Marina mooring and CC’ing - are the miles enough?

[Arthur Marshall]

14 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

I can think of a couple of ways that the system can be abused by a CCer to their financial advantage.

Well, they certainly can't do it by taking a cheap farm mooring like mine, which is the usual suggestion.

Edited December 9, 2023 by Arthur Marshall

[Peanut]

Maybe the six-month rule, is to prevent boaters from claiming a Home Mooring to benefit from a reduced price licence, when they have no intention of staying there for any length of time. Giving them the opportunity to travel around the system, conveniently visiting marinas, at their leisure, while avoiding the hassle of having to keep moving on. Paying for a mooring hear and there, for a short break in cruising, to maintain their apparent status.

[Momac]

12 minutes ago, Peanut said:

Maybe the six-month rule, is to prevent boaters from claiming a Home Mooring to benefit from a reduced price licence, when they have no intention of staying there for any length of time. Giving them the opportunity to travel around the system, conveniently visiting marinas, at their leisure, while avoiding the hassle of having to keep moving on. Paying for a mooring hear and there, for a short break in cruising, to maintain their apparent status.

What six month rule is that ?

[Peanut]

Posted above, you have to provide a contract for a six-month mooring for it to qualify as a Home Mooring.

[Arthur Marshall]

1 hour ago, Peanut said:

Maybe the six-month rule, is to prevent boaters from claiming a Home Mooring to benefit from a reduced price licence, when they have no intention of staying there for any length of time. Giving them the opportunity to travel around the system, conveniently visiting marinas, at their leisure, while avoiding the hassle of having to keep moving on. Paying for a mooring hear and there, for a short break in cruising, to maintain their apparent status.

But at marina prices, half a dozen two week stays, each claimed as a home mooring, would surely cost you more than the CC surcharge? I don't know what marinas charge per week, been years since I had to be in one, but it wasn't cheap.

[Alan de Enfield]

16 minutes ago, Arthur Marshall said:

I don't know what marinas charge per week,

 

My experience suggests £20-£30 per night for short term moorings.

[Captain Pegg]

There’s plenty of different charging regimes. I’ve yet to find anywhere that won’t price by the night and some do weekly and monthly short term rates.

 

Prices start from £8.00 per night at selected canal society moorings. £25 is the most I’ve been quoted and I think £18 is the most I’ve paid. That’s for a short boat.

[cheesegas]

So on Friday I spent another half hour on the phone to CRT getting passed from person to person before they hung up on me. Useless. Thanks for all the info in this thread but I guess there's no clear cut answer on mileage from them

 

I appreciate that trying to get a small discount on license fees is a priority for some people so this thread's gone that way, but I couldn't care less about saving a little money, it's just if the CRT get funny about me being spotted just once near Harefield then again at Brentford then in Roydon in one year... I have no desire at all to get a long term residential mooring, it's not for me at all as I like to move around and not have to move back to the same spot in the system whenever I need to work away.

 

 

6 hours ago, Captain Pegg said:

There’s plenty of different charging regimes. I’ve yet to find anywhere that won’t price by the night and some do weekly and monthly short term rates.

 

Prices start from £8.00 per night at selected canal society moorings. £25 is the most I’ve been quoted and I think £18 is the most I’ve paid. That’s for a short boat.

Every time I've left the boat in a marina for a week or two it's been charged per day if under a week, and then a weekly rate after that. The cost is hardly attractive if you're looking at trying to evade the CRT price rise!

 

9 hours ago, Peanut said:

Maybe the six-month rule, is to prevent boaters from claiming a Home Mooring to benefit from a reduced price licence, when they have no intention of staying there for any length of time. Giving them the opportunity to travel around the system, conveniently visiting marinas, at their leisure, while avoiding the hassle of having to keep moving on. Paying for a mooring hear and there, for a short break in cruising, to maintain their apparent status.

I doubt it. As mentioned above, the cost of staying in marinas far outweighs the cost savings on the license. I pay between £70-100 a week to leave my boat in a non-residential marina. Price aside, I don't see anything wrong with your use pattern example, hopping from marina to marina? It's exactly what I'm doing, minus the staying on the boat in the marina. The boat's not overstaying on the towpath.

Edited December 10, 2023 by cheesegas

[Momac]

10 hours ago, Peanut said:

Posted above, you have to provide a contract for a six-month mooring for it to qualify as a Home Mooring.

This is not a rule.

It is just something imagined as a possibility by a forum member.

[Rob-M]

7 minutes ago, MartynG said:

This is not a rule.

It is just something imagined as a possibility by a forum member.

It was copied from the CRT faq related to the new surcharges.

[Momac]

8 hours ago, Arthur Marshall said:

But at marina prices, half a dozen two week stays, each claimed as a home mooring, would surely cost you more than the CC surcharge? 

Half a dozen two week stays at £150 per week would be £1800 (based on a 57ft boat)

 

[GUMPY]

29 minutes ago, MartynG said:

This is not a rule.

It is just something imagined as a possibility by a forum member.

You are wrong.

 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

6 minutes ago, GUMPY said:

You are wrong.

 

 

 

Reminded me of the title of a Tom Jones song

[Momac]

36 minutes ago, GUMPY said:

You are wrong.

 

 

Okay I found the reference. 

I read this as an example of how a home mooring may be proven if it is requested by C&RT. Note the use of the words 'could' and 'may'. 

So that means staying in marinas on an ad hoc basis a few weeks at a time is not accepted as having a home mooring unless a 6 months or greater continuous period of mooring has been paid for.

PS

There is  nothing new here really.  The need to maintain a home mooring availability full time  is  already in the terms and conditions .

 

PPS Is there any suggestion that evidence of a home mooring will be required before a license is issued? It seems  to me unless there is evidence to the contrary the current honesty system of a declaration of home mooring and insurance   will remain and C&RT may carry out checks if they wish.

Edited December 10, 2023 by MartynG

[Alan de Enfield]

1 hour ago, MartynG said:

I read this as an example of how a home mooring may be proven if it is requested by C&RT. Note the use of the words 'could' and 'may'. 

 

Exactly - A HOME MOORING FOR A PERIOD OF AT LEAST 6 MONTHS IS REQUIRED.

 

You may need to prove you have this, in which case a copy of your agreement is one way that you COULD prove you have one. If there is any doubt that you have "invented" your mooring (home made word document ?) we MAY ask you to provide evidence of actual payment - a copy of your Bank Statement COULD be one way to prove this.

 

It is a very similar principle with the RCD / RCR (which you seem to get hung-up on).

 

This is the requirement : XYZ.

One way you can achieve this is to build to this specification : ISO 12345.

If you don't build to this specification we may require proof that you have built to an equivalent standard.

[Momac]

7 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Exactly - A HOME MOORING FOR A PERIOD OF AT LEAST 6 MONTHS IS REQUIRED.

That is  not 100% correct.  The requirement is that a home mooring should be available throughout the period of the license.

Please refer to the C&RT terms and conditions which sets out the rules and requirements. This is nothing new.

https://canalrivertrust.org.uk/refresh/media/original/43943-general-terms-and-conditions-for-boat-licenses-june-2021-searchable-file.pdf

 

 

Something written in a faq section on a website is just talk  and not a rule or a regulation. The C&RT terms and conditions are  the legal contract that is agreed to when buying a license.

 

As with the RCR - the regulations apply in law. Not the chatter on websites which is just talk.

 

.

[Alan de Enfield]

16 minutes ago, MartynG said:

The C&RT terms and conditions are  the legal contract that is agreed to when buying a license.

 

Unfortunately your statement is in error.

 

Certainly - There are some clauses that are taken from various laws, but similarly there are many clauses that are simply C&RTs 'wish list'. They may well be expectations of how things ideally should be done, and are generally a 'voluntarily code of conduct' for the benefit of all boaters (eg running engines).

There are also blatant examples of T&Cs which contravene the laws of the land (GDPR, boarding your boat etc etc)

 

You may find it interesting to read the minutes of the Select Commitee prior to the granting of the 1995 Act

 

Extract :

 

BW’s QC  informed the Committee that his advice was that the Licence T&C’s “is not a legally enforceable document. It is merely advice which we give to our boaters.”

Asked: “what is the remedy for a breach of condition”?  he replied: “Ultimately we could do one of two things or possibly both things. One would be to revoke the licence as it would be, as the owner or the holder of the licence would be in breach of the pleasure boat conditions. The alternative would be to revert again to the section 8 powers, which we talked about earlier. In both those cases, the Board believes that this action would be inappropriate. We have no remedy for breach of the code conditions at all . . .” – hence, he explained, the perceived need for the mooring restriction powers they sought in the Bill.

 

 

It is also useful to consider section of the 1995 Act,

 

Section (5) of the BW 1975 Act extended the byelaw making powers of 1954, which from that point on “shall be construed to have effect as if the power thereby conferred to make byelaws for regulating the use of the canal included the express power to make byelaws for excluding any vessel from the canal, prohibiting the use by any vessel of the canal or prohibiting the use of the canal except in compliance with any such conditions as the Board may prescribe . . .”

 

BW, and susequently C&RT,  have never invoked the option to issue new bylaws.

 

Summary :

 

 

The T&Cs are not a legally binding document but, it does contain within it reference to legitimate enforceable statutes and byelaws.

Edited December 10, 2023 by Alan de Enfield

[Captain Pegg]

18 minutes ago, MartynG said:

That is  not 100% correct.  The requirement is that a home mooring should be available throughout the period of the license.

Please refer to the C&RT terms and conditions which sets out the rules and requirements. This is nothing new.

https://canalrivertrust.org.uk/refresh/media/original/43943-general-terms-and-conditions-for-boat-licenses-june-2021-searchable-file.pdf

 

 

Something written in a faq section on a website is just talk  and not a rule or a regulation. The C&RT terms and conditions are  the legal contract that is agreed to when buying a license.

 

As with the RCR - the regulations apply in law. Not the chatter on websites which is just talk.

 

.

There’s a further piece that deals with the circumstances under which you can change status from not having a home mooring to having a home mooring.

 

It’s not just the six month rule but also that the mooring agreement must run until the end of the licence period. So they really are only allowing for a one time long term change of status.
 

So you can see this is the kind of area CRT will likely be checking.

 

And does it not follow that at least part of the information CRT is currently publishing will become part of the Terms & Conditions?

 

3 hours ago, cheesegas said:

So on Friday I spent another half hour on the phone to CRT getting passed from person to person before they hung up on me. Useless. Thanks for all the info in this thread but I guess there's no clear cut answer on mileage from them

 

I appreciate that trying to get a small discount on license fees is a priority for some people so this thread's gone that way, but I couldn't care less about saving a little money, it's just if the CRT get funny about me being spotted just once near Harefield then again at Brentford then in Roydon in one year... I have no desire at all to get a long term residential mooring, it's not for me at all as I like to move around and not have to move back to the same spot in the system whenever I need to work away.

 

 

Every time I've left the boat in a marina for a week or two it's been charged per day if under a week, and then a weekly rate after that. The cost is hardly attractive if you're looking at trying to evade the CRT price rise!

 

I doubt it. As mentioned above, the cost of staying in marinas far outweighs the cost savings on the license. I pay between £70-100 a week to leave my boat in a non-residential marina. Price aside, I don't see anything wrong with your use pattern example, hopping from marina to marina? It's exactly what I'm doing, minus the staying on the boat in the marina. The boat's not overstaying on the towpath.

I think the thread took this turn because it was reported there would be refunds for taking a home mooring having initially declared as not having one.

 

I for one figured that would at least cover things like winter moorings but it appears not. At least directly.

 

The safe assumption is that the changes will make no difference to cruising requirements irrespective of how much time you spend in marinas. In any case I doubt CRT would give you a direct answer to your question even if you could get through to talk to them. The range requirement is arbitrary and cruising pattern requirements are not the same for every boater.

 

Edited December 10, 2023 by Captain Pegg

[Momac]

4 minutes ago, Captain Pegg said:

 

............ the mooring agreement must run until the end of the licence period. 

But the mooring agreement may come up for renewal part way though a license period . As long as the mooring agreement is renewed  all is good. 

[Captain Pegg]

2 minutes ago, MartynG said:

But the mooring agreement may come up for renewal part way though a license period . As long as the mooring agreement is renewed  all is good. 

In a case where a licence holder paying the surcharge wishes to change status and transfer to the standard rate the above is clearly not the case.

 

In order to make that transfer the mooring agreement must be of at least six months duration and run to the end of the licence period as a minimum.

 

Obviously if you’re a long term mooring holder the mooring agreement and licence period don’t have to be co-terminus. Surely nobody needs that explaining to them.

[Momac]

9 minutes ago, Captain Pegg said:

Obviously if you’re a long term mooring holder the mooring agreement and licence period don’t have to be co-terminus. Surely nobody needs that explaining to them.

I think it is necessary to be 100% clear on that point.

31 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Unfortunately your statement is in error.

Unfortunately I disagree

Terms and conditions can become part of a legal contract.

If the contract says ''I have read and agree to the terms and conditions'' then the terms and conditions  are  part of that contract.

 

On the Licensing section of the C&RT account page you have to agree to the terms and conditions in order to buy a license 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

41 minutes ago, MartynG said:

I think it is necessary to be 100% clear on that point.

Unfortunately I disagree

Terms and conditions can become part of a legal contract.

If the contract says ''I have read and agree to the terms and conditions'' then the terms and conditions  are  part of that contract.

 

On the Licensing section of the C&RT account page you have to agree to the terms and conditions in order to buy a license 

 

 

So you are suggesting that because you have signed the T&Cs that C&RT can overide the Laws of the land ?

[Momac]

1 minute ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

So you are suggesting that because you have signed the T&Cs that C&RT can overide the Laws of the land ?

If you have agreed to a contract  then you have agreed.  It's as simple as that .

 

 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

1 minute ago, MartynG said:

If you have agreed to a contract  then you have agreed.  It's as simple as that .

 

 

 

 

You do seem to have a strange view of the law.

 

Attorney-General v. Great Eastern Railway Co. (1880) 5 App.Cas. 473, Lord Blackburn said, at p. 481: 'where there is an Act of Parliament creating a corporation for a particular purpose, and giving it powers for that particular purpose, what it does not expressly or impliedly authorise is to be taken to be prohibited; ...

 

This was cited with approval by the same House in the 1991 judgment in McCarthy & Stone v Richmond LBC, with all 5 Law Lords in unanimous agreement on the point.

 

Here are three examples of where C&RTs T&C are in conflict with the law :

 

1) consent to share one's personal information where that would conflict with the current law,

2) the grant of permission to board boats regardless of the statutory constraints of the 1983 Act,

3) as would also be the case with agreeing to pay the costs of CaRT moving your boat off from where it was obstructing (BW fought and lost at least one case in which they alleged such a right to charge for doing so).

[Mike Todd]

2 hours ago, MartynG said:

That is  not 100% correct.  The requirement is that a home mooring should be available throughout the period of the license.

Please refer to the C&RT terms and conditions which sets out the rules and requirements. This is nothing new.

https://canalrivertrust.org.uk/refresh/media/original/43943-general-terms-and-conditions-for-boat-licenses-june-2021-searchable-file.pdf

 

 

Something written in a faq section on a website is just talk  and not a rule or a regulation. The C&RT terms and conditions are  the legal contract that is agreed to when buying a license.

 

As with the RCR - the regulations apply in law. Not the chatter on websites which is just talk.

 

.

And, interestingly, 6.1 makes it clear, contrary to some boaters' assumptions, the boat has to continue to comply with  BSS not just to hold a valid certificate. Hence, there is a liability to ensure that any modifications (or even breakdowns) are made/repaired to be compliant at any time CaRT care to check.