Electric Boat Event

[Graham and Jo]

http://electrika.uk/

 

It's on 3rd to 4th May. Trade on the 3rd, rabble on the 4th. Cheers Graham 

[BoatinglifeupNorth]

Hopefully it’ll be sunny that week, so the solar is working and topped up. Last thing they would want is rain and all the electric boats running their generators. Maybe they’ll be installing electric Bollards for the event?

[mrsmelly]

7 minutes ago, BoatinglifeupNorth said:

Hopefully it’ll be sunny that week, so the solar is working and topped up. Last thing they would want is rain and all the electric boats running their generators. Maybe they’ll be installing electric Bollards for the event?

The diesel gennie will still make it work 😉

[BoatinglifeupNorth]

6 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

The diesel gennie will still make it work 😉

Yes, I bet the Eco Boat sellers are praying for Sun Sun Sun, so to dispel the myth that you still need a diesel generator on an all electric boat to make it work 😂🌞🌞

Edited March 12 by BoatinglifeupNorth

[IanD]

21 minutes ago, BoatinglifeupNorth said:

Yes, I bet the Eco Boat sellers are praying for Sun Sun Sun, so to dispel the myth that you still need a diesel generator on an all electric boat to make it work 😂🌞🌞

Myth? 😉 

 

I'm surprised they didn't push the date back to the middle of summer then...

[Graham and Jo]

The diesel engine is in your butty so you can say you are an electric motor boat. I do the same towing a generator in a trailer with my electric car. 

 

More seriously, I am interested in what is going on with electric boats but it is the same weekend as the IWA cavalcade. 

 

Cheers Graham 

[BoatinglifeupNorth]

7 hours ago, IanD said:

Myth? 😉 

 

I'm surprised they didn't push the date back to the middle of summer then...

Myth😂 reality really as you know to have a good quality of life onboard you need a big diesel generator as well as sufficient solar.

 I wouldn’t call this an electric boat event gathering,  but more like an Ortomarine open day, as I don’t see any other electric Narrowboat builders participating and having any involvement and there’s  builders out there making significant advances in electric boat design.

 In all honesty if I was after an electric Narrowboat I would rather ask you for your advice and ideas. Even though I may not choose your builder due to the financial budget. But I know you’re carried out thorough research to what works. Even though you go on a bit, I would rather buy you a couple of beers and have an informative chat, then waste my money on tickets for this🍻👍

Edited March 13 by BoatinglifeupNorth

[Tony Brooks]

11 hours ago, BoatinglifeupNorth said:

Myth😂 reality really as you know to have a good quality of life onboard you need a big diesel generator as well as sufficient solar.

 I wouldn’t call this an electric boat event gathering,  but more like an Ortomarine open day, as I don’t see any other electric Narrowboat builders participating and having any involvement and there’s  builders out there making significant advances in electric boat design.

 In all honesty if I was after an electric Narrowboat I would rather ask you for your advice and ideas. Even though I may not choose your builder due to the financial budget. But I know you’re carried out thorough research to what works. Even though you go on a bit, I would rather buy you a couple of beers and have an informative chat, then waste my money on tickets for this🍻👍

 

This, I fully agree. Especially in view of all the marketing bullshine, half-truths and lies that see, endemic in certain sectors of that industry.

[IanD]

48 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

This, I fully agree. Especially in view of all the marketing bullshine, half-truths and lies that see, endemic in certain sectors of that industry.

 

There is definitely a lot of over-optimistic "green woo-woo" from some "electric boat" suppliers, though it needs to be made clear that (in my opinion) Ortomarine isn't one of them -- the trials that they ran (and published for free!) comparing diesel and hybrid boat performance/efficiency is by far the most open and honest information around, and is an essential read for anyone considering going down the hybrid/electric boat path.

 

https://www.ortomarine.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2021/10/Ortomarine-Narrowboat-Trial-Final-Report.pdf

 

Like Finesse they have built a lot of hybrid boats and have presumably also collected a lot of data from them, so they're not just operating on guesswork. The best way to end up with a solid reliable product is to make them and get them out into the field and find out what works and what doesn't, so you can improve your design, and this is especially true with new things like hybrid narrowboats.

 

I believe Ortomarine's approach is different to Finesse but equally valid; one (Ortomarine) looks to have tried out a lot of different drive system/component suppliers, and uses their own fully custom control system and hardware/software to control it; the other (Finesse) uses mostly standard but best-in-class components (especially the motor) including Victron control hardware and software, with a single preferred configuration and the emphasis on everything being maintainable/upgradeable/replaceable in future by anyone with the appropriate skills.

 

Ortomarine's approach provides a very slick system completely optimised for the purpose, but like anything full-custom does depend on them for support/maintenance, and I can see possible issues with this in the long-term. Finesse's approach is less precisely targeted at narrowboats since it's built on (mostly!) standard hardware and software, but this also means there are a lot of other people who understand how this works and can fix it if it goes wrong, and there's a long-term path using new hardware and software as it emerges -- and this can easily be added/changed by the user. One example is that there's a big new upgrade coming to the Victron GUI (Graphical User Interface) to make it look better and be easier to use, but this will be rolled out to (and debugged by!) thousands of users instead of depending on a few boaters.

 

As an engineer I decided to go with Finesse and have not regretted it, but then I understand (and am interested in!) all the technology involved and like their top priority of "it all needs to be fixable in the long-term" -- even if Finesse goes tits-up, which was one of the early discussions I had with Ricky. I also think they have the best direct-drive motor solution -- lower rpm and higher torque -- than the off-the-shelf ones from suppliers like Bellmarine and Vetus and various others, all of who I looked at in detail, and this was one big reason for going with them -- but most narrowboat buyers are likely to be unaware of this or wouldn't really care anyway, and for them the Ortomarine solution looks (and is!) very attractive and well thought-out.

 

There are other emerging "electric boat" (meaning hybrid, usually...) suppliers but I wouldn't put them at the same level as Ortomarine and Finesse who are completely focussed on hybrid boats, they simply don't have the experience and a lot of them cut corners to try and reduce the costs, and there is definitely a certain amount of dishonesty with some about the realities of electric/hybrid boats... 😉 

Edited March 13 by IanD

[Hudds Lad]

1 hour ago, IanD said:

There are other emerging "electric boat" (meaning hybrid, usually...) suppliers but I wouldn't put them at the same level as Ortomarine and Finesse who are completely focussed on hybrid boats, they simply don't have the experience and a lot of them cut corners to try and reduce the costs, and there is definitely a certain amount of dishonesty with some about the realities of electric/hybrid boats... 😉

Reminds me of a certain boat launched last year at Crick which has, as far as i recall, had a new battery, software upgrades for iffy controller, new generator, new motor, new prop, and at one point they mentioned having used about three times more diesel in the same period than when a traditionally propelled boat (to be fair it has diesel heating too).

This is no doubt fine if you don't mind being a beta tester for the builder and can afford the time laid up whilst work is done to rectify.

[IanD]

1 minute ago, Hudds Lad said:

Reminds me of a certain boat launched last year at Crick which has, as far as i recall, had a new battery, software upgrades for iffy controller, new generator, new motor, new prop, and at one point they mentioned having used about three times more diesel in the same period than when a traditionally propelled boat (to be fair it has diesel heating too).

This is no doubt fine if you don't mind being a beta tester for the builder and can afford the time laid up whilst work is done to rectify.

 

And that assumes that rectification is possible without a wholesale rip-out-and-redo of a system that was basically flawed in the first place...

[David Mack]

I was a little surprised to see this event targeted very specifically at the narrow boat market. I assume that developments in electric/hybrid boats are happening across all types of boating, and I would have thought that it would benefit all concerned to share knowledge and experience across the wider market rather than developing a niche activity.

[IanD]

3 minutes ago, David Mack said:

I was a little surprised to see this event targeted very specifically at the narrow boat market. I assume that developments in electric/hybrid boats are happening across all types of boating, and I would have thought that it would benefit all concerned to share knowledge and experience across the wider market rather than developing a niche activity.

From one point of view I'd agree -- but then the propulsion requirements (and build issues) of an electric/hybrid narrowboat are rather different to (much more common) lumpy water boats in many respects, and what is good for one is not so good for the other. In a combined show -- like any other boat show -- I would expect narrowboats and their suppliers to be very much in a minority compared to yotties, a specialised event like this doesn't have that problem.

 

Having seen some of the suppliers attending who I've looked into in detail in the past and been unimpressed to say the least, anyone attending might benefit from a sceptical attitude to some of the "experts" claims... 😉 

 

(but probably not Ortomarine...)

[BoatinglifeupNorth]

 

18 minutes ago, David Mack said:

I was a little surprised to see this event targeted very specifically at the narrow boat market. I assume that developments in electric/hybrid boats are happening across all types of boating, and I would have thought that it would benefit all concerned to share knowledge and experience across the wider market rather than developing a niche activity.

As I said this looks more like an open day event, anyone seriously interested in buying an electric boat would be better off just going to Crick, where these people will be attendance along with more electric boat manufacturers, so more information available on the subject from a wider field.

Edited March 13 by BoatinglifeupNorth

[IanD]

12 minutes ago, BoatinglifeupNorth said:

 

As I said this looks more like an open day event, anyone seriously interested in buying an electric boat would be better off just going to Crick, where these people will be attendance along with more electric boat manufacturers, so more information available on the subject from a wider field.

 

Agreed - but IIRC Finesse weren't going to Crick this year because of the cost and effort, and they have a full order book and were too busy building boats... 😉 

 

(but of course they're not at Elektrika either)

Edited March 13 by IanD

[Napton]

21 hours ago, Hudds Lad said:

Reminds me of a certain boat launched last year at Crick which has, as far as i recall, had a new battery, software upgrades for iffy controller, new generator, new motor, new prop, and at one point they mentioned having used about three times more diesel in the same period than when a traditionally propelled boat (to be fair it has diesel heating too).

This is no doubt fine if you don't mind being a beta tester for the builder and can afford the time laid up whilst work is done to rectify.

This boat has, according to the vloggers who own it, had lithium batteries changed, new larger inverter, 3 generators, larger prop and complete new motor installed all in the first ten months of its life! It has used multiple times more diesel than a diesel engined boat, even during the summer when the diesel stove wasn’t being used, according to the bright green boat’s owners. A prime example of a boat fitter jumping into technology about which they’ve done little research and more worryingly, have little understanding. 

[BoatinglifeupNorth]

1 hour ago, Napton said:

This boat has, according to the vloggers who own it, had lithium batteries changed, new larger inverter, 3 generators, larger prop and complete new motor installed all in the first ten months of its life! It has used multiple times more diesel than a diesel engined boat, even during the summer when the diesel stove wasn’t being used, according to the bright green boat’s owners. A prime example of a boat fitter jumping into technology about which they’ve done little research and more worryingly, have little understanding. 

Or a prime example of the boat owners picking the wrong type of boat to live on full time and continuous cruise?

 There’s a couple on Instagram, telling everyone they’re full time livaboards on their all electric boat, unfortunately they don’t understand that leaving the boat the beginning of November, putting it in a Marina and going home to return in April isn’t being full time livaboards continuous cruising.

Edited March 14 by BoatinglifeupNorth

[IanD]

1 hour ago, Napton said:

This boat has, according to the vloggers who own it, had lithium batteries changed, new larger inverter, 3 generators, larger prop and complete new motor installed all in the first ten months of its life! It has used multiple times more diesel than a diesel engined boat, even during the summer when the diesel stove wasn’t being used, according to the bright green boat’s owners. A prime example of a boat fitter jumping into technology about which they’ve done little research and more worryingly, have little understanding. 

 

The problem is that the design features and tradeoffs and gotchas for a (more complex) hybrid/electric boat are quite different to a (simpler) diesel one -- the fact that most builders/installers understand how to make diesel boats work well hides that fact that there were many in the past which didn't, but the industry (mostly) learned from its mistakes -- and that's what's going on today with hybrid boats.

 

Some of the things that you can get away with on a diesel -- badly matched engine/gearbox/prop, feeble/inefficient/badly designed electrical system, poor charging/battery management, poor hull design -- show up as much more obvious faults to the end user in a hybrid boat, because they matter more (less power to throw away) and have a bigger effect (higher power use/shorter range) or affect fundamental operation (the electrics!), so sloppy design/build comes back to bite you.

 

I'm sure that another cause of problems is the " 'ow much?!?! " syndrome -- top-quality components to build such a boat (motor, generator, lithium batteries, controller, inverter/charger...) are pretty expensive, so many builders try to reduce costs and cut corners, and don't put the time and effort in to get everything debugged and working properly (or don't understand how to do this) -- the end result is a problematic boat.

 

You could also partly blame customers who are more focused on expensive internal fittings and appearance and "woo-hoo, let's go green and fossil-fuel-free" but don't understand the real benefits of spending more on the engineering that underpins all this, so even if offered cheaper vs. more expensive components they'll choose the cheaper ones and spend the money saved on things like kitchen worktops/appliances and internal bling -- which has always been so, but you could get away with it on diesel boats... 😉 

 

So it's not entirely the fault of the builders -- though they certainly bear a lot of the blame in some cases! -- because they're supplying what a lot of (non-engineer) customers want, a nice-looking boat with green credentials at a kind-of-affordable price. It's a bit like people buying cars which look good and are very well-equipped and cheap for what they are, but underneath (where they can't see) are penny-pinched and unreliable... 😞 

Edited March 14 by IanD

[BoatinglifeupNorth]

I wonder if they regret getting rid of their diesel boat for the electric, as on one Vlog they say they just can’t keep putting in over 200lts of diesel in every fortnight. 
 Obviously this highlights the limitations of an electric boat for CCing most of the year.

 I wonder if they had a saving on the price to promote the boat on their Social Media platforms by the builder Oakhams, as they have a good following and we all know Bickerstaffe did well out of giving “Foxes afloat” a boat to use.

 It’s a shame they’re having issues with what should be a pleasant relaxing time for them as they come across as decent guys and are far more likeable then most Vloggers. 

Edited March 14 by BoatinglifeupNorth

[IanD]

2 hours ago, BoatinglifeupNorth said:

I wonder if they regret getting rid of their diesel boat for the electric, as on one Vlog they say they just can’t keep putting in over 200lts of diesel in every fortnight. 
 Obviously this highlights the limitations of an electric boat for CCing most of the year.

 I wonder if they had a saving on the price to promote the boat on their Social Media platforms by the builder Oakhams, as they have a good following and we all know Bickerstaffe did well out of giving “Foxes afloat” a boat to use.

 It’s a shame they’re having issues with what should be a pleasant relaxing time for them as they come across as decent guys and are far more likeable then most Vloggers. 

What on earth are they doing to use more than 100l of diesel per week, assuming they're not cruising all day every day with the diesel heating on 24/7?

Edited March 14 by IanD

[Hudds Lad]

9 minutes ago, IanD said:

What on earth are they doing to use more than 100l of diesel per week, assuming they're not cruising all day every day with the heating on 24/7?

Running every electrical gadget onboard like it's a house combined with a generator that seemed to run for fun

[IanD]

3 minutes ago, Hudds Lad said:

Running every electrical gadget onboard like it's a house combined with a generator that seemed to run for fun

Not convinced about the gadgets, most of them use a lot less energy than either propulsion or heating -- even the things that use a lot of power when on (kettle, toaster, induction hob, electric oven) aren't on for very long, they shouldn't add up to more than a few kWh per day. Running a full wash/dry cycle on the washer/drier also took about 3kWh. So maybe all that together (with a wash/dry every day!) needs about 1h per day of generator running (6kWh) if there's no solar, which would burn about 2.5l of diesel.

In comparison I reckon a full day of normal cruising -- allowing for locks and moored boats -- typically uses 15kWh, which is several times more than "gadgets", and would need about 6l of diesel for the generator -- again, ignoring solar, which is only a couple of kWh/day typical at this time of year.

 

The biggest fuel use in winter would be heating; mine uses about 2l/hour when the CH boiler is on but this puts out 14kW (it runs in bursts), so in winter I'd expect this to be the biggest fuel user. But if you don't burn diesel you have to burn something else, and smokeless fuel isn't much cheaper -- if at all -- given how much heat goes up the flue from a stove.

[BoatinglifeupNorth]

57 minutes ago, IanD said:

What on earth are they doing to use more than 100l of diesel per week, assuming they're not cruising all day every day with the diesel heating on 24/7?

Sorry my mistake just re watched the Vlog 217Lts 3-4 weeks. 
 Their boats seems to have had a lot of problems and new equipment fitted. Have a view, it doesn’t paint the best picture for electric boats:

https://youtube.com/@NarrowboatLifeUnlocked?si=Ks1s38yQoJIN0z8y

Edited March 14 by BoatinglifeupNorth

[IanD]

22 hours ago, BoatinglifeupNorth said:

Sorry my mistake just re watched the Vlog 217Lts 3-4 weeks. 
 Their boats seems to have had a lot of problems and new equipment fitted. Have a view, it doesn’t paint the best picture for electric boats:

https://youtube.com/@NarrowboatLifeUnlocked?si=Ks1s38yQoJIN0z8y

Too many videos with too little actual content...

 

Not impressed with the whining and prop noise their setup makes when cruising along though -- I suspect that even their new Engiro motor has too little torque at too high rpm and an eggwhisk prop...

 

(because the higher torque/lower speed ones cost more...)

 

Don't see how they're going to make use of a 14kVA generator either, they said they've got a Quattro 48/8000/110 which can only charge batteries at 110A which is about 6kW -- and going by mine (48/10000/140) I'm sure this will drop as it heats up if you run it for long periods of time.

[Andyaero]

On 14/03/2024 at 11:51, BoatinglifeupNorth said:

I wonder if they regret getting rid of their diesel boat for the electric, as on one Vlog they say they just can’t keep putting in over 200lts of diesel in every fortnight. 
 Obviously this highlights the limitations of an electric boat for CCing most of the year.

 I wonder if they had a saving on the price to promote the boat on their Social Media platforms by the builder Oakhams, as they have a good following and we all know Bickerstaffe did well out of giving “Foxes afloat” a boat to use.

 It’s a shame they’re having issues with what should be a pleasant relaxing time for them as they come across as decent guys and are far more likeable then most Vloggers. 

There is a recent vlog, I think it maybe the one where the taller one, the artist/magician ( I forget their names), is filling with another 200+ litres, states that with hindsight they maybe shouldn't have gone electric. Surprised Oakums didn't ask them to edit that out considering they apparently made them an offer they couldn't refuse on this boat build.

I'm also surprised they haven't burnt out the bow thruster yet,  as the shorter one, who does most of the driving, uses it as his sole method of manouevre.