Tidal Thames.

[magnetman]

On 24/02/2024 at 22:01, cheesegas said:

That’s really really crap. My favourite time to go from Limehouse to teddington is 6am on a Sunday in summer. Nice empty river, you beat most of the Clippers as they start at just past 7am, really peaceful. 

 

 

I just went through the online booking process and was able to book 0600 on Sunday 31st March. Now I am not sure of the tides but at least it gives all day which helps.

 

See what happens I imagine they may correct it. 

[Scholar Gypsy]

14 minutes ago, magnetman said:

 

 

I just went through the online booking process and was able to book 0600 on Sunday 31st March. Now I am not sure of the tides but at least it gives all day which helps.

 

See what happens I imagine they may correct it. 

That is an error.  High Water London Bridge is 0600 (BST) that day, so you would be punching the tide all the way to Teddington (Brentford would shut at 0900, and you won't get there in time).  The website offers a slot between 0200 and 0600 - which as I say is an error -  and you would want to leave at about 0300. 

I would suggest using the afternoon tide, and leaving Limehouse at about 1500. HWLB is 1815. That should enable you to go to Brentford (shuts 1900) or Teddington (open 24/7).
 

[magnetman]

I'm going to Teddington and don't particularly mind taking all day. 

 

I did think it was an error just wondering if they are that clueless that they would let Boats out at completely the wrong time. 

 

If that is the case then a representation needs to be made to the PLA about it. 

 

 

 

 

Is this a concerted effort to put people off using Limehouse or is it just incompetence? 

 

I always look for patterns. Coming the other way I can see the rather uncomfortable waiting pontoons becoming popular. 

 

If I change to the afternoon tide I don't think they will give me 1500. I believe their system is geared to offer HWLB as the exit time which everyone knows is wrong.

 

 

[Scholar Gypsy]

3 minutes ago, magnetman said:

I'm going to Teddington and don't particularly mind taking all day. 

 

I did think it was an error just wondering if they are that clueless that they would let Boats out at completely the wrong time. 

 

If that is the case then a representation needs to be made to the PLA about it. 

 

 

 

 

Is this a concerted effort to put people off using Limehouse or is it just incompetence? 

 

I always look for patterns. Coming the other way I can see the rather uncomfortable waiting pontoons becoming popular. 

 

If I change to the afternoon tide I don't think they will give me 1500. I believe their system is geared to offer HWLB as the exit time which everyone knows is wrong.

 

 

I think you may end up going backwards at Blackfriars. Anyway there is no chance of anyone being there at 0600 to  operate the lock!

In the afternoon the website currently offers you 1418-1818, which is correct. Departing 1430-1500 would be fine.

I have been discussing the issue with the PLA, most recently at their open meeting in Putney on Monday.  

I do think skippers need to understand the tides, and do their own passage planning. 

Finally, this page still needs some work (and CRT have asked for my help with it):  https://canalrivertrust.org.uk/about-us/where-we-work/london-and-south-east/boating-information/boating-facilities/locks-to-the-river-thames

[magnetman]

By all day I meant turning left first. 

 

My Boat isn't a canal Boat although nor is it fast at 6 knots. 

 

I'll try altering it to the afternoon and see what the website says. 

ETA I have done the passage before in a variety of different Boats but not with this new tinpot booking system. Back in the day one just went in the lock orifice and got details into their book. 

 

They even used pens and paper !!

 

 

ETA changed it to the afternoon tide and it is now saying 1818. 

 

Their computer is calculating the exit time as HWLB rather than HWLB -3.5hrs. 

 

There does not appear to be an option to choose exit time. 

 

All that needs to be done is the computer needs to be set to the beginning of the opening window for exit inward bound. 

 

 

There is no specific detail about whether one is inward bound or outward bound. 

 

It just says out onto Thames or In off Thames. 

 

Whoever devised this does not understand how this system is supposed to operate. 

 

Virtually all vessels with CRT licence leaving LH will be moving inward bound for BFD or TEDD.

 

If this basic factor is not understood then there will be problems. 

 

Am I missing something ? 

 

 

 

[Paringa]

I haven't needed to use the online booking as yet and just had a look...hmmm.

 

We used to do Teddington to Limehouse in one but because of the 4 hour tidal window for Limehouse lock, we now split the trip over two days and stop overnight at Chiswick pier. The overnight stop allows us to have the ebb tide working fully for us both times.

 

I would still call the lock office (I presume that is still an option?) a couple of days before to confirm they have my booking, confirm my arrival time and see if they have a place on the wall for me, although i think that is becoming less of an option. Staying on the wall for a few nights on our barge was a cheap alternative compared to the marina moorings or indeed other marinas.

 

I will follow my passage plan according to the tides and timings for my barge regardless of what the bookings computer says, if that is an issue i won't bother...shame, as it is a great trip and we liked Limehouse.

 

Let us know how you get on Mr Magnet if you are the first to use the new system.

[magnetman]

6 minutes ago, Paringa said:

 

I would still call the lock office (I presume that is still an option?) a couple of days before to confirm they have my booking, confirm my arrival time and see if they have a place on the wall for me, although i think that is becoming less of an option. Staying on the wall for a few nights on our barge was a cheap alternative compared to the marina moorings or indeed other marinas.

 

I will follow my passage plan according to the tides and timings for my barge regardless of what the bookings computer says, if that is an issue i won't bother...shame, as it is a great trip and we liked Limehouse.

 

Let us know how you get on Mr Magnet if you are the first to use the new system.

 

Hi. I hope all is well aboard the good ship Paringa. 

 

The lock office is no longer owned* by the CRT. It was transferred to Aquavista and is now a lounge and office. No VHF radios. no lock keepers. 

 

So things have changed a little. 

 

I rebooked for the 1800 and will at some point call the Docklands office by the blue lift bridge and point out that I need to be out at about 1500.

 

Not against a cruise down and back up but I may have a narrow Boat coming as well en route to Teddington and they will be interested in minimising time spent on the River. 

 

I, on the other hand, like maximising time spent on the River. 

 

*they may still own but have leased it. It is no longer a lock keepers control and monitoring building. Previously one could go in there and book a passage but that is no longer the case. It appears to be a callout job for someone to operate the lock.

 

 

 

Edited March 8 by magnetman

[Scholar Gypsy]

3 hours ago, magnetman said:

By all day I meant turning left first. 

 

My Boat isn't a canal Boat although nor is it fast at 6 knots. 

 

I'll try altering it to the afternoon and see what the website says. 

ETA I have done the passage before in a variety of different Boats but not with this new tinpot booking system. Back in the day one just went in the lock orifice and got details into their book. 

 

They even used pens and paper !!

 

 

ETA changed it to the afternoon tide and it is now saying 1818. 

 

Their computer is calculating the exit time as HWLB rather than HWLB -3.5hrs. 

 

There does not appear to be an option to choose exit time. 

 

All that needs to be done is the computer needs to be set to the beginning of the opening window for exit inward bound. 

 

 

There is no specific detail about whether one is inward bound or outward bound. 

 

It just says out onto Thames or In off Thames. 

 

Whoever devised this does not understand how this system is supposed to operate. 

 

Virtually all vessels with CRT licence leaving LH will be moving inward bound for BFD or TEDD.

 

If this basic factor is not understood then there will be problems. 

 

Am I missing something ? 

 

 

 

I agree. CRT accept that the slots currently offered on the website are not workable.  My current proposal to them (as set out in my spreadsheet posted above on an earlier comment) is that the website should offer up to four slots on any give high tide (they may not all be available, or they may be truncated, eg at start or end of the day when the 0700-1900 operating window will get in the way). As at Brentford, the lock operator should be there throughout the slot, until all the booked boats have been sorted.

 

A: HW-4 to HW-90 mins, departing Limehouse for a trip upriver. Most people will (like you) want to depart towards the start of the window

B1: HW-90 mins to HW+90 mins: departing Limehouse, probably for a trip downriver to the Estuary

B2: HW-90 to HE+90: arriving Limehouse, probably from the Estuary

C ;  HW+90 mins to HW+40 hours, arriving Limehouse, from upriver. 

[magnetman]

14 minutes ago, Scholar Gypsy said:

I agree. CRT accept that the slots currently offered on the website are not workable.  My current proposal to them (as set out in my spreadsheet posted above on an earlier comment) is that the website should offer up to four slots on any give high tide (they may not all be available, or they may be truncated, eg at start or end of the day when the 0700-1900 operating window will get in the way). As at Brentford, the lock operator should be there throughout the slot, until all the booked boats have been sorted.

 

A: HW-4 to HW-90 mins, departing Limehouse for a trip upriver. Most people will (like you) want to depart towards the start of the window

B1: HW-90 mins to HW+90 mins: departing Limehouse, probably for a trip downriver to the Estuary

B2: HW-90 to HE+90: arriving Limehouse, probably from the Estuary

C ;  HW+90 mins to HW+40 hours, arriving Limehouse, from upriver. 

 

 

Sounds good. 

 

One thing that may not have been taken into account is that this is a CRT licence holder booking system. I don't think they allow anyone without a CRT licence to book as there are no visitor moorings any more. 

 

So the topic has widened. 

 

One can get a 30 day explorer licence and the days do not need to be consecutive so that is interesting for people wanting to visit and moor on the towpath. 

 

The wall is interesting. I think it is a CRT asset but implication is it is Aquavista. 

 

Its going to be dangerous if the CRT start passing canal Boats at the wrong times. Something bad is going to happen. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Its worth bearing in mind also that people turning right with a CRT licence on their Boat may be less experienced in tidal waters than those turning left. Not a universal rule but I think the booking system it going inward for TEDD or BFD should be biased towards the earlier departure times and allow people with more organised passage plans to do their thing on the day. 

 

Lock keeper needs to be there but I am unsure as to whether there is a messing room available. 

[Scholar Gypsy]

After further discussion, CRT will be modifying/upgrading the website to offer the following slots around each HW (subject to the opening hours)
 

A – “outbound upstream (early)”                         HW-4 to HW-2.5 hours

B -  “outbound upstream (late)”                           HW-2.5 to HW – 1 hours

C1 – “HW outbound”                                HW-1 to HW+1

C2 – “ HW inbound”                                   HW-1 to HW+1

D  - “inbound from upstream (early)”                  HW+1 to HW+2.5

E – “inbound from upstream (late)”                     HW+2.5 to HW+4

 

So if I was going from L to T, I would book slot A, to Brentford I might take B, and to or from South Dock C. Coming downriver from T or B I would book slot E unless on a speedy boat!
 

The Trust are also keen to add some words to the website to help boaters with preparation and passage planning. I have started to think about that - bullet points (not paragraphs of prose please!) would be welcome.

[David Mack]

What are the opening hours? And will there be shorter slots if the listed time windows fall partly within and partly outside opening hours?

[Scholar Gypsy]

5 minutes ago, David Mack said:

What are the opening hours? And will there be shorter slots if the listed time windows fall partly within and partly outside opening hours?

Opening hours are 0700-1900 most of the year, and 0800-1600 November 1st to March 1st. Yes, the slots will be truncated.  I have just upgraded my spreadsheet to cope with five slots.  This is at least a start for those who want to do some passage planning.... Available for download here....

Book1.xlsx

[magnetman]

15 hours ago, Scholar Gypsy said:

After further discussion, CRT will be modifying/upgrading the website to offer the following slots around each HW (subject to the opening hours)
 

A – “outbound upstream (early)”                         HW-4 to HW-2.5 hours

B -  “outbound upstream (late)”                           HW-2.5 to HW – 1 hours

C1 – “HW outbound”                                HW-1 to HW+1

C2 – “ HW inbound”                                   HW-1 to HW+1

D  - “inbound from upstream (early)”                  HW+1 to HW+2.5

E – “inbound from upstream (late)”                     HW+2.5 to HW+4

 

So if I was going from L to T, I would book slot A, to Brentford I might take B, and to or from South Dock C. Coming downriver from T or B I would book slot E unless on a speedy boat!
 

The Trust are also keen to add some words to the website to help boaters with preparation and passage planning. I have started to think about that - bullet points (not paragraphs of prose please!) would be welcome.

 

 

I think using the terms inbound and outbound to describe the lock transit itself could cause some confusion. 

 

On the tideway the terms inward bound and outward bound are used to describe direction of travel. Upstream and downstream don't work because the steam could be going either way. Inward bound you are going into the land away from the sea regardless of stream direction. If one were to use the word 'upstream' someone is liable to follow the direction of the water. 

 

 

I would use entry and exit to describe the lock transit. 

 

Most inland boaters think of upstream and downstream so its alright to use those but I personally think using inbound and outbound adds a bit of confusion..

 

 

 

 

Edited March 9 by magnetman

[Scholar Gypsy]

1 hour ago, magnetman said:

 

 

I think using the terms inbound and outbound to describe the lock transit itself could cause some confusion. 

 

On the tideway the terms inward bound and outward bound are used to describe direction of travel. Upstream and downstream don't work because the steam could be going either way. Inward bound you are going into the land away from the sea regardless of stream direction. If one were to use the word 'upstream' someone is liable to follow the direction of the water. 

 

 

I would use entry and exit to describe the lock transit. 

 

Most inland boaters think of upstream and downstream so its alright to use those but I personally think using inbound and outbound adds a bit of confusion..

 

 

 

 

Thanks, that is helpful. I'm obviously getting a bit too close to this!  I decided against entry/exit, for some reason I now cannot remember,

An alternative is to follow the approach used at Thames Lock Brentford , which offers four options: to/from Teddington, and to/from Limehouse.  So that would make six options. This works for most users I think: someone going to say Chiswick Pier, or to Gravesend, will need to use common sense. A narrowboater going from L to B would need to select "To Brentford" when booking at Limehouse and "From Limehouse" at Brentford.
 

A To Brentford/Teddington (early)

B To Brentford/Teddington (late)

C1 HW to Estuary

C2 HW from Estuary

D From Teddington/Brentford (early)

E  From Teddington/Brentford (late)

[magnetman]

That would be good. 

 

 

Maybe entry and exit could be confused with the simple act of going in and out of the lock. 

[Scholar Gypsy]

1 minute ago, magnetman said:

That would be good. 

 

 

Maybe entry and exit could be confused with the simple act of going in and out of the lock. 

Yes, you have reminded me!  When I explain our passage plan at the briefing before a SPCC tideway cruise, I explain that when it says "Limehouse 0800" that is the time when you exit the lock and go under the Narrow St bridge. Not when you enter the lock. Not when you cast off from your mooring. Not when you put your coffee down and look for that last lifejacket. 

I will flag this with CRT's developer, I am just checking that the wording is easy to change later on, it's getting the underlying logic right that is the tricky bit.

[magnetman]

In to Brentford.

In to Teddington.

 

From Brentford. 

From Teddington.

 

I still think with it being CRT licence holders only there will be quite a lot fewer movements outward bound. It seems that other than the visitor licence and mooring on the wall (no services) there will not be visitors like there used to be in summer. 

 

 

 

On the face of it there does not appear to be an option to book a passage for a Boat which does not have a CRT licence. In that respect it is similar to Brentford but in the past visitors have been able to lock in and pay a daily mooring rate for a berth with services while not needing a CRT licence.

 

One wonders it this was a slightly porous entrance liable to result in unlicensed Boats on CRT water. 

 

Other question: Does Limehouse lock have a PRN status? 

 

 

[GUMPY]

Don't harbours off tidal waters have an obligation to provide "safe haven"  if required 

[Scholar Gypsy]

41 minutes ago, GUMPY said:

Don't harbours off tidal waters have an obligation to provide "safe haven"  if required 

This question has been investigated some time ago - not by me, but by someone I trust - and the legal answer is "No". 

Oh and on the licence question, it will be possible to book by calling the Customer Contact Centre. It's just not encouraged!

 

Here's a more compact version of my spreadsheet, with HWLB (adjusted for BST) and an indication of which slots should be available at Limehouse.

booklet.xlsx

Edited March 9 by Scholar Gypsy

[Mike Todd]

20 hours ago, Scholar Gypsy said:

After further discussion, CRT will be modifying/upgrading the website to offer the following slots around each HW (subject to the opening hours)
 

A – “outbound upstream (early)”                         HW-4 to HW-2.5 hours

B -  “outbound upstream (late)”                           HW-2.5 to HW – 1 hours

C1 – “HW outbound”                                HW-1 to HW+1

C2 – “ HW inbound”                                   HW-1 to HW+1

D  - “inbound from upstream (early)”                  HW+1 to HW+2.5

E – “inbound from upstream (late)”                     HW+2.5 to HW+4

 

So if I was going from L to T, I would book slot A, to Brentford I might take B, and to or from South Dock C. Coming downriver from T or B I would book slot E unless on a speedy boat!
 

The Trust are also keen to add some words to the website to help boaters with preparation and passage planning. I have started to think about that - bullet points (not paragraphs of prose please!) would be welcome.

add reference to where HW can be obtained (and make it clear where it is measured)

[magnetman]

3 hours ago, GUMPY said:

Don't harbours off tidal waters have an obligation to provide "safe haven"  if required 

I think Limehouse have achieved this by providing high quality waiting pontoons with steps to land. 

 

It is my view that these pontoons could become an interesting subject if there are no longer on site lock keepers to check the status. In the past they would have your Boat towed if you left it there with nobody aboard. Whether this is still the case seems an interesting question. 

If I am delayed on my way from Teddington I can use the pontoons for waiting but the signage says there must be someone on board at all times. 

 

It is quite bouncy down there ! 

[Scholar Gypsy]

Just to add that following discussions with CRT the new locking slots (see comments above) are now available in the usual place on the CRT licencing website.

As it says there CRT are producing a longer guide on tideway boating. I have fed in my thoughts on what that should say.