Steering a horse drawn barge.

[magnetman]

A photo unearthed in another thread piqued my interest because the barge does not seem to have a rudder. 

 

 

 

I'm just wondering if the gentleman at the starn end of the boat might be using drogues to mildly correct the trajectory of the vessel. I also wonder if this is a double ender which can be towed in both directions without a helm. The towline seems to be connected half way along the boat

 

Just intrigued me as there appears to be no rudder and also there appears to be something tied to the side dragging in the water. 

 

 

 

It seems to me this is a bidirectional vessel for local use. 

A rudder would be too heavy to carry from one end to the other so maybe they have adopted an alternative control method. 

The image from @mark99 is almost an identical boat and shows the 'front' is virtually the same as the 'back'  on the other boat. 

 

If it is the same type of boat then the same end is being looked at in both images. This would also explain why the cabin is in the middle of the boat .

 

This boat would be great with an electric motor. 

 

I have read of horse boats being steered using setting poles and the boat in the second image has some very tasty setting poles. 

[Tony Brooks]

44 minutes ago, magnetman said:

A photo unearthed in another thread piqued my interest because the barge does not seem to have a rudder. 

 

 

 

I'm just wondering if the gentleman at the starn end of the boat might be using drogues to mildly correct the trajectory of the vessel. I also wonder if this is a double ender which can be towed in both directions without a helm. The towline seems to be connected half way along the boat

 

Just intrigued me as there appears to be no rudder and also there appears to be something tied to the side dragging in the water. 

 

 

Having blown the image up to the point where pixelation is starting I seem to me that the chap on the back has his hand/arm on a tiller and what looks like a stern post is slightly angled, so may be the rudder stock.

 

 

I would expect the towline to be connected to the boat a fair way back from the bow, ooherwise steering becomes difficult.

Edited November 26, 2023 by Tony Brooks

[Pluto]

Both photos are of maintenance boats, probably steered by someone using a shaft at the 'back' of the boat, location depending on direction of travel. I did find that a bucket hung off the back of a wide boat would keep the boat fairly steady, and I have towed several L&LC dumb boats short distances on my own like this in the 1970s when there were few other boats around.

[magnetman]

In my imagination there are two buckets or similar objects possibly connected with a rope and all you would have to do is adjust it so one came out of the water and the other one went in the water to cause a mild steering effect. 

 

 

 

If anyone is towing a dinghy and finds it is disobedient then just tie a small tyre or bucket to the back of it and it will stay in line when underway. I used to have a yoghurt pot tied to each side of the back of my dinghy. Really helped when it was being towed. 

[wakey_wake]

I don't have a horse (I have over a hundred horse in the car but it won't fit the towpath). My interest here might be a bit... strange.

 

On 26/11/2023 at 12:23, Tony Brooks said:

I would expect the towline to be connected to the boat a fair way back from the bow, ooherwise steering becomes difficult.

I've been thinking about how I got out for exercise and do this otherwise entirely pointless thing of running from here to there and back again. It's not natural to exert oneself doing something pointless, and before the invention of the steam engine / electric motor I don't think many people would "go jogging"?

 

Expecting to be at some point later a continuous cruiser, I wondered whether I could tow the boat (55ft steel nb) myself, thereby giving exercise some purpose, and so I had got as far as wondering about steering and stopping. It seemed obvious to me that the horse can make it go, but what stops it?

 

One observation from photos is that the towing point is raised and closer to the neutral steering point. I guess this makes the entire boat function somewhat as a keel does, and reduces the towing line's mechanical advantage for steering vs forward force.

 

I also read recently (here? forgot, sorry) that the tillerman would pay out the horse's rope while starting off, to make it easier for the horse. I'm thinking of this as a bit like slipping the clutch in a car; it's not quite like engaging a lower gear because its lossy.

 

Obviously towing a boat manually & single handed, and therefore being not on the boat, has to start in the category of "stupid".

I do like the aim of it though, so I would like to see if it can be coaxed over to being merely eccentric. People usually respect eccentricity more than stupidity. 😀

 

On 26/11/2023 at 11:41, magnetman said:

I'm just wondering if the gentleman at the starn end of the boat might be using drogues to mildly correct the trajectory of the vessel.

[...]

The image from [mark99] is almost an identical boat and shows the 'front' is virtually the same as the 'back'  on the other boat.  [...]

 

I have read of horse boats being steered using setting poles and the boat in the second image has some very tasty setting poles. 

Interesting, I've never seen a boat (real or photo) steered by adding drag.

You'd need something big-ish, comparable sized to a butty rudder, shirley?

 

The Cambridge punting style (at the back) is steered by nudging the stern with the pole while pushing. Is that what you mean by "setting poles"?

[David Mack]

14 minutes ago, wakey_wake said:

I wondered whether I could tow the boat (55ft steel nb) myself, thereby giving exercise some purpose

Perfectly possible and I have done so on a number of occasions. You won't get the boat moving as fast an normal boating speeds, but once it is moving you can sustain a moderate speed without much effort. 

Gets difficult though if there are boats moored against the towpath, or vegetation of any height between the towpath and the water's edge.

[BilgePump]

19 minutes ago, wakey_wake said:

Expecting to be at some point later a continuous cruiser, I wondered whether I could tow the boat (55ft steel nb) myself, thereby giving exercise some purpose, and so I had got as far as wondering about steering and stopping. It seemed obvious to me that the horse can make it go, but what stops it?

I'm only nine stone and could pull along our 60' NB using a double rope (one at stern to pull, one forward of midships to keep direction) quite effectively on empty stretches with no moored boats. Don't pull too fast though or stopping the thing becomes rather difficult. You can do about a mile an hour like this, but you probably woldn't want to do it for more than an hour.

 

eta: DM beat me to the same points. Faster fingers!

Edited November 27, 2023 by BilgePump

[magnetman]

18 minutes ago, wakey_wake said:

 

The Cambridge punting style (at the back) is steered by nudging the stern with the pole while pushing. Is that what you mean by "setting poles"?

Yes. Setting poles are very large punting poles. They have the iron 'swallowtail' shoes the same as Cambridge punt poles but a lot bigger. 

 

The swallowtails are visible in the image with the ice. 

 

My theory about drogues is just that. A theory. A slow moving horse drawn barge needs very little steering input. 

 

For stopping back in the day there were strategically placed strapping posts. 

Picture of one in my gallery I wonder if I can find it. 

[wakey_wake]

Nice to discover I'm not completely barking! 🐕‍🦺

 

13 minutes ago, David Mack said:

Perfectly possible and I have done so on a number of occasions. You won't get the boat moving as fast an normal boating speeds, but once it is moving you can sustain a moderate speed without much effort. 

Gets difficult though if there are boats moored against the towpath, or vegetation of any height between the towpath and the water's edge.

I've boats a few lengths for various purposes, but nothing close to a mile.

I did expect troubles around towpath obstacles. There are plenty of stretches where it should be possible though, and at low speed plenty of time to re-board.

Best to remember that some places are not boarding-friendly, even with a gang plank, so I would have to expect to go wading sometimes to re-board.

 

Propulsion efficiency should be much greater for 200 watts traction on land, vs. 200 watts of propeller blowing water out the back. However given that my thought at was exercise + recreational travel + continuous cruising compliance + fossil fuel efficiency, my only speed concern really is whether it will cause problems for other people.

 

 

11 minutes ago, BilgePump said:

I'm only nine stone and could pull along our 60' NB using a double rope (one at stern to pull, one forward of midships to keep direction) quite effectively on empty stretches with no moored boats.

This suggests having one loop of rope between the two painter anchors I already have, and discovering the best place on it to pull. Thanks!

 

 

9 minutes ago, magnetman said:

My theory about drogues is just that. A theory. A slow moving horse drawn barge needs very little steering input. 

 

For stopping back in the day there were strategically placed strapping posts. 

Picture of one in my gallery I wonder if I can find it. 

Also given they were working boats, I doubt they wanted to add drag if there was another way.

 

Strapping posts are new to me. I guess they're not replaced when they wear out or become obstructions? And they tend to look like mooring posts to most boaters -> "where is the bollard for the other end of my boat?" 😀

[magnetman]

36 minutes ago, wakey_wake said:

 

 

Strapping posts are new to me. I guess they're not replaced when they wear out or become obstructions? And they tend to look like mooring posts to most boaters -> "where is the bollard for the other end of my boat?" 😀

 

Wooden Grand Union strapping post which I found in a side pond at Seabrook locks.

 

I transplanted it in a completely different place to confuse people as much as possible.

 

 

Which reminds me. I must see the dentist about that molar !