followed.

 

In situations where these rules have been broken - such as fraudulent trading by Directors, for example - there is no limited liability and the Directors can be sued personally....

Edited October 7, 2008 by US Marines

[Pav]

I see Pav's story has an articale in the Canal Boat magazine. An interesting turn of events.

What surprised me though - no mention of the help and advice received from the guys on here.

 

Still, all's well that ends well.

 

Hi Everyone,

I picked up a copy of the Canal Boat Magazine today and read through the article on Marmaduke. I am sorry that no mention was made in the article about all the help, advice and encouragement which I received from CWF members. Those of you who followed our plight at the time know only to well how grateful Cathy and I were for all of the support which we were given, and we still are.

 

The article did not contain all of what Cathy and I, along with our surveyor Tom Keeling said at the time. I suppose it’s just down to the constraint of how much could be written.

 

Cathy and I are very happy with Marmaduke. We just wished that we had not had to go through such a horrible experience in order to own a narrowboat.

 

Still as said, alls well that ends well.

 

Regards,

Pav.